Is sentience / self awareness, the best determination of whether something is a human being or not? 

What about just the fact that the human fetus is alive and not dead?

To me, that's one of the problems with the abortion discussion.  The pro-choice advocates refuse to accept "living" as a cut-off for abortions.  If they even care to accept limits, they argue "sentience" or "consciousness."  That's a reasonable stance, except for the fact that there's no consensus or test for that.  They picked a goal post that has no defined yardage marker -- they can move the posts whenever they see fit.

For me life is thoughts. I am me because of my brain.  If they can mimic that,  I belive you can "download" yourself if technology gets advanced enough to perfectly simulate your neurons etc.

Upload on Amazon is a good show.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

For me life is thoughts. I am me because of my brain.  If they can mimic that,  I belive you can "download" yourself if technology gets advanced enough to perfectly simulate your neurons etc.

Are you saying no other mammals besides man has "thoughts?"

Do you believe none of them are self-aware?

There are primates who can communicate in sign language and have self awareness.

I believe language is a major reason humans believe we are the only sentient life forms on the planet.  If we could communicate with other animals, we might find our assumptions were false.

My German Shepherd demonstrates more sentient thoughts than a good number of humans I've met.

Are you saying no other mammals besides man has "thoughts?"

Do you believe none of them are self-aware?

There are primates who can communicate in sign language and have self awareness.

I believe language is a major reason humans believe we are the only sentient life forms on the planet.  If we could communicate with other animals, we might find our assumptions were false.

My German Shepherd demonstrates more sentient thoughts than a good number of humans I've met.

There is several aspects of this.  Do they recognize themselves in the mirror, most animals don't.  Can they communicate?  Can they use tools/problem solve complex things.  Do they have complex social structure.   Primates come the closest but none as advanced as us.  I would argue we are the only true sentient beings.  I read some studies a while back in college that showed dogs are smart but not as smart as we think they are,  they learn behaviors that help them but don't truly understand why they are doing it.

Is sentience / self awareness, the best determination of whether something is a human being or not? 

What about just the fact that the human fetus is alive and not dead?

There's different levels of life I believe.  Just like brain dead people are "alive" technically.  We even judge humans on different levels.  We execute convicts, allow self defense.   Though I believe the universal judge of human life is the brain and sentience.  Without it you are just human flesh DNA.   

What about the human spirit/ soul?

I don’t necessarily ask in terms of religion, but do you think there is more to humans than just flesh and blood?

What do you do to explain out-of-body experiences, near death experiences, paranormal, ghosts, etc?    Hawai’i has a lot of obake stories.

Do you believe none of them are self-aware?

 

If a machine becomes self aware, im kicking the plug out.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

What about the human spirit/ soul?

I don’t necessarily ask in terms of religion, but do you think there is more to humans than just flesh and blood?

What do you do to explain out-of-body experiences, near death experiences, paranormal, ghosts, etc?    Hawai’i has a lot of obake stories.

I am not sure.  Since it can't be proven. I can't take a stance on that.   Similar reasoning that I'm agnostic. 

Scientifically it shouldn't really exist.  But that's no proof either way. 

I am not sure.  Since it can't be proven. I can't take a stance on that.  Similar reasoning that I'm agnostic. 

Scientifically it shouldn't really exist.  But that's no proof either way.

yet you take a stand on consciousness/sentience...

There is several aspects of this.  Do they recognize themselves in the mirror, most animals don't.  Can they communicate?  Can they use tools/problem solve complex things.  Do they have complex social structure.   Primates come the closest but none as advanced as us.  I would argue we are the only true sentient beings.  I read some studies a while back in college that showed dogs are smart but not as smart as we think they are,  they learn behaviors that help them but don't truly understand why they are doing it.

Recognizing yourself in a mirror as an infant is a learned "thought".  Once we are old enough to begin critical and abstract thought, then that changes.  But abstract thought is not required by your definition.

We can teach animals to recognize their own reflection, too.  So no, that mirror test is not valid.

New born babies can't communicate, use tools, solve problems or understand ANY social structure.  However, ants and bees have highly evolved social structures.

You are confusing the ability to learn complex and abstract things with already having them.  A person born with a learning disability may never grasp numbers, colors or shapes.  Yet, by your original definitions and criteria, they are sentient human beings.

If a machine becomes self aware, im kicking the plug out.

