If the ATF doesn't our 2021 legislature will

I am assuming you are talking about locally.  Which is why we need to go out and get more support.  This means getting democrats onboard.  Republicans have no power here.  This means you have to get along with them,  talk to them and convince them.  Being against everything they stand for just for republican principle is not going to save any of your or our rights.  Local democrats support abortion,  climate change,  etc.  You don't have to like it or agree, but if you scream at them how retarded and wrong they are you think they will listen to you when you ask them to keep your 2a rights?  There are many different types of democrats, just like republicans.  You can't convince them all but the centrist ones have hope.  Most people are more towards the center, even republicans. We all have to try get along more.  Half this forum is democrat hate,  then wonder why democrats don't listen to us. 

I am assuming you are talking about locally.  Which is why we need to go out and get more support.  This means getting democrats onboard.  Republicans have no power here.  This means you have to get along with them,  talk to them and convince them.  Being against everything they stand for just for republican principle is not going to save any of your or our rights.  Local democrats support abortion,  climate change,  etc.  You don't have to like it or agree, but if you scream at them how retarded and wrong they are you think they will listen to you when you ask them to keep your 2a rights?  There are many different types of democrats, just like republicans.  You can't convince them all but the centrist ones have hope.  We all have to try get along more.  Half this forum is democrat hate,  then wonder why democrats don't listen to us.

How much support is required?

There have been bills passed with over a hundred testimonies presented, many in person, against it versus 10 or fewer testimonies in favor of it.  Most recently, the ghost gun bill and other gun control measures.

Ghost guns were already illegal in Hawaii.  The new law seeks to punish LAW ABIDING gun owners.  Since the frame is not required to be treated as a firearm nationwide, anyone can travel to the mainland and buy a suitcase full and bring them home.  The law doesn't stop that, just like it doesn't stop someone from removing serial numbers or failing to register a completed build.

BTW, most untraceable guns are stolen with the serial numbers removed.  The ghost gun bill addresses  a small minority of those guns without serial numbers.  A solution without a real problem.  The impact is mostly on those who want to follow the law, and now sees that they must treat them like firearms.

If the ATF decides to ban 80% lowers and frames, they can just establish the percentage of completion to 50% .... 30% ..... 10% ..... 5%.  If the shape is anything resembling a frame or lower, no matter if it's a solid block of material, it would be classified as a firearm.

No Congress or Executive action required.

I am assuming you are talking about locally.  Which is why we need to go out and get more support.  This means getting democrats onboard.  Republicans have no power here.  This means you have to get along with them,  talk to them and convince them.  Being against everything they stand for just for republican principle is not going to save any of your or our rights.  Local democrats support abortion,  climate change,  etc.  You don't have to like it or agree, but if you scream at them how retarded and wrong they are you think they will listen to you when you ask them to keep your 2a rights?  There are many different types of democrats, just like republicans.  You can't convince them all but the centrist ones have hope.  Most people are more towards the center, even republicans. We all have to try get along more.  Half this forum is democrat hate,  then wonder why democrats don't listen to us.

So... how many anti-rights people have you converted to being self-defense/firearm rights supporters who actually wrote and submitted testimony or made phone calls to legislators voicing their opinion against proposed laws further restricting Second-Amendment-protected rights? And what is your percentage of success? What arguments did you use to achieve a successful conversion?

So... how many anti-rights people have you converted to being self-defense/firearm rights supporters who actually wrote and submitted testimony or made phone calls to legislators voicing their opinion against proposed laws further restricting Second-Amendment-protected rights? And what is your percentage of success? What arguments did you use to achieve a successful conversion?

Just saw this and it fit.  The theme of democrats can like guns.
https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/js1hre/i_34f_an_not_comfortable_with_my_husbands_36m_new/

I've convinced my GF, family and even some friends to not overly hate guns. Got my co-workers to buy guns or understand the 2a. Little things add up.  I am not a politician but if everyone convinced some people around them it will spread.  None to the extent of supporting but more of being neutral.  Remember you don't have to make someone like guns, just have them stop hating it.   Legislators think people want anti 2a so they do that if more people didn't care they wouldn't push the agenda to get more votes.

Arguments used, is the normal ones,  its the 2nd amendment.  Guns don't kill people, people do.  Advocate for mental health funding.   Teach them that guns are safe,  how to use it,  take them to the range so its not just some evil unknown.  You be surprised what people don't know. 

I would say success rate is 50/50.  But even a 10% rate is better than 0.

Just saw this and it fit.  The theme of democrats can like guns.
https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/js1hre/i_34f_an_not_comfortable_with_my_husbands_36m_new/

I've convinced my GF, family and even some friends to not overly hate guns. Got my co-workers to buy guns or understand the 2a. Little things add up.  I am not a politician but if everyone convinced some people around them it will spread.  None to the extent of supporting but more of being neutral.  Remember you don't have to make someone like guns, just have them stop hating it.   Legislators think people want anti 2a so they do that if more people didn't care they wouldn't push the agenda to get more votes.

Arguments used, is the normal ones,  its the 2nd amendment.  Guns don't kill people, people do.  Advocate for mental health funding.   Teach them that guns are safe,  how to use it,  take them to the range so its not just some evil unknown.  You be surprised what people don't know. 

I would say success rate is 50/50.  But even a 10% rate is better than 0.

please show proof that we are not doing the exact thing you claim you are doing...

please show proof that we are not doing the exact thing you claim you are doing...

C'mon on mac, you know how he means we start off every conversation about firearm rights with "1. What's your position on abortion?, 2. What's your position on "anthropogenic global climate change"?, 3. What's your position on open borders and amnesty for illegal aliens?, 4. What's your position on "medicare for all"?etc."

please show proof that we are not doing the exact thing you claim you are doing...

I don't have.  But the level of liberal bashing here is real.  Are you blind to it?  Assuming you don't care if liberals post here. Do you transform when in public amongst democrats to not say anything? 

I don't have.  But the level of liberal bashing here is real.  Are you blind to it?  Assuming you don't care if liberals post here. Do you transform when in public amongst democrats to not say anything?

please show me where i said the level of liberal bashing here is not real...

I don't have.  But the level of liberal bashing here is real.  Are you blind to it?  Assuming you don't care if liberals post here. Do you transform when in public amongst democrats to not say anything?

please show me where we said we don't care if liberals post here...

I don't have.  But the level of liberal bashing here is real.  Are you blind to it?  Assuming you don't care if liberals post here. Do you transform when in public amongst democrats to not say anything?

not liberal bashing. Most of your points have no validity; especially your defense tactics. i.e. calling out to a possible burglar / criminal to identify themselves. You throw empty ideas at us expecting us to consume it without any ingredient labels

50/50 success implies the anti-gun/gun-control supporters are openminded.  That's so far from the truth, it's not even funny.  They have their beliefs and agendas, and nothing you can say will sway 99%+ from their stance:  GUNS ARE BAD, AND THE US WOULD BE BETTER OFF BANNING ALL OF THEM EXCEPT FOR MILITARY AND POLICE.

You might say they believe in what they know, and preach what they believe.

Politicians have gone so far as to say, "If I could have, I would have said, "Mr and Mrs America, turn them all in."  Also, Retired and now deceased Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens was written about:

So reformers should take drastic action, Stevens wrote, to “eliminate the only legal rule that
protects sellers of firearms in the United States — unlike every other market in the world. It
would make our schoolchildren safer than they have been since 2008 and honor the memories
of the many, indeed far too many, victims of recent gun violence.”

I’ve argued that repealing, or at least reinterpreting, the Second Amendment should be
part of a bolder progressive agenda on guns, one that enables policies that reduce the
number of firearms in the US. Right now lawmakers are tied by the Second Amendment in
how far they can go, even as the research shows the US leads the developed world in gun
violence largely because it has so many guns — more than any other country in the world —
and maintains lax means, legally or otherwise, to obtaining those weapons.

These people in positions of power and legal authority give regular people confirmation that their ideas and agendas are not only righteous (SAVE THE CHILDREN!), but also may be tame compared to what NEEDS to be done.

There are plenty of videos of both celebrity and unknown types of people accepting invitations to go to a gun range and shoot for the first time in their lives.  The conclusion is always, "Well, I did learn that a lot of what I thought I knew about guns and gun safety is just plain wrong, BUT it still doesn't change my mind about needing to reduce the number of guns in the US."

You say "10% is better than nothing."  Wrong.  10% is the same as nothing.  If 10% of the gun haters suddenly started liking guns, that only means there are more law abiding gun owners getting screwed over by Bloomberg's big money funded anti-gun groups.

not liberal bashing. Most of your points have no validity; especially your defense tactics. i.e. calling out to a possible burglar / criminal to identify themselves. You throw empty ideas at us expecting us to consume it without any ingredient labels

Yes, because obviously calling out whos there and if its your mom and hearing a reply clearly is a bad thing to do. 

Yes, because obviously calling out whos there and if its your mom and hearing a reply clearly is a bad thing to do.

I wouldn't know as I don't live with my mom.

Yes, because obviously calling out whos there and if its your mom and hearing a reply clearly is a bad thing to do.

Please tell us when and where your most recent "house-clearing" or "room-clearing" training session occurred.

Mine was Front Sight Training Academy, 5 Day Defensive Handgun Course, July 2016.

I don't remember being taught to yell out for people to identify themselves.  We were taught to maintain cover and to NOT SHOOT if we couldn't VISUALLY identify the person was a threat.

In your world, mom would say "I'm here" and you would trust there's nobody standing behind her with a gun making her say that.  BANG!  You're dead.  We practiced taking shots at bad guys standing behind human shields.

Training throws a number of situations at you so you can learn to adjust your reactions based on changing circumstances.  Your tendency to simplify a situation down to a sarcastic "its your mom and hearing a reply clearly is a bad thing to do" shows how little you know.

I wouldn't know as I don't live with my mom.

Yes, but it might be OG's mom ...

 

Yes, but it might be OG's mom ...

 

OG's mom is AOC?

Please tell us when and where your most recent "house-clearing" or "room-clearing" training session occurred.

Mine was Front Sight Training Academy, 5 Day Defensive Handgun Course, July 2016.

I don't remember being taught to yell out for people to identify themselves.  We were taught to maintain cover and to NOT SHOOT if we couldn't VISUALLY identify the person was a threat.

In your world, mom would say "I'm here" and you would trust there's nobody standing behind her with a gun making her say that.  BANG!  You're dead.  We practiced taking shots at bad guys standing behind human shields.

Training throws a number of situations at you so you can learn to adjust your reactions based on changing circumstances.  Your tendency to simplify a situation down to a sarcastic "its your mom and hearing a reply clearly is a bad thing to do" shows how little you know.

Interesting,  tbh never thought of this scenario.  Haven't put too much thought into it.  I'm sure there are alot of scenarios but, my goal is not to shoot anyone.  In my mind if I shout who is it to identify its not a family member or friend, that's step 1.  Then I can visually identify or tell them I am armed in a defensive position.  I am not expecting trained assassins or seal team 6 to break into my house.  Most people friendly will respond to a  "hey whos there".  This works on the run of the mill robber, who should flee upon contact. Maybe I just have a plain flawed approach.  I am not an expert.  But I will take this knowledge and maybe figure out another system of identification.  I ordered a less bright light online.  Maybe I might remove the wall covered in mirrors.   

Interesting,  tbh never thought of this scenario.  Haven't put too much thought into it.  I'm sure there are alot of scenarios but, my goal is not to shoot anyone.  In my mind if I shout who is it to identify its not a family member or friend, that's step 1.  Then I can visually identify or tell them I am armed in a defensive position.  I am not expecting trained assassins or seal team 6 to break into my house.  Most people friendly will respond to a  "hey whos there".  This works on the run of the mill robber, who should flee upon contact. Maybe I just have a plain flawed approach.  I am not an expert.  But I will take this knowledge and maybe figure out another system of identification.  I ordered a less bright light online.  Maybe I might remove the wall covered in mirrors.

If you don't want to shoot anyone don't draw your gun. That was one of several concepts that was taught from an accredited organization and commercial courses.
That tactic of shouting to ID a friendly is not recommended. When I was younger I did that in my eval. I failed and my grader specifically stated that in my eval.

If you don't want to shoot anyone don't draw your gun. That was one of several concepts that was taught from an accredited organization and commercial courses.

omnigrub = feelings>facts

If you don't want to shoot anyone don't draw your gun. That was one of several concepts that was taught from an accredited organization and commercial courses.

 
I am prepared to shoot someone but its not the goal....it shouldn't be the goal to kill someone.  Finger off the trigger, identify target,  all these are to not kill someone.  Killing someone is the last resort.  All that legal trouble, property value lost, etc.  I want to defend myself and my family., thats my only goal.