https://rumble.com/vu7rh5-atf-has-a-national-database-with-nearly-a-billion-guns-on-it-what-for.html

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Solving gun crimes?
Gun confiscation?
General number tracking?

Good Question

Solving gun crimes?
Gun confiscation?
General number tracking?

Good Question

The good ole myth on supporting registration. So they can track down when a gun is used in a crime. Which means after the fact that the crime was committed. Kind of like how most police operate when you call them. Most of the time it's after the crime was committed. Rarely is HPD or other LEO's on the spot as it's happening.

The good ole myth on supporting registration. So they can track down when a gun is used in a crime. Which means after the fact that the crime was committed. Kind of like how most police operate when you call them. Most of the time it's after the crime was committed. Rarely is HPD or other LEO's on the spot as it's happening.

Registration is solely for the purpose of confiscation. That is it.
Like you say, very rarely do police prevent crime, they mostly document it,  clean up the mess as best as they can, and
sometimes even catching the criminal.
Registration is the number one reason for all the gun/boating accidents.

Well, it could well be for them rounding up the millions and millions of gun owners and then we all will do the Hokey Pokey.

And instead of doing the hokey pokey and turning ourselves around.....

they'll make us turn our firearms in......

Hoookee Pokeee!!!!.........

It's the slippy-slope result.

The NFA said no federal firearms list of gun owners.  But they had to figure out what to do with FFL records when one goes out of business.

The solution was to send the paper forms to the ATF.  If there was a need to request the FFL records in an investigation, the ATF would provide those records in lieu of the defunct FFL.

Now that they have a mountain of paper records that's impossible to search in a timely manner, they are digitizing the paper.  That can lead to a computerized search of at least the records the ATF possesses.  This, in effect, is a firearm buyer's database.

When HPD or a gun seller does an NICS check from the FBI, they don't send the specific gun info.  That's kept by the FFL.  The process keeps gun info out of the hands of the feds.  However, when an FFL closes shop and hands over that info to the ATF, the process is short-circuited.  The feds now have the number, type and serial numbers of guns sold by that dealer.  This was totally prohibited in the NFA, but now we see how things have become.

slippy-slope?
sounds like someone familiar...

It's the slippy-slope result.

The NFA said no federal firearms list of gun owners.  But they had to figure out what to do with FFL records when one goes out of business.

The solution was to send the paper forms to the ATF.  If there was a need to request the FFL records in an investigation, the ATF would provide those records in lieu of the defunct FFL.

Now that they have a mountain of paper records that's impossible to search in a timely manner, they are digitizing the paper.  That can lead to a computerized search of at least the records the ATF possesses.  This, in effect, is a firearm buyer's database.

When HPD or a gun seller does an NICS check from the FBI, they don't send the specific gun info.  That's kept by the FFL.  The process keeps gun info out of the hands of the feds.  However, when an FFL closes shop and hands over that info to the ATF, the process is short-circuited.  The feds now have the number, type and serial numbers of guns sold by that dealer.  This was totally prohibited in the NFA, but now we see how things have become.

The NFA said no federal firearms list of gun owners.  But they had to figure out what to do with FFL records when one goes out of business.

The solution was to send the paper forms to the ATF.

Keep your local gun shop in business so your 4473 doesn't go to ATF.

Keep your local gun shop in business so your 4473 doesn't go to ATF.

I haven't filled out a 4473 in over 30 years.
Don't intend to start now.
 

I haven't filled out a 4473 in over 30 years.
Don't intend to start now.
 

No need to post that. "They" already know ...   

The good ole myth on supporting registration. So they can track down when a gun is used in a crime. Which means after the fact that the crime was committed. Kind of like how most police operate when you call them. Most of the time it's after the crime was committed. Rarely is HPD or other LEO's on the spot as it's happening.

Why do you say it is a myth?

A gun that is registered and later found to have been used in a crime is going to give some lead for a homicide detective to follow up on. It isn't a trump card but do you think investigations have never been solved by using a gun registration list?

Why do you say it is a myth?

A gun that is registered and later found to have been used in a crime is going to give some lead for a homicide detective to follow up on. It isn't a trump card but do you think investigations have never been solved by using a gun registration list?

And the purpose?

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Why do you say it is a myth?

A gun that is registered and later found to have been used in a crime is going to give some lead for a homicide detective to follow up on. It isn't a trump card but do you think investigations have never been solved by using a gun registration list?

It's a myth, because a gun registration rarely, if ever, leads investigators to the perp.

Anyone who uses a gun registered in their own name to premeditatedly commit a crime is a moron.  Chances are, the perp was found through witness ID, fingerprint or DNA ID, a license plate, car description, etc. 

If there's no other evidence the gun's owner was the criminal, they can easily claim the gun is missing and they hadn't noticed.  Must have been lost or stolen. 
Hard to prove it wasn't.

Most crime guns are not left at the scene anyway.  How, exactly, will the Cops get the serial number of a murder weapon they don't have so they might match it to the registered owner?

For registrations to work, the Cops first need the gun. 
Then they need ballistics to match the gun to the victim. 
Then they need the registration record.
Then they need to locate the last registered owner. 
Then they need to find out if the registered owner still owned it and had possession of it (not all states do permits or registrations for private sales).

If the owner is smart, he won't commit a crime with a gun registered to him.  He'll find a "clean" gun with no way to trace it.

At that point, registration is 100% useless.

So many ways to see that registration is pointless. 

It's a myth, because a gun registration rarely, if ever, leads investigators to the perp.

Anyone who uses a gun registered in their own name to premeditatedly commit a crime is a moron.  Chances are, the perp was found through witness ID, fingerprint or DNA ID, a license plate, car description, etc. 

If there's no other evidence the gun's owner was the criminal, they can easily claim the gun is missing and they hadn't noticed.  Must have been lost or stolen. 
Hard to prove it wasn't.

Most crime guns are not left at the scene anyway.  How, exactly, will the Cops get the serial number of a murder weapon they don't have so they might match it to the registered owner?

For registrations to work, the Cops first need the gun. 
Then they need ballistics to match the gun to the victim. 
Then they need the registration record.
Then they need to locate the last registered owner. 
Then they need to find out if the registered owner still owned it and had possession of it (not all states do permits or registrations for private sales).

If the owner is smart, he won't commit a crime with a gun registered to him.  He'll find a "clean" gun with no way to trace it.

At that point, registration is 100% useless.

So many ways to see that registration is pointless.

How do you know gun registrations rarely lead to the suspect?

Morons do commit crimes BTW.

Say someone tosses a murder weapon of an unsolved into the river and it gets found later. Cops run the serial number and find the person it was last registered to. Is that the suspect? Maybe, maybe not but it is somewhere to start. Now cops are looking at this registered owner, they can see if he has a motive or connection. Work to see where the firearm owner was during the time of the murder, etc and it might find enough evidence to solve the crime. Or maybe it turns out that the registered owner sold the gun and then they can tell the police who they sold it to and now they have another person of interest to look at and.

Without a gun registry they have a serial number with no links to any private persons.

And the purpose?

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I don't understand your question. The purpose would be to solve a crime.

I don't understand your question. The purpose would be to solve a crime.

I'm asking what the purpose of registration is for. Since I say it's a myth that it's so important to help prevent or solve crimes. If that's the reason, then shouldn't all knives have a serial number on them and be registered also?  Because there are more knife injuries/deaths than gun injuries/deaths annually. Like 6,000 to 500. So should resources be diverted to focus on knives first.  And even golf clubs since just under 200 golf clubs are used to kill people annually.

I get what you're saying, but the nosey government is overstepping here and making an excuse which people who trust them or are anti 2a will believe. Can reg for guns be used to solve or prevent future crimes?  I'm sure it can, but not to the high success rate that they are using to justify reg.

Like Flapp mentioned, if a gun with an intact serial number is found, it's after the crime has been committed,  The 1 example I can see where it would help prevent future crimes is if someone is buying and then selling guns to felons as a business. They can trace all the illegally sold guns back to 1 person. But refer to my sentence above about it not being so much a need that their excuse to register holds any weight.

Just like how HPD testified twice in 2 weeks that bringing in the gun to physically inspect is needed. They claim in 2021, 55 illegal guns were brought in by people to register. Of which 30 were military.  55 sounds like a lot until you realize the average annual registration is 25,000-30K firearms brought in for physical registration. So that's a very small % for HPD to justify the need. Plus they already lost the lawsuit, so this would be in violation of the judges order. Then add in that felons would not come in to register a gun.

How do you know gun registrations rarely lead to the suspect?

Morons do commit crimes BTW.

Say someone tosses a murder weapon of an unsolved into the river and it gets found later. Cops run the serial number and find the person it was last registered to. Is that the suspect? Maybe, maybe not but it is somewhere to start. Now cops are looking at this registered owner, they can see if he has a motive or connection. Work to see where the firearm owner was during the time of the murder, etc and it might find enough evidence to solve the crime. Or maybe it turns out that the registered owner sold the gun and then they can tell the police who they sold it to and now they have another person of interest to look at and.

Without a gun registry they have a serial number with no links to any private persons.

Maryland tried to go the extra mile.  They "deduