I was going to post this in the "Has anyone ever wondered....." thread but figured it would be off-topic.

I tried to find out what type of ammunition that Kyle was using but couldn't find anything out there.

You know how there are tons of debate out there as to the effectiveness of certain 5.56/.223 rounds as it relates to self defense.  Lots of videos out there of gelatin tests, watermelon tests, pork ribs packed with denim to simulate chest cavity, etc, etc.

But this incident is a live case of a one shot kill, especially in the case of that stupid skateboarder that got shot once in the chest at point blank range and died.  As close to a home defense/self defense scenario and couldn't be more anchored in reality.

I'm curious.  I never was curious when this round was used in mass murder shootings,  I felt it inappropriate because innocent lives were taken.  I know this might not make sense to some but I did not want to disrespect those who died or were wounded.

  But I don't feel bad asking in this particular case because it was clearly self defense and I don't feel bad for the deceased at all.

Would this kind of information ever be available to the public?

Any rifle round that strikes a body at that range is going to do major damage.   A 55 grain FMJ going 2900/3000 FPS is going to blow stuff up. 

A 17 year old with a budget rifle.  Likely 55gr FMJ.  It's weak for a rifle round, but 3.5x the energy of a 9mm.  Any shot in the chest area will mess someone up badly.

It's a very effective and efficient round.  Don't let the cheapness deceive you.

For reference m193 has about 1300 ft/lbs of energy, a 9MM has about 350 ft/lbs of energy, at the muzzle. 

Cavities

There are tons of reading material on the merits and deficiencies of the M193 round.  Actually I was hoping that this was the round that Kyle had in his weapon only because there are people swearing that the M193 is a very capable round while an equal amount will say it is a piece of shit.

Some will say that this round with the FMJ bullet will make a tiny neat hole entering and a tiny neat hole exiting.  Some say it will tumble once entering and create a crater when it exits.  Some will say it will enter your body, fragment into a million pieces and exit somewhere else after deflecting off bone and cartilage.

And probably all of the above is true.  Depending on where it entered and what it engaged in the body.  And then there is range to target.

In the skateboarder case it was point blank range.  Similar to what you would encounter in a home invasion self defense scenario.  This is why I am so interested.  It's why I was hoping for an autopsy report or analysis of how the round behaved once it entered.  Did it just go right through but punctured the heart and arteries on its way out?  Did it tumble and cause massive tissue trauma?  Did it fragment into millions of pieces, tearing, ripping, and puncturing vital organs?

It was always touted that the hunting rounds offered by manufacturers would also be very good choices for self defense applications.  There's no doubt that these rounds are very effective.

It's just that the 55 grain FMJ M193 type rounds were always relegated to training and range practice, and that it was always argued that there are better rounds out there that can be used for self defense.

There were even accounts of our war vets saying the M193 was a piece of shit while other vets shudder with the nightmare memory of what that round did to their victims.

Probably would never happen but would love to get access to the autopsy report.

For reference m193 has about 1300 ft/lbs of energy, a 9MM has about 350 ft/lbs of energy, at the muzzle.

That energy is wasted if the projectile does not encounter something to transfer it to.   

If you're thinking of a home defense, the m193 would probably over penetrate and go thru your wooden/dry walls.  A HP round has less of a chance.

There was a video of a guy using a fragmentation round on you tube (35gr).  It only penetrated about 5 inches in ballistics gel.  So to me, that would be the best option if over penetration is a concern.  But too bad those are illegal in HI. The cavity in the gel looked like a waffle cone ice cream cone. Started small at initial impact and expanded .  IIRC,  some kind of 223 Varmin round.

A 17 year old with a budget rifle.  Likely 55gr FMJ.  It's weak for a rifle round, but 3.5x the energy of a 9mm.  Any shot in the chest area will mess someone up badly.

It's a very effective and efficient round.  Don't let the cheapness deceive you.

Agreeed, budget rifle, no spare mags, probably range ammo.

