308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08) (Read 412 times)

tim808

308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08)
« on: September 21, 2019, 07:47:10 AM »
I’m thinking of getting another hunting gun (even though I suck) that can shoot beyond the 150-200 yards of my Ar in 7.62x39

I’ve been looking at 6.5 Grendel uppers since it is just an upper swap.  Also looked at getting both 6.5 creedmoor and 308 uppers and sharing one lower between them

I recently started reading about 243 and 7mm-08.  The pro I see is that they use 308 brass...which is readily available and cheap.  Bullets seem pretty cheap too

 6.5 G and 6.5 C components seem a little more expensive and not as readily available but I guess that is to be expected as the are not as old as 243 and 7mm-08

I’ve had reloading stuff for a while but with work and stuff around the house to do and my phone glued to my hand and in front of my face, so I don’t (won’t) reload

Do you folks reload hunting ammo?  Hunting guns don’t get shot a lot so I’m thinking most people just find commercial ammo their gun likes and call it a day. 

If I don’t reload, cheap/readily available 308 brass doesn’t matter.

Writing this, I think the 6.5G upper may be the most practical for me (low recoil, relatively light to carry).  Also ar’s are easy for swapping/replacing barrels (who am I kidding...I don’t think I’ll ever shoot out a barrel). 

But I won’t be able to shoot it for fun at the range very much.....since accurate commercial hunting ammo is expensive for range fun.

I don’t see a point in shooting cheap wolf Grendel at 100 since it may not be very accurate and could affect the barrel.  I can shoot cheap ammo thru my cheap 7.62x39 or 223 “hunting” uppers since I don’t care if it affects the accuracy of the barrels since I consider those to basically be bush guns (shots under 40 yards)
 
If this matters, I have family in West Maui.  I think they only have pigs on Maui but my friend says there is deer too.

My daughters are in college and may end up in the areas of Seattle, Idaho Falls and Georgia....so I guess it would be for deer hunting mainly in the NW.  For Georgia /SE I think it is thicker so 7.62x39 should work for both pig and deer

I keep thinking 6.5 G but that 243 and 7mm-08 keep popping up.  I think 7mm-08 has more versatility (bigger animals) than 243 but I may be too old when I move up for big animals.  Hah - probably should take up bird hunting instead

Why not 308 - I’m not a great shooter so I think a caliber that shoots flatter and resists wind would be better for me even if I only take shots of 400 yards or less.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 08:03:52 AM by tim808 »

Jmoto808

Re: 308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08)
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2019, 05:31:43 PM »
Yo Tim, I think I may have interacted with you or one of your friends in the past with some gun stuff sales. Ill try to help answer most of your questions above with the limited experiences I have.

1. Are you set on using an AR platform? I strongly advise not using an AR for hunting, unless its just for pig control or unless hunting from like a blind you can walk to. But if traversing through terrain and trying to stalk animals, a bolt gun is far superior with regards of ease of use in compromised positions, safety, and simplicity in the mechanism itself (less things to go wrong). Also a bolt gun is a lot more streamlined to carry in a scabbard or hunting pack. 

2. If you are concerned with swapping out barrels, go to snipers hide or longrangehunting forums, or PM me. swapping barrels on "certain" bolt guns have become 10x easier than swapping barrels on an AR platform. Just to give a quick snippet, if you went with a Tikka, remington 700, savage, or custom action, they can all have barrels that can be ordered and swapped w/ a headspace gauge and nut within 15 minutes. Custom actions can be swapped without having a barrel nut at all, its as simple as screwing in a lightbulb, no joke.

3. As far as calibers go, that is going to be a difficult one for you to decide. If you are 100% sure you don't want to reload, just stick with 308 and practice practice practice (this goes for any gun btw). Just because its a hunting gun doesn't mean you only shoot it 1x a year to "sight in" that is the worst mentality to have. Your hunting gun should be one of your most proficient guns and you should be comfortable behind it in various positions. We all owe it to the animal to make clean and ethical shots. But if you think you are going to reload, 6.5 creed can be great because at least it has some factory offerings. 7mm-08 is a great round but has many shortcomings, one being the very limited factory ammo and the fact that it can't push 7mm bullets fast enough to keep up with most 6.5 cartridges. As far as reloading supplies go, you can easily find 6.5 creed, 260 rem, 243, 6.5x47, 7mm-08 brass supplies on a plethora of sites online.

4. If you are purely reloading (or decide to). I would say forget the AR, reloading for a bolt gun will make your life much easier. And then stick with a common round like 6.5 creed or 260 rem. That way you can find a recipe on various forums that is within 1 grain of an acceptable load and load workup will probably take like 30 rounds max. Also, reloaded ammo is by far cheaper for the same quality of great match ammo, and you might not even find a match ammo or hunting ammo factory load that your gun likes.

5. As far as shooting distances, I honestly would say you should keep shots <250 yards, unless hunting bigger game. If you do plan on shooting at 400 yards, at minimum you should see if you can shoot over someones chronograph to gather velocity data and create a DOPE chart (via ballistic app online) or drop chart and windage chart so that you can make a clean shot. I hear a lot of local guys talking about how they take shots at animals at 400+ yards when hunting, but yet they can't tell you the velocity of their rounds or are using a BDC type reticle to make various "holdovers" based on what the box of ammo in front of them says or their scopes manual. The way I see it, if your gun shoots at best 1moa at Kokohead on a bench or prone, in a hunting situation you are probably a 1.5-2moa shooter. If we take a shot at 400 yards, that means at best we have ~8 inch variation. Take in consideration wind, adrenaline, unstable platforms, other factors, and that can lead to a gut shot or low shoulder shot, or skim shot. I don't know about anyone else but that is the worst feeling on earth, ya you might recover the animal, but not something to be proud of for sure. As far as stopping power, you willl not seee much difference between the above cartridges within 600 yards. But yes you are right, the 6.5 or 7mm bullets will outshine the 308 in margin of error for wind.

6. Sorry for the long post. Hope that helps answer your questions. Feel free to see what others have to say as well. I am by far no means an expert at anything, just sharing my experience between myself and brother shooting bolt guns to hunt goats and practice shooting 600-800 yards. My brother shoots a 6.5x47 lapua this year and I'm shooting a 260AI. Just to give you perspective, we were holding 1.2 mils at 820 for windage and 6.9 mils for elevation.

dv808

Re: 308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08)
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2019, 06:38:55 PM »
The Grendel is not 308-based.   The Creedmoor is...

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rklapp

Re: 308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08)
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2019, 11:30:30 PM »
.308...
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

tim808

Re: 308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08)
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2019, 04:25:56 AM »
Hi J,
My friend picked up your Zeiss and he tried to get one of your rifles a while back.....I think it was a creedmoor

Thanks for sharing your experiences.  It’s a lot better to learn from someone experience rather than me winging it.

1.  The last time I scouted, I took apart my ar and put it in my pack....I didn’t want to scare any hikers.  I’ll try my 223 bolt action next time.

2.  Ive heard it is easy to change barrels on savages so I got a savage model 10 or 12 in the cabinet that has 24” bull barrel and a choate stock.  Maybe I’ll convert it if it is as easy as a bulb.   Thanks for that suggestion... I’ll look into it

3.  Lots of good points!  I’ll look into a 308 bolt gun

4.  If I use a 308 bolt, my friend can help me reload for it.  Probably use youth loads using 125 gr bullets

5.  A lot of good points again.  My friend has a magnetospeed to help make a dope chart.  I try to practice shooting standing braced against the 4x4 post....hunting deer in the past we braced against the truck.  All shots were under 100

6.  Do you folks shoot at Puuloa or Schofield?  I’ve never shot far and need to learn to read wind.  Only go to kokohead so I didn’t try to learn much about reading wind.

Thank you for your guidance, I really appreciate it.

tim808

Re: 308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08)
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2019, 04:34:24 AM »
Dv808 - my bad.  I was referring to the 243 and 7mm-08

Rklapp - ok I’ll look into either modifying my existing savage 308 into a hunting rifle or just buying another 308

Jmoto808

Re: 308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08)
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2019, 05:54:38 PM »
Hi J,
My friend picked up your Zeiss and he tried to get one of your rifles a while back.....I think it was a creedmoor

Thanks for sharing your experiences.  It’s a lot better to learn from someone experience rather than me winging it.

1.  The last time I scouted, I took apart my ar and put it in my pack....I didn’t want to scare any hikers.  I’ll try my 223 bolt action next time.

2.  Ive heard it is easy to change barrels on savages so I got a savage model 10 or 12 in the cabinet that has 24” bull barrel and a choate stock.  Maybe I’ll convert it if it is as easy as a bulb.   Thanks for that suggestion... I’ll look into it

3.  Lots of good points!  I’ll look into a 308 bolt gun

4.  If I use a 308 bolt, my friend can help me reload for it.  Probably use youth loads using 125 gr bullets

5.  A lot of good points again.  My friend has a magnetospeed to help make a dope chart.  I try to practice shooting standing braced against the 4x4 post....hunting deer in the past we braced against the truck.  All shots were under 100

6.  Do you folks shoot at Puuloa or Schofield?  I’ve never shot far and need to learn to read wind.  Only go to kokohead so I didn’t try to learn much about reading wind.

Thank you for your guidance, I really appreciate it.

Ya savage small shank threads have kind of become the "norm" with all the new custom actions coming out, similar to the AI or dessert tech where you have a "common" thread and if the manufacturer can hold tolerances tight enough, you can buy barrels off the shelf and hand tighten. If you want to use your existing savage, I would look at Patriot Valley Arms and talk to Josh Bohem or reach out to Short action customs with Mark or Chad dixon at Long rifles inc. Those are the only 3 people I've ever dealt with, but there are a lot of gunsmiths who can thread barrels for savage small shank threads and you would use your existing barrel nut or buy an after market one to set headspace. Feel free to pm me if you need help with that.

If your 223 bolt gun is a remington or tikka, you could always send it to a gunsmith and have them open up the bolt face so you can shoot 6.5 grendel. That would be more than enough rifle in a 18-20" barrel bolt gun for deer sized game within 200 yards. And if you reload would be "cheaper" due to less powder and longer barrel life.

No we do not, since schofield has a pretty tight list unless you are DOD or military or know someone, and puuloa only allows 308, 223, and 30-06. Would like to build a 223 rifle in the future to shoot at puuloa. As far as wind goes, if unable to find a longer distance to shoot at, I would say your best bet is to get a 22lr rifle. What you can do is shoot the 22lr over a chronograph, take the BC from the manufacturer or trusted forum, and plug it into a ballistic app with wind values. Go to kokohoead, try to read the wind and "holdover" for wind at 100 yards to the best of your ability. You will find that sometimes you might hold .2 mil, no wind, or up to a full mil if a gust picks up. Then you can look down at your app and tell yourself, ok that looked like a .8 mil hold for that grouping, take a look at what the wind looks like around you, and then look at your ballistic app and figure out how much wind is needed for 0.8 mils, if that makes sense. Then it will at least give you an idea of how strong the wind is and what that speed of wind looks like downrange near a target. Obviously your wind hold for the 22lr will be nothing remotely the same for a 308, etc. But the wind value you guess will always be relevant. Hope that makes sense!

Feel free to ask more questions if needed, I'm sure other people on the forum may have similar questions as well.

tim808

Re: 308 based calibers (243, 7mm-08)
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2019, 08:25:52 PM »
Hi J
I think I’ll try a 6.5 CM or a 243, instead of a 308.  I’m a wimp.

Thanks for the pointers on wind.  I was watching a guy from Berger bullets, Emil Praslick, talk about reading wind.

I’ll keep my 223 as is and use it for pigs

A coworker and I are going to try goat hunting...maybe this weekend.  He has a 30-06.  I’ll bring my 223 but I don’t think it will be very useful for the distances that may be involved

I got to get/borrow a set of binoculars

Thanks for all your help!