The USA is great. (Read 19072 times)

ren

The USA is great.
« on: December 24, 2019, 02:43:35 PM »
Change my mind.
Deeds Not Words

groveler

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2019, 02:52:25 PM »
Change my mind.
Agreed!
However a Democrat free USA would be even better!

macsak

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2019, 02:54:03 PM »
Change my mind.

your a fascist looser goon

6716J

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2019, 03:05:41 PM »
Agreed!
However a Democrat Progressive Liberal free USA would be even better!

I can live and deal with Democrats...
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Inspector

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2019, 04:50:58 PM »
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2019, 09:27:38 PM »
The USA is not "Great".

We are the GREATEST!!

 :thumbsup:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Inspector

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2019, 04:44:07 AM »
The USA is not "Great".

We are the GREATEST!!

 :thumbsup:
If it were not for Trump’s tough stance on China, you might not be saying that in 20 years or so. The theft of technology by China and our government’s lack of balls to do anything about it has been breathtaking and most damaging to say the least. That had to stop. And I believe it has. For now. Even with a trade agreement that can be enforced, I have a feeling that once Trump leaves office, the technology theft will start back up again. And there won’t be a president with the balls to enforce our agreement. It may also be that the president we elect after Trump will be compromised by China. Like Biden.

I believe we are still the greatest country in the world. But if we don’t maintain our lead in technology, especially in our military, over the Chinese, and our ties with countries in Asia, we are putting our safety at risk. And it is that safety that allows us to continue to be great. JMHO
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Kuleana

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2019, 06:55:51 AM »
I believe we are still the greatest country in the world. But if we don’t maintain our lead in technology, especially in our military, over the Chinese, and our ties with countries in Asia, we are putting our safety at risk. And it is that safety that allows us to continue to be great. JMHO


The US is still the World's only true military superpower, but China will supplant that sometime in this century.  Moreover, the US is no longer and has not been the greatest nation on the planet for some time now.  Here are some non-military US-vs-China statistics to prove it, with many you can't deny some of which will lead the US to its ultimate demise.


Economics (According to WorldPopulationView.com)
National Debt: $23.08 Trillion (US - 1st),  $1.84 Trillion (China - not in top ten)
Debt to GDP ratio: 105.4% (US - 7th),  15% (China - not in top ten)


Education (Based on the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development's Program for International Student Assessment, 2018)
Reading:  505 (US - not in top ten),  555 (China - 1st)
Math:  478 (US - not in top ten),  591 (China - 1st)
Science:  502 (US - not in top ten),  590 (China - 1st)


In looking at the disparity of economics and education alone in both nations, it is clear which country is on the rise and which is not.  Moreover, it is easier to understand why the US can't be considered the greatest nation in the World and why some believe China has the potential to replace the US in that regard in its future as well.

As for the military, the US has the best military in the World, but despite its dominance, can't maintain a nation's greatness alone.  Rome did not fall because its military establishment failed them per se.  It was their military overstretch coupled with its imperial debt that had a lot to do with that.


Merry Christmas!

« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 07:01:51 AM by Kuleana »

ren

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2019, 09:03:58 AM »
There are some intangible values that cannot be measured and no monetary value applied to it.
China has no bill of rights. No freedom. No freedom of press. No 2A. No freedom of religion. They have an internal problem with Uyghurs.
And of course, you have no right what so ever to criticize China from within like the freedom you have to criticize the USA.
They establish themselves throughout the world as much as the USA taking advantage of opportunity in less developed countries. In the South China Seas they artificially build islands disregarding environmental concerns and other nation's claims. So much for western hegonomy.
China also has mandatory military service.
Here in the USA we are an all volunteer military service.
Here in the USA we have people who love this country so much they are willing to sacrifice themselves for it. Our military is not only a defensive and offensive capability but also is vital in maintaining relationships with other countries to help them with their own problems and maintain proficiency.


Deeds Not Words

Kuleana

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2019, 09:48:04 AM »
There are some intangible values that cannot be measured and no monetary value applied to it.

I agree totally, wealth acquisition via legal and illegal capitalist means should not be the sole gauge of a nation's greatness.



China has no bill of rights. No freedom. No freedom of press. No 2A. No freedom of religion. They have an internal problem with Uyghurs.

Yes and no.  Bill of Rights - definitely NO; No freedom - depends on what aspect of freedom are you talking about; No 2nd Amendment - DEFINATELY A PROBLEM; No freedom of religion - not necessarily true; the internal problems with the Uyghurs - only with those elements who are resorting to terrorism.




And of course, you have no right what so ever to criticize China from within like the freedom you have to criticize the USA.

Well, given the personal attacks I have received in my criticism of the US on this forum, it seems more like PERMITTED/TOLERATED SPEECH, rather than FREE SPEECH.



They establish themselves throughout the world as much as the USA taking advantage of opportunity in less developed countries. In the South China Seas they artificially build islands disregarding environmental concerns and other nation's claims. So much for western hegemony.

The only difference is that the US tries to control the planet with its military bases and strategic missiles, unlike China who only wish to protect their sea lanes of commerce.



China also has mandatory military service.  Here in the USA we are an all volunteer military service.

Wrong, China does has the draft apparatus, but has not used it to fill its military ranks since 1949.  Its armed forces today primarily are made up of volunteers.



Here in the USA we have people who love this country so much they are willing to sacrifice themselves for it. Our military is not only a defensive and offensive capability but also is vital in maintaining relationships with other countries to help them with their own problems and maintain proficiency.

China's military volunteers join and feel the exact same way.  Unlike in the US, who are governed by the restrictions of posse comitatus, China's PLA routinely are deployed in humanitarian and disaster reliefs mission at home as well.


macsak

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2019, 09:56:40 AM »
no forget all the pollution from china
it's a good thing HNL passed Bill 40...

ren

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2019, 10:05:57 AM »
I agree totally, wealth acquisition via legal and illegal capitalist means should not be the sole gauge of a nation's greatness.

Well, given the personal attacks I have received in my criticism of the US on this forum, it seems more like PERMITTED/TOLERATED SPEECH, rather than FREE SPEECH.

The only difference is that the US tries to control the planet with its military bases and strategic missiles, unlike China who only wish to protect their sea lanes of commerce.

Wrong, China does has the draft apparatus, but has not used it to fill its military ranks since 1949.  Its armed forces today primarily are made up of volunteers.

China's military volunteers join and feel the exact same way.  Unlike in the US, who are governed by the restrictions of posse comitatus, China's PLA routinely are deployed in humanitarian and disaster reliefs mission at home as well.

In regards to freedom of speech why are you giving this private forum as an example? This is not government-owned and you are certainly not in prison for it. WE can have differing opinions, express and discuss them - that is the freedom of speech.
China censors the internet and other channels of information heavily. The danger of not having posse comitatus is that China will use its miltary against its own people i.e. Tiananmen Square.
There is no policy directive of the US to control the planet with military bases and/or strategic missiles.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 10:11:56 AM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

Kuleana

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2019, 10:40:51 AM »
There is no policy directive of the US to control the planet with military bases and/or strategic missiles.


The proof is always in the pudding.


Can you tell me how many US military bases the US has outside of its domestic borders that are specifically mandated in the US Constitution?


Can you also tell me how many of those instillations house strategic missiles that threaten the nations in those areas?

robtmc

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2019, 11:37:42 AM »
Can you tell me how many US military bases the US has outside of its domestic borders that are specifically mandated in the US Constitution?

"Provide for the common defense" ring a bell?   Up to the military to determine how best to do that and advise the gubmint.  Borders are not mentioned, in case you missed that as well.