People are used to comparing pistol FMJ and HP ammo which have a big performance difference.

5.56 rounds have a relatively small difference between FMJ and HP due to its thin jacket and very energetic speed.  HP may perform a little better but there are tradeoffs.

If you're thinking of a home defense, the m193 would probably over penetrate and go thru your wooden/dry walls.  A HP round has less of a chance.

There was a video of a guy using a fragmentation round on you tube (35gr).  It only penetrated about 5 inches in ballistics gel.  So to me, that would be the best option if over penetration is a concern.  But too bad those are illegal in HI. The cavity in the gel looked like a waffle cone ice cream cone. Started small at initial impact and expanded .  IIRC,  some kind of 223 Varmin round.

What if they are "wet walls"?   

You might want to double check your "intel" on rifle rounds and typical residential construction. 

If you're thinking of a home defense, the m193 would probably over penetrate and go thru your wooden/dry walls.  A HP round has less of a chance.

There was a video of a guy using a fragmentation round on you tube (35gr).  It only penetrated about 5 inches in ballistics gel.  So to me, that would be the best option if over penetration is a concern.  But too bad those are illegal in HI. The cavity in the gel looked like a waffle cone ice cream cone. Started small at initial impact and expanded .  IIRC,  some kind of 223 Varmin round.

MK262 is a HP but it's not HP for expansion but a jacket design for accuracy.

What if they are "wet walls"?   

You might want to double check your "intel" on rifle rounds and typical residential construction.

CMO not used to worrying about overpenetration...

CMO not used to worrying about overpenetration...

Probably would never happen but would love to get access to the autopsy report.

I googled Anthony Huber autopsy and I got articles mentioning fatal wound was:

Located center mass with round penetrating heart, aorta, pulmonary artery, and right lung.

Clean bullet entry/exit? (probably)  Fragmentation?  Tissue damage?  No information. 

I googled Anthony Huber autopsy and I got articles mentioning fatal wound was:

Located center mass with round penetrating heart, aorta, pulmonary artery, and right lung.

Clean bullet entry/exit? (probably)  Fragmentation?  Tissue damage?  No information.

Likely not going to get official report until investigation is concluded, so as not to "influence".  Was talking about this with my MD friends a while back when I was researching SD ammo.  There are many levels of autopsy, at least in terms of level of detail.  Also that while most are trained at wounds and basic ballistics, they often don't get that detailed into the info they document.  Will have info on the entry and if there was an exit. But likely no detail on the projectile. 

The one thing that the info that was released says is "shot placement".  While likely wasn't due to Rittenhouse's marksmanship, results were devastating. 

Likely not going to get official report until investigation is concluded, so as not to "influence".  Was talking about this with my MD friends a while back when I was researching SD ammo.  There are many levels of autopsy, at least in terms of level of detail.  Also that while most are trained at wounds and basic ballistics, they often don't get that detailed into the info they document.  Will have info on the entry and if there was an exit. But likely no detail on the projectile. 

The one thing that the info that was released says is "shot placement".  While likely wasn't due to Rittenhouse's marksmanship, results were devastating.

Thanks for sharing this.  And the info about the "shot placement".  It looks like no matter what round was used the result would have been the same.  The bullet hit spot on.

Thanks for sharing this.  And the info about the "shot placement".  It looks like no matter what round was used the result would have been the same.  The bullet hit spot on.

Would be interesting to find out if there's an increase in demand now for body armor.   

Thanks for sharing this.  And the info about the "shot placement".  It looks like no matter what round was used the result would have been the same.  The bullet hit spot on.

Couple of my MD friends are hunters too, so their perspective on what rounds do to animals is also pretty interesting. Lots of rounds can be lethal, some take longer if hit further from “spot on”. They aren’t surgeons, so they haven’t much experienced seeing it on humans though.

some LE use soft points in their 556/223
PMC soft point starts to expand at 1.25", penetrates to 13"



PPU SP out of a 18" barrel.  less penetration, more expansion