That won't stop it.

Judgment Day is inevitable.

He'll be back!   

yet you take a stand on consciousness/sentience...

That can be proven.... we are sentient beings.  Are your arguing we are not?

Recognizing yourself in a mirror as an infant is a learned "thought".  Once we are old enough to begin critical and abstract thought, then that changes.  But abstract thought is not required by your definition.

We can teach animals to recognize their own reflection, too.  So no, that mirror test is not valid.

New born babies can't communicate, use tools, solve problems or understand ANY social structure.  However, ants and bees have highly evolved social structures.

You are confusing the ability to learn complex and abstract things with already having them.  A person born with a learning disability may never grasp numbers, colors or shapes.  Yet, by your original definitions and criteria, they are sentient human beings.

That gets really psychological.  It's really a gray zone when you get to that.  Babies might be "taught" but at they really or just unable to communicate to us? 

That can be proven.... we are sentient beings.  Are your arguing we are not?

It's not a matter of being able to prove it in already born and developed children.  How do you PROVE a fetus is NOT YET SENTIENT, knowing full well it will be sentient at some stage of development.

List the tests an OB/GYN can do today prior to performing an abortion that proves the fetus is just a clump of non-sentient cells.  Please provide actual sources that describe these tests.

That gets really psychological.  It's really a gray zone when you get to that.  Babies might be "taught" but at they really or just unable to communicate to us?

OMG!  You admit there are no definitive answers to these questions?

But you seem so sure that we can determine "sentience" in a fetus before we draw the line between legal abortion and murder.

It's not a matter of being able to prove it in already born and developed children.  How do you PROVE a fetus is NOT YET SENTIENT, knowing full well it will be sentient at some stage of development.

List the tests an OB/GYN can do today prior to performing an abortion that proves the fetus is just a clump of non-sentient cells.  Please provide actual sources that describe these tests.

I can find some brains studies.

https://www.zerotothree.org/resources/1375-when-does-the-fetus-s-brain-begin-to-work

Complex brain is needed for sentience.  Just like a functionally braindead person might still be able to breath on his own.  A baby with a heartbeat doesn't mean it has a complex brain.

OMG!  You admit there are no definitive answers to these questions?

But you seem so sure that we can determine "sentience" in a fetus before we draw the line between legal abortion and murder.

Someone has to draw a line.  And we know that line ISNT in the first trimester.  Most likely it can be drawn safely in the 3rd. 

Someone has to draw a line.  And we know that line ISNT in the first trimester.  Most likely it can be drawn safely in the 3rd.

damn. you went straight for the balut. Couldn't wait

Someone has to draw a line.  And we know that line ISNT in the first trimester.  Most likely it can be drawn safely in the 3rd.

How do we know that for sure?  Name the test being given.

Did you not read the UK article I linked and pasted excerpts from?

Some doctors there, based on NEW TECHNOLOGY AND STUDIES are reducing the 24 week (3rd trimester) limit to 20 or 18 weeks.  18 weeks is 1/2 the length of a normal pregnancy, not 2/3.

In short, over time, what we know for sure has changed, which in turn has changed where we are willing to draw that line.  Hence, there were millions of SENTIENT BABIES MURDERED before these new facts were known.

 if we don't know for sure when sentience begins, and we only have a vague estimate on a timeline to roughly go by, then the line between murdering a sentient human being and aborting a "clump of cells" has never been correct.

How do we know that for sure?  Name the test being given.

Did you not read the UK article I linked and pasted excerpts from?

Some doctors there, based on NEW TECHNOLOGY AND STUDIES are reducing the 24 week (3rd trimester) limit to 20 or 18 weeks.  18 weeks is 1/2 the length of a normal pregnancy, not 2/3.

In short, over time, what we know for sure has changed, which in turn has changed where we are willing to draw that line.  Hence, there were millions of SENTIENT BABIES MURDERED before these new facts were known.

 if we don't know for sure when sentience begins, and we only have a vague estimate on a timeline to roughly go by, then the line between murdering a sentient human being and aborting a "clump of cells" has never been correct.

A majority of abortions happen in the very beginning stages. And 91%+ happen before your new cut off.  It's like you belive everyone waits till the last second.   

Most that happen that late is for medical reasons for the mother or the child. We all act based on the best scientific info even the article you posted isn't 100% fact.