Inspector

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2019, 11:49:00 AM »

The US is still the World's only true military superpower, but China will supplant that sometime in this century.  Moreover, the US is no longer and has not been the greatest nation on the planet for some time now.  Here are some non-military US-vs-China statistics to prove it, with many you can't deny some of which will lead the US to its ultimate demise.

First of all, whether the US is the greatest country in the world or not is a matter of opinion. You look at things in a pessimistic way and I look at them in a optimistic way. Why you think your opinion is right and mine is wrong is laughable. You know what they say about opinions? Everyone has one. I don’t come out here telling you that you are wrong. You shouldn’t do that to me either. It only makes you look foolish because there are no facts that you can cherry pick that makes the US overall any less great than any other country. I don’t tell you that your opinion is wrong, especially since as far as my opinion is concerned, I’m right and you are wrong. See how foolish that sounds? Stop now before you look even more so. Okay?

The US has always and still remains the greatest country in the world. That is my opinion. Let me tell you why. I believe the US is still the greatest country in the world because of our freedoms and protections we enjoy. No other country in the world has the freedoms and protections we have. Plus we have freedom of movement which to me is one freedom most people take for granted. We are the land of opportunities. Opportunities that are not afforded to the general public in any other country. I am not saying we are not in decline in some areas such as education. There are other areas we are in decline. There is no question. But we are still far above other countries as far as all of the freedoms and opportunities we enjoy.

Economics (According to WorldPopulationView.com)
National Debt: $23.08 Trillion (US - 1st),  $1.84 Trillion (China - not in top ten)
Debt to GDP ratio: 105.4% (US - 7th),  15% (China - not in top ten)


Education (Based on the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development's Program for International Student Assessment, 2018)
Reading:  505 (US - not in top ten),  555 (China - 1st)
Math:  478 (US - not in top ten),  591 (China - 1st)
Science:  502 (US - not in top ten),  590 (China - 1st)

Not sure where you are getting your figures from but some of them have been misrepresented by you. China’s overall debt is around $5T, not $1.84T as you stated. That number you stated is foreign debt only and is only a portion of their overall debt. Their GDP to debt is running around 40%-50% depending on which year you are looking at. You should not try and deceive here by stating foreign debt of China compared to overall debt of the US. You need to check your numbers before you state them.

Now, if you include loans that China has given, their debt has soared to over $40T!!!!!!!! That is over 300% of their GDP and almost double the debt of the US. And most of those loans were given to countries that the IMF and/or the International bank would not give loans to. Which, by the way is 15% of the total world debt according to Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-debt-idUSKCN1UD0KD

I won’t dispute your other stats as I believe they are correct or close to correct.

In looking at the disparity of economics and education alone in both nations, it is clear which country is on the rise and which is not.  Moreover, it is easier to understand why the US can't be considered the greatest nation in the World and why some believe China has the potential to replace the US in that regard in its future as well.

As I and others here have stated it takes more than a couple of cherry picked stats to make a country great or not so great. I have already stated my opinions. Having such a narrow outlook on your country’s wellbeing and their greatness is your prerogative. In the same vain, it is my prerogative to look at all aspects of our country and know that we are still the greatest country overall in the world.

China might overtake the US in world economy, though their economy is so bad right now they have to manually manipulate it in order to try and maintain growth which eventually will catch up to them. They may not ever reach that point. They could collapse if their loans default on them. And they could collapse because they are manually manipulating their currency value. If they continue it will not end well for them.

As for the military, the US has the best military in the World, but despite its dominance, can't maintain a nation's greatness alone.  Rome did not fall because its military establishment failed them per se.  It was their military overstretch coupled with its imperial debt that had a lot to do with that.


I agree with you on this. But I will add to this what I wrote in a previous post to Flapp, it is our military greatness and economic greatness that allows us to maintain our freedoms and opportunities. Without these, we will not be able to maintain our freedoms and opportunities and we will fall from the top spot.


Merry Christmas!
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2019, 12:09:13 PM »

And of course, you have no right what so ever to criticize China from within like the freedom you have to criticize the USA.

Well, given the personal attacks I have received in my criticism of the US on this forum, it seems more like PERMITTED/TOLERATED SPEECH, rather than FREE SPEECH.


1.  As REN stated, your criticism is directed to a private online forum, not the gov't.  The Supreme Court has ruled that public gov't officials are required to allow everyone the opportunity to post opinions.  Those who abuse the privilege and break the social media site's rules of conduct can be blocked by the site, but not by the account owner.  Therefore, freedom of speech is being protected -- even online.  HOWEVER, freedom to speak does not include others providing you a free platform to do so, nor does it include a requirement that others accept your point of view as reasonable.

2.  You give out more personal attacks than you get.  Playing the victim card?  How Progressive of you!

3.  Have you been banned from 2aHawaii?  Have your comments been deleted by the mods?  Since the answer is obviously, "no,", you have no evidence for claiming your speech has been restricted in any way.

I rest my case.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

groveler

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2019, 12:25:02 PM »

The proof is always in the pudding.


Can you tell me how many US military bases the US has outside of its domestic borders that are specifically mandated in the US Constitution?


Can you also tell me how many of those instillations house strategic missiles that threaten the nations in those areas?
On foreign bases. If we were to fight a war would you rather fight it in Pyongyang or Honolulu?
Seems to me the last time we fought a war in Honolulu we got our butts kicked.
Democrats do such a great job of protecting America. /s
I don't think we deploy strategic weapons on foreign bases. Tactical weapons yes.
Given the modernization we have been doing lately. I don't think we will keep any future
nukes on foreign land. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2019, 12:38:43 PM »
On foreign bases. If we were to fight a war would you rather fight it in Pyongyang or Honolulu?
Seems to me the last time we fought a war in Honolulu we got our butts kicked.
Democrats do such a great job of protecting America. /s
I don't think we deploy strategic weapons on foreign bases. Tactical weapons yes.
Given the modernization we have been doing lately. I don't think we will keep any future
nukes on foreign land.

It's official!  Trump's Space Command just received funding.

Leadership ... and WINNING!!
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2019, 05:08:56 PM »
"Provide for the common defense" ring a bell?   Up to the military to determine how best to do that and advise the gubmint.

Providing for the common defense does not mean establishing military bases around the World.



Borders are not mentioned, in case you missed that as well.

I say again; the founding fathers did not believe in standing armies nor empire.  The only borders that concerned the founding fathers were located on the North American continent.  Are you defining US borders as being located outside of the continental US?




Flapp_Jackson

Re: The USA is great.
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2019, 07:06:29 PM »
I say again; the founding fathers did not believe in standing armies nor empire.  The only borders that concerned the founding fathers were located on the North American continent.

Are these the same founders who claimed land for England before breaking ties with the Kingdom over high taxes without any representation?

The founders explored, purchased/traded for, and settled more and more land as time elapsed.  In 1787, the borders of the US existed across what is today only 1 complete timezone plus a minor part of an adjacent one.

This is what the "founders" saw as their borders.  Not exactly that of a "continent," huh?  Context is always important when making a point.  You can't expect the founders -- working within the transportation and communications limitations, geopolitical environments and relatively low population density compared to today -- to have written strict rules of government and military applicable beyond 2 centuries of change, can you?



Same is true of standing armies.  it's not that they believed armies were evil, but that a gov't with a strong standing army could be turned against the people.  After all, they'd just fought against the British army controlled by a monarch.

The founders believed in militias, trained and equipped in times of peace to prepare for times of war.  AGAIN --- our military today is mostly reserves and guard units.  Active units when not deployed have training missions.  BTW, Federal troops can't be deployed on US soil to enforce laws except in cases of extreme emergency when authorized by the Constitution or Congress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw