SB 532 "Castle Doctrine" and civil immunity (Read 25551 times)

HiCarry

Re: SB 532 "Castle Doctrine" and civil immunity
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2010, 10:15:10 AM »
link didnt work, will try again, but using means holding according to the state

Homeowner: He was on my property with a gun so I shot him
Cop: Did you fear for your life or great bodily harm
Homeowner: No, but he had a gun and he was on my property
Cop: Did he threaten you?
Homeowner: No, but he had a gun and was on my property
Cop: Did he threaten anybody else?
Homeowner: No, but......


 The answer to the officers questions are YES, YES ,and YES. Furthermore, I think ANY REASONABLE PERSON would shoot an armed intruder whether the gun was pointed directly at them or others or merely being held.

ETA: What then constitutes a clear and present danger if not an armed intruder, be it a gun,knife, bat, or rock? Does one have to wait to be shot, stabbed, or beaten within an inch of death in order to defend oneself? I think not, and MANY, MANY, MANY self defense experts would agree, a person who is armed, IS the threat. Why do you think the government wants to disarm us!?

Actually, the answer to the questions should be, "I feared for my life and right now I am too upset to answer any more questions until I have my lawyer present."

Remember the reasonable man standard will be interpreted at each trial by the jury based on the facts in evidence. There have been a few cases I have read about (in other states with similar types of "castle doctrine" laws) where an over zealous homeowner shot someone and lost their case in court because of the type of response I illustrated in my previous post or that the circumstances didn't raise to the threshhold in the statuatory language. My point, which is consistent with all of my previously stated opinions on the use of deadly force, is to avoid it if possible, and if necessary be damn sure of the need and don't talk to the police, except to say your felt  your life was being threatened or you feared for your life, and wait for your lawyer.

If you want to test the law and shoot someone who may have a weapon on your property but is otherwise not presenting a clear threat, go ahead. Personally, I wouldn't take the chance, but that's just me. And, don't get me wrong. Personally I think you should be able to assume that anyone forcibly breaking into your house is a threat and the use of deadly force would be apppropriate and legal, and that there should be no threat of civil liability to the homeowner. Unfortunately, this is not what this bill (and hopefully law) says. And, especially in terms of deciding to use deadly force, one should be completely familiar with what the law actually says so as not to expose yourself to any unnecessary legal risks.

 

Rookie808

Re: SB 532 "Castle Doctrine" and civil immunity
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2010, 02:33:03 PM »
i think hicarry makes a lot of sense.  just be sure if u shoot them u kill them so theres only one side of the story to tell. 

HiCarry

Re: SB 532 "Castle Doctrine" and civil immunity
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2010, 04:13:12 PM »
i think hicarry makes a lot of sense.  just be sure if u shoot them u kill them so theres only one side of the story to tell. 

Thanks, just remember, you shot to stop the threat. Not to kill. And, that should come out in the legal arena, under the supervision of your lawyer, not at the scene. The only thing that should be said at the time of the shooting is: I was in fear of my life and I think I am too upset to talk right now. And then wait for your lawyer.

And, in response to tonsofguns: I don't want you to misunderstand my position here. If you feel there is a threat, then take the appropriate action as you see fit. And no, you do not have to wait to be assaulted before you can assume a legitimate threat to your life or health is exists. As a matter of fact, there is a commentary to HRS 703-304, that says "The actor may make his defensive move without waiting for his assailant to load his gun or to summon reinforcements" clearly indicating that principle. All I am saying is that you must be careful should you find yourself in the situation where there may be a question of a legitimate threat (as defined in the statutory language). And you are right, many "self-defense experts" recognize that threats can come from many different items (guns, knives, bats, etc.) and that distance from the potential threat and ability of the perpetrator to carry out the threat are key to determining the level and veracity of the threat. My only concern in discussing this bill is that no one goes away thinking that they can shoot (or otherwise "defend" themselves with lethal force) based merely on the fact that someone was on their property with some type of weapon absent some other evidence of a credible threat. 

Another example might be that you wake up one night to see what appears to be a "civillian" armed with a gun walking around your home. He appears to be looking for something, but is not actively trying to get into your house. Do you shoot? Based on the facts as I described, assume you do. Are you immune from civil liability and can you utilize a self-defense claim? I say it depends, but it would be unlikely that you'd be successful in claiming either. Now, assume that the person you shot was a plain clothes police office searching for a criminal or your new neighbor who had just chased off an intruder and was looking for them while waiting for the police to show up. Now, any claim of self defense or attempt to claim civil immunity is sure to fail because in both cases there was no crime being committed and your decision to shoot would likely not be deemed "reasonable" under the circumstances.

tonsofguns

Re: SB 532 "Castle Doctrine" and civil immunity
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2010, 07:45:48 PM »
This is the kind of decision that takes some consideration. It will be up to the homeowner/guest to feel threatened. Then the answers will be YES, YES, and YES.

On a side note, I hope I never get put in that situation.

Agreed...although I forgot to say that the person answering those officers questions should be your LAWYER!