Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range (Read 25679 times)

Kingkeoni

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2012, 07:53:35 AM »
One bullet could have hit another bullet in the berm sending it flying up and over the roof. ?

Or there could have a mid air collision of two bullets due to two very skilled operatives "curving" their bullets, causing a catastrophic occurrence of such epidemic proportions that every window on every car within a ten mile radius was endangered.

We're just lucky that it was only one window.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

GZire

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2012, 07:56:22 AM »

Have you ever looked at the roof of the silhouette range. Many bullets and fragments up there. Ask any of the RO's about ricochet fragments.

I haven't looked on that side as I don't typically go there.  I have caught a ricochet before though on the HRA bay.  45 acp to the shin after shooting metal plates. 

While I suppose it's possible to get a ricochet I too feel that it's asking a bit much unless as you (others) are thinking it was errant and hit something other than the soil berm in back of the targets.

BUD

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2012, 09:08:50 AM »
maybe.......there was a second shooter.........on the grassy knoll..........
It is what it is.

Tom_G

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2012, 09:24:58 AM »
I've been standing in action bay 1 and had a ricochet from action bay 2 land at my feet with a pretty considerable "thunk."  I'm thinking that this incident isn't as far-fetched as most of you believe. 
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

Bigkahuna808

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Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2012, 10:07:03 AM »
Time to call Myth busters

urdust

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2012, 12:58:38 PM »
Guess i gotta think about catching the bus the to range.  Sorry, it's jus hard to believe.

230RN

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Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2012, 01:48:06 PM »
^ You can carry firearms on a bus?


Not that that glass breakage couldn't happen, it's just one of those weird things that one wonders about the chances involved and how they could happen.  Like, as I mentioned, maybe the rotational energy was enough if the tumbling, spinning bullet happend to tap the glass by one side or the base of the bullet

Bullets do some weird things.  There's long been a legend about bullets hitting ice and then sitting there spinning on the ice due to their intial rotation from the rifling.  Trappers and mountain men have reported this phenomenon for a hundred(?) years and they were dismissed as mountain madness.

I've heard that one poo-pooed for decades and never bothered to try it, thinking it was pure BS. 

But....

Pistol bullet


Coarse language warning:

Rifle bullet



It's now a fairly well-known phenomenon. Use your favortie search engine for "bullets spinning on ice."


FYI (somebody's sure to ask) handgun bullets will spin out of the barrel anywhere from, say, 20,000 RPM to maybe 80,000 RPM. Rifles spin them up much faster than that, up to 250,000 RPM. An exact number can be calculated for your gun from the rifling twist and the muzzle velocity.

Terry, 230RN

« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 02:13:49 PM by 230RN »
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

Tom_G

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2012, 02:10:10 PM »
^ You can carry firearms on a bus?

Nope.  I researched this for an article in the Hawaii Rifleman.  The C&C rules governing TheBus prohibit it.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

armsinc

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2012, 02:57:11 PM »
A 9mm bullet ricochet from the berm, over the roof of the pistol range and onto a parked car.

I just have a hard time believing that.

That's a hell of a lot of energy necessary for that.

What's more believable to me is that some kid picked up a bullet off the ground and threw it at a car.

I wasn't there so I don't know but that just seems more plausible to me.

I agree
ArmsInc Hawaii

Teichi

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2012, 05:36:48 PM »
Earth and gravel backstops soak up the FMJs better that hard rock. FMJ bullets are notorious for ricochets. That is why I tell people not to shoot at the rocks above and behind the backstop. I'll even turn mean RO on them if they keep shooting at the rocks for fun. It is not a safe practice.

I was able to find the offending bullet by analyzing the impact and fracture pattern of the broken glass. The surface layer  was broken in a spider web pattern, but smaller fragmenting was located on the 5 o'clock position indicating that the projectile impacted from a high angle from centerline or right side of the pistol range. The bullet was located under the adjacent car at a position that confirmed my estimate of the origin.

Just because you've haven't seen it happen doesn't make it not true.

ren

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2012, 06:08:29 PM »
^ You can carry firearms on a bus?


Not that that glass breakage couldn't happen, it's just one of those weird things that one wonders about the chances involved and how they could happen.  Like, as I mentioned, maybe the rotational energy was enough if the tumbling, spinning bullet happend to tap the glass by one side or the base of the bullet

Bullets do some weird things.  There's long been a legend about bullets hitting ice and then sitting there spinning on the ice due to their intial rotation from the rifling.  Trappers and mountain men have reported this phenomenon for a hundred(?) years and they were dismissed as mountain madness.

I've heard that one poo-pooed for decades and never bothered to try it, thinking it was pure BS. 

But....

Pistol bullet


Coarse language warning:

Rifle bullet



It's now a fairly well-known phenomenon. Use your favortie search engine for "bullets spinning on ice."


FYI (somebody's sure to ask) handgun bullets will spin out of the barrel anywhere from, say, 20,000 RPM to maybe 80,000 RPM. Rifles spin them up much faster than that, up to 250,000 RPM. An exact number can be calculated for your gun from the rifling twist and the muzzle velocity.

Terry, 230RN

If it hits the ice shouldn't the bullet be deformed? The vids looks like the bullet was spun like a top.
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zippz

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2012, 09:45:18 PM »
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/38569-mythbusters-triple-ricochet-video.htm

The one in a million chance ricochet is possible, as I'm sure more than a million bullets were fired at the range.  Bullet could have hit a rock or bullet on the backstop, ricocheted up on some rocks, and come back over.  I'm sure it happens  occasionally but ends up in the grass.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 09:53:49 PM by zippz »

K30l4

Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2012, 09:58:14 PM »
Nope.  I researched this for an article in the Hawaii Rifleman.  The C&C rules governing TheBus prohibit it.

Someone else asked the same question in another thread regarding transportation of a firearm on the bus. Tom is correct that it is prohibited to transport weapons on TheBus. A bus driver will not ask a passenger to disclose the contents of a bag. Just saying.

230RN

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Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2012, 05:28:03 AM »
If it hits the ice shouldn't the bullet be deformed? The vids looks like the bullet was spun like a top.

I agree about the deformation part, which I can't figure out.  Maybe ice has some special little-known property under high impact velocities that makes it act like a sheet of rubber or something, then the bullet just sits there using up its considerable rotational energy.

As I said, this phenomenon has been reported for a long time, but was usually dismissed as being tall tales by mountain men, who are generally a little bit dotty anyhow.  After all, who would voluntarily trudge around the mountains all winter in "ten feet of snow and twenty below" except someone who was a bit "off" in the head?  :)

But with the advent of the internet and portable video cameras, it has been sufficiently documented, to my mind, to qualify as a real phenomenon worthy of real physicists' attention. 

After all, one of the parameters of scientific investigation is that the experiment has to be repeatable by independent observers.  It's conceivable that some kind of fraud has been perpetrated by a succession of tricksters... maybe they hid a set of induction motor coils under the water in the previous fall, ha-ha, but the bullets don't have to spin vertically.  Some of them just lie there and spin on their sides.

But Mythbusters dug around up in a frozen lake in a snowstorm to verify it.  They had difficulties, but they also reported it via video.  I basically tend to trust Mythbusters:



Why trust them?  Because they've got a good thing going with their experimentation, and I don't think they'd ruin that by perpetrating fraud.

As far as I can tell, there aren't many places in Hawaii where you yourselves could repeat these experiments.

Again,  I had heard about this decades ago from a buddy of mine who said he had seen it happen with his own baby-blue eyes, and I thought he was putting me on, so I just let it go, even though there were occasional other reports of it I had read about.

However, repetition, even by "unqualified" observers, and even by "anecdotal" reports, makes me pretty damned sure I was wrong by not believing it in the first place.

After all, lets face it.  At root, all science is ultimately based on initial anecdotes.

Maybe very cold ice does act like a tough rubber sheet under high impact velocities. 

In which case, maybe I'll invent a flak jacket made out of ice.  :thumbsup:

Terry, 230RN

AFTERTHOUGHT ON THE BULLET DEFORMATION QUESTION (Optional reading):  Strange things do happen with high-velocity impacts.  For example, did you ever wonder how come most of the craters on the moon are circular?  It should be obvious that not all impacts come from directly above, or perpendicular to the moon's surface, yet the overwhelming majority of them are circular. Very few of them are oval or elliptical shapes, as may be expected from the number of objects hitting it at an angle. 

The answer lies in the fact that the shock waves from the initial impact radiate outward in a circular (or shperical) pattern far faster than the speed of sound in the moon's material, so the crater formed is usually circular.  Only objects hitting the moon at very low angles (I think it was 20° or less) form oval craters.

So it seems possible to me that the initial shock wave of the bullet's impact  proceeds through the ice, shattering it in advance of the bullet's travel, forming a dense mush which slows it down quickly but without deforming it.  After all, it's not like hitting a steel plate, where the tensile strengths of both the plate and the bullet are roughly equal.  Just a theory.  Which is why I think real physicists shuld be interested in the phenomenon.


« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 07:24:16 AM by 230RN »
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

GZire

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2012, 07:24:04 AM »
If it hits the ice shouldn't the bullet be deformed? The vids looks like the bullet was spun like a top.

We've recovered bullets from bowling pins that were not (significantly) deformed.

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Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2012, 10:17:46 PM »
sounds like some kaa kaa pee pee... but hey I wasn't dea... ???  ??? ;D :P :thumbsup:

Inspector

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2012, 10:30:16 PM »
We've recovered bullets from bowling pins that were not (significantly) deformed.
Thought you bowled with a ball? Why would you bowl using bullets? :rofl:
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Kingkeoni

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2012, 12:46:10 AM »
sounds like some kaa kaa pee pee... but hey I wasn't dea... ???  ??? ;D :P :thumbsup:

Bro come on, that's not even nice.

Lets stick with proper terminology.

It would be more politically correct to say "caca poopoo"
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Tom_G

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2012, 07:33:52 AM »
Thought you bowled with a ball? Why would you bowl using bullets? :rofl:

If you've never bowled with bullets, you've never bowled!
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

dubya

Re: Ricochet Breaks Car Window at Koko Head Pistol Range
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2012, 08:04:29 AM »
A car window was shattered today around noon by a 9mm bullet that ricocheted from the backstop area at the pistol range, over the firing line, and into the parking area fronting the pistol range. The bullet did not penetrate the safety glass and bounced under the adjacent car. It looked to be a 124gr FMJ. The bullet jacket was 100% intact, but showed heavy deformation from contact with basalt rock.

Shoot at only authorized targets.

Do not shoot at targets of opportunity on the rocky hill in back of the range.

Wear eye protection and a hat

Hope it works out for the car owner!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 08:11:54 AM by dubya »