Socialism works... (Read 45679 times)

Kuleana

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2020, 07:43:23 AM »
If you think it's expensive convincing the world you're too strong to be attacked without major retaliatory destruction,
wait until we see how much it costs to have a totally reserve and national guard based defense force.

What cost figures are you using to support your proposition above?



Countries like Japan can survive with a minimal military, because they have the US watching over them.  If we'd cut Japan completely loose after WWII, how long before China decided to do a little annexing with Japan's military forces wiped out?  Or S. Korea for that matter.

You really do the American imperial warhawks justice with your regional fear mongering above.

Moreover, it seems you know nothing of China and Chinese history to make such a preposterous and incorrect proposition.  China has not invaded any country for at least the last 100 years.  If anything, it was Imperial Japan that invaded China and the US that tops the list of foreign invasions during that same time span.



Korea still hates Japan for the most part for the way they treated the Korean population when they invaded.

This is to the frustration of US imperial strategy, since the US has always tried to unite Northeast Asia and every of nation in Asia, for that matter, against China.

drck1000

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2020, 08:34:00 AM »
:facepalm:

Expounding based on limited information and view. . .

Nuclear or "conventional ballistic missiles" are not particularly useful in defending the homeland. . . 

Before "some" people get all emotional and playing victim, no I am not an expert on war strategy.  Personally, I do feel that the US sticks it's nose in many places where I don't think it belongs.  That said, I don't have awareness of the bigger picture.  On the times where I was made aware of the larger picture, some things made sense when information to the public at large left many gaps. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2020, 11:30:15 AM »
:facepalm:

Expounding based on limited information and view. . .

Nuclear or "conventional ballistic missiles" are not particularly useful in defending the homeland. . . 

Before "some" people get all emotional and playing victim, no I am not an expert on war strategy.  Personally, I do feel that the US sticks it's nose in many places where I don't think it belongs.  That said, I don't have awareness of the bigger picture.  On the times where I was made aware of the larger picture, some things made sense when information to the public at large left many gaps.

That was one of my main points earlier which you-know-who completely ignored -- because it explains why his opinions are based on old and/or incomplete or inaccurate information.

He wants to dredge up "But China and the US in the 1950s did THIS...", which is irrelevant today.  This is 2020.  The 50s have been long gone for 70 years (more than 2 generations ago).

While he loves to predicate his opinions, predictions and arguments on the long-ago past, we have different players on the stage -- a stage which has changed greatly in the past 7 decades.

Most of us weren't alive in the 1950s.  But that doesn't stop some people from using those cries of "U.S. IMPERIALISM!!!"   when we all know who the real Empire has been for more than 3,000 years -- slightly more than the 244 years that the US has existed.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2020, 12:05:32 PM »
That was one of my main points earlier which you-know-who completely ignored -- because it explains why his opinions are based on old and/or incomplete or inaccurate information.

Inaccurate information?  Give me a break; most of your geopolitical positions parrot the imperial American warhawks and the military industrial complex it serves.




While he loves to predicate his opinions, predictions and arguments on the long-ago past, we have different players on the stage -- a stage which has changed greatly in the past 7 decades.

So says the person who still supports the imperial American military's posturing akin to the long since dead Cold War in the last century.




But that doesn't stop some people from using those cries of "U.S. IMPERIALISM!!!"   when we all know who the real Empire has been for more than 3,000 years -- slightly more than the 244 years that the US has existed.

What empire is that?

The only nation state that has military garrisons on every continent and naval fleets patrolling every ocean on the planet similar to the empires of the past is the US empire.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2020, 12:20:53 PM »
Inaccurate information?  Give me a break; most of your geopolitical positions parrot the imperial American warhawks and the military industrial complex it serves.

YOUR OPINION.


So says the person who still supports the imperial American military's posturing akin to the long since dead Cold War in the last century.

YOUR OPINION.


What empire is that?

The only nation state that has military garrisons on every continent and naval fleets patrolling every ocean on the planet similar to the empires of the past is the US empire.

YOUR OPINION.


Continents?  LOL!  You really had to use a shotgun to hit that factoid, huh?

The US may have the most bases worldwide -- often at the request of the host nations -- but we are not the only nation with a foreign military "garrison", as you put it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases

For example:

France:
 Djibouti – Les forces françaises stationnées à Djibouti (FFDj)[6][7]
 United Arab Emirates – Forces de présence aux Emirats arabes unis[6][7]
 Ivory Coast – Les forces françaises en Côte d'Ivoire (FFCI)[6][7]
 Gabon – Les éléments français au Gabon (EFG)[6][7]
 Senegal – Les éléments français au Sénégal (EFS)[6][7]
 Germany – Franco-German Brigade in Müllheim and a Eurocopter Tiger training center at Faßberg Air Base
 Lebanon – Dayr Kifa Air Force Base as part of United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon
 Chad – N'Djamena Air Force Base as part of Operation Barkhane
 Niger – Niamey Air Force Base as part of Operation Barkhane
 Syria – At least three bases near Kobanî, Sarrin and Ayn Issa[8] as part of Opération Chammal
 Iraq – Forces in Baghdad as part of Opération Chammal

India:
 Tajikistan – Farkhor Air Base is an Air Force base operated by the Indian Air Force and Tajik Air Force. It is located near Farkhor town, 130 km from Dushanbe. With this base India became the 4th country after the US, Russia and Germany to have a military base in Central Asia.[10][11]
 Bhutan – The Indian Military Training Team (IMTRAT) is permanently stationed in western Bhutan.[12]
 Madagascar – A listening post and a radar facility in northern Madagascar.[13]
 Mauritius – A coast surveillance radar system deployed and maintained by India.[14] As of June 2017, the current status of all these projects is unclear.[15]
 Seychelles – A coast surveillance radar system deployed and maintained by India.[14][16]
 Oman – A listening post at Ras al Hadd and berthing rights for the Indian Navy at Mascat naval base.[17] An establishment at Duqm for the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy. Duqm had previously served as a port for the INS Mumbai.[18]
 Qatar – India maintains berth rights and right to station its troops under mutual assistance pact.[19]
 Vietnam - Both India and Vietnam shares a strong military relationship, as India is also considered to as one of the major Defence and Strategic partners of Vietnam. thus, Vietnam has also invited India to maintain the hold of its Naval presence in the South China Sea region and has granted allowance to India to maintain its Air and Naval Base at the Cam Ranh Bay, in Vietnam.[20]
 Mozambique- India and Mozambique have strategic relations dating back to 1986. The Indian Navy had and also plays a very important role since the 2003 African Union Summit and the World Economic Forum Summit, as it had taken a consistent charge for Sea Security of Mozambique. [21]

Iran:
(These are the formal bases.  We know they sponsor other groups like Hezbollah in many other countries)

 Syria – A military base near Al-Kiswah,[22] Abu Kamal and several facilities in 3 different governorates[23]
 Eritrea – A military base in Assab.[24]
 Iraq – Several military installations and facilities in Baghdad, Al Anbar and Saladin Governorate.
 Lebanon – A military training facility near Beit Moubarak.[25]

Russia:
 Armenia – Russian 102nd Military Base in Gyumri and the Russian 3624th Airbase in Erebuni Airport near Yerevan
 Belarus – Hantsavichy Radar Station; Vileyka naval communication centre
 Georgia – Russian 4th Military Base in the disputed frozen conflict regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia (Russian 7th Military Base)[40]
 Kazakhstan – Balkhash Radar Station; Sary Shagan range; Baikonur Cosmodrome
 Kyrgyzstan – Kant Air Base, the 338th naval communication centre, the 954th torpedo testing range and a seismograph
 Moldova – Russia maintains a sizeable task force in the unrecognised state of Transnistria which split off from Moldova after the dissolution of the USSR, for peacekeeping purposes and guarding the decommissioned arms depot at Cobasna.[41]
 Syria – Russian naval facility in Tartus; Khmeimim Air Base,[42] Shayrat Airbase
 Tajikistan – 201st Military Base
 Ukraine – Operational base of the Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol, in annexed Crimea

Turkey:
 Azerbaijan – Buildings and structures in Gizil Sherg military town, and one terminal building located in the airfield in Hacı Zeynalabdin settlement.[49]
 Northern Cyprus (disputed by the United Nations[50] and all individual countries, with the exception of Turkey) – Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command
 Iraq
A base with 2000 personnel.[51]
Turkey has more than 20 military and intelligence bases in two provinces of Erbil and Dohuk of Iraqi Kurdistan.[52]
 Qatar – A base with 5000 personnel.[53][54][55][56]
 Kosovo
 Somalia – Camp TURKSOM with 200 personnel (could increase to over 1000).[57][58]
 Albania
 Bosnia
 Syria – Bases in Al-Bab, Al-Rai, Akhtarin and Jarablus with unknown number of personnel. New bases were followed at Atme and Darat Izza.[59]

United Kingdom:
 Afghanistan – Various facilities under Operation Toral
 Bahrain – HMS Jufair Naval Base (HMNBJ)[68][69]
 Belize – British Army Training and Support Unit Belize[70]
 Brunei – British Forces Brunei: Brunei Garrison[71]
 Canada – British Army Training Unit Suffield[72]
 Republic of Cyprus – British Forces Cyprus
 Estonia – UK led Battlegroup in Tapa: NATO Enhanced Forward Presence[73][74]
 Germany – British Forces Germany: Westfalen Garrison[75]
 Iraq – Al Asad Airbase[76]
 Kenya – British Army Training Unit Kenya[77]
 Norway – Bardufoss Air Station[78]
 Singapore – Naval Party 1022[7][79]
 Qatar – RAF Al Udeid[80]
 Oman – Omani-British Joint Training Base;[81] Duqm[82]
 United Arab Emirates – Al Minhad Air Base
 United States – MCAS Beaufort (training base),[83][84] Creech Air Force Base,[85][86] Edwards Air Force Base,[87][88] Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay (Trident Facility)[89][90][91]



So, please stop with the histrionics.  The US is playing THE SAME GAME as the rest of the world.  We just happen to have more pieces on the board -- as well we should.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2020, 12:52:21 PM »
The US may have the most bases worldwide -- often at the request of the host nations -- but we are not the only nation with a foreign military "garrison", as you put it:

Stop the politically correct, "at the request of the host nation BS". 

The US only garrisons those countries that they want to exploit, protect their puppet dictators, and/or prevent other countries from doing business. 



The US is playing THE SAME GAME as the rest of the world.  We just happen to have more pieces on the board -- as well we should.

Thank you for proving my point.

The US is an empire that is protecting its vassal states and their own satellites, while militarily bullying and surrounding those nations outside of its imperial domain.

Kuleana

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2020, 12:58:11 PM »
We just happen to have more pieces on the board -- as well we should.

Bravo!

Spoken well like a US imperialist chicken hawk.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2020, 01:11:51 PM »
Bravo!

Spoken well like a US imperialist chicken hawk.


YOUR OPINION

Please, which other country would you prefer be the lone super power, if not the US?

Be specific explaining why you feel someone else should be in charge.

BTW, saying NOBODY should be in charge is naive and dishonest.  That's not how global politics work.  We fought wars you think we should have stayed out of to prevent people like Hitler from being in control.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 01:18:30 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2020, 01:40:34 PM »
Please, which other country would you prefer be the lone super power, if not the US?

Be specific explaining why you feel someone else should be in charge.

BTW, saying NOBODY should be in charge is naive and dishonest.  That's not how global politics work.

For a staunch supporter of capitalism, it is very strange you would say that since pure capitalism works well when there is no government at all.

In any case, I believe in a World led by a number of regional powers, instead of one big superpower, which is politically and economically unsustainable, as the current US empire is learning the hard way.  Each region would handle its own geopolitical affairs with the only goal to ensure political and economic stability within their respective regions.

Borrowing and synthesizing from America's favorite presidential womanizer, Bill Clinton, "its all about the global economy stupid".




We fought wars you think we should have stayed out of to prevent people like Hitler from being in control.

To think Hitler had a chance to rule the World is nothing but Nazi delusional propaganda.  History has already shown that the Soviet Union already won the war in Europe after Stalingrad.  Moreover, many Wehrmacht generals never bought in to the idea of a Global Reich even before 1939.  Maybe the SS might have believed such pipe dreams, but the military as a whole surely did not.

drck1000

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2020, 01:57:51 PM »
The topic of Hilter ruling the world is actually a very interesting topic to me.  We'll never know the what ifs, but there are a series of blunders that he made that led to his downfall.  Yeah, that information is from historical accounts written by men as well as History channel type shows.  But damn I think he was damn close to ruling a huge swath of land.  Anyways, there's another thread on that, so will let y'all get  :stopjack:

Kuleana

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2020, 02:04:13 PM »
The topic of Hilter ruling the world is actually a very interesting topic to me.  We'll never know the what ifs, but there are a series of blunders that he made that led to his downfall.  Yeah, that information is from historical accounts written by men as well as History channel type shows.  But damn I think he was damn close to ruling a huge swath of land.  Anyways, there's another thread on that, so will let y'all get  :stopjack:

Where is that thread?

I am a big fan and student of WWII, particularly with many of the dirty secrets and inconsistencies among the so-called allies supposedly against the axis.

drck1000

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2020, 02:05:46 PM »
That was one of my main points earlier which you-know-who completely ignored -- because it explains why his opinions are based on old and/or incomplete or inaccurate information.

He wants to dredge up "But China and the US in the 1950s did THIS...", which is irrelevant today.  This is 2020.  The 50s have been long gone for 70 years (more than 2 generations ago).

While he loves to predicate his opinions, predictions and arguments on the long-ago past, we have different players on the stage -- a stage which has changed greatly in the past 7 decades.

Most of us weren't alive in the 1950s.  But that doesn't stop some people from using those cries of "U.S. IMPERIALISM!!!"   when we all know who the real Empire has been for more than 3,000 years -- slightly more than the 244 years that the US has existed.
Ya, I hear ya.  Old information is one thing as people with open minds can do research, instead of ignoring aspects that doesn't fit a narrative.  Being privy to information that isn't necessarily public is also something one should generally remain silent on.  Doing otherwise is sort of like going around "I know something you don't know".  That said, it shouldn't come as a surprise that information does exist that isn't released to the public.
 Even though, people can get so steadfast on knowing what they know.

Empire from 3,000 years ago?  Damn Sith lords. . .  :o  ;D

drck1000

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2020, 02:07:39 PM »
Where is that thread?

I am a big fan and student of WWII, particularly with many of the dirty secrets and inconsistencies among the so-called allies supposedly against the axis.

https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=31915.0

https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=27243.0

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2020, 02:08:23 PM »
For a staunch supporter of capitalism, it is very strange you would say that since pure capitalism works well when there is no government at all.

YOUR OPINION


In any case, I believe in a World led by a number of regional powers, instead of one big superpower, which is politically and economically unsustainable, as the current US empire is learning the hard way.  Each region would handle its own geopolitical affairs with the only goal to ensure political and economic stability within their respective regions.

YOUR OPINION


Borrowing and synthesizing from America's favorite presidential womanizer, Bill Clinton, "its all about the global economy stupid".



YOU EXCLUDED the inevitable bad acts of other nations, possibly Iran, China or Russia, which destabilize those regions.  In a global economy, what happens in ANY region affects EVERYONE (stupid).





To think Hitler had a chance to rule the World is nothing but Nazi delusional propaganda.  History has already shown that the Soviet Union already won the war in Europe after Stalingrad.  Moreover, many Wehrmacht generals never bought in to the idea of a Global Reich even before 1939.  Maybe the SS might have believed such pipe dreams, but the military as a whole surely did not.

YOUR OPINION.

If London had fallen, think of the reach the Germans would have had globally.

Delusional?  You have the corner on that market.   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

ren

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2020, 02:18:09 PM »
Deeds Not Words

groveler

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2020, 02:21:29 PM »
Where is that thread?

I am a big fan and student of WWII, particularly with many of the dirty secrets and inconsistencies among the so-called allies supposedly against the axis.
This what Democrats do to un-armed people.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2020, 09:36:29 PM »
This is where many who support the imperial military of the America is getting it wrong.


Question: In the age of nuclear and conventional ballistic missiles and the courage to use them, what nation does have the capacity or would foolishly think they can conduct a land invasion of the US?

Answer: None

Nuclear weapons are a deterrent to other nuclear weapons. When have we ever nuked some country that attacked us (outside of Japan)? The taliban attacked us, we didn't nuke them. If China tried to invade us, do you think we are going to respond by nuking them? Keep in mind unless we are nuking our own ground, that isn't going to stop an invading ground force. Missles don't take and hold ground.


Quote
Question: In the age of nuclear and conventional ballistic missiles and the courage to use them, what nation does have the capacity to conduct a land invasion of all the other nations that is not the US?

Answer: America

Mexico, Canada for starters. Unless you think we are going to nuke the Rio Grande

Kuleana

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2020, 07:52:07 AM »
Nuclear weapons are a deterrent to other nuclear weapons. When have we ever nuked some country that attacked us (outside of Japan)? The taliban attacked us, we didn't nuke them. If China tried to invade us, do you think we are going to respond by nuking them?


Two of the many reasons no officially nuclear armed nation, including the US, has ever used its missiles since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is the simple fact of mutually assured destruction in the case of a nuclear peer and the World condemnation for the environmental fallout that would result in the aftermath.

You say the Taliban attacked the US; when and where did they attack?

You claim the possibility of an invasion from China.  What evidence suggests China has ever invaded any of its neighbors in the last 100 years or will do such a thing against another nuclear power?  If anything, it is the US who is poised for an invasion of China will all of its forward operating bases in the region.




Keep in mind unless we are nuking our own ground, that isn't going to stop an invading ground force. Missles don't take and hold ground.

Mexico, Canada for starters. Unless you think we are going to nuke the Rio Grande.

What invasion force from Mexico or Canada would march their troops over an area that just been nuked?

Would you take a stroll with your family through an area that has just been exposed to high yield radiation?

ren

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2020, 08:02:45 AM »

Two of the many reasons no officially nuclear armed nation, including the US, has ever used its missiles since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is the simple fact of mutually assured destruction in the case of a nuclear peer and the World condemnation for the environmental fallout that would result in the aftermath.

You say the Taliban attacked the US; when and where did they attack?

You claim the possibility of an invasion from China.  What evidence suggests China has ever invaded any of its neighbors in the last 100 years or will do such a thing against another nuclear power?  If anything, it is the US who is poised for an invasion of China will all of its forward operating bases in the region.




What invasion force from Mexico or Canada would march their troops over an area that just been nuked?

Would you take a stroll with your family through an area that has just been exposed to high yield radiation?

"high yield" radiation?

isn't that term used to describe nuclear weapons and the amount of potential energy release?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 09:02:21 AM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

Kuleana

Re: Socialism works...
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2020, 08:26:08 AM »
"high yield radiation"?

isn't that term used to describe nuclear weapons and the amount of potential energy release?

Yes, I believe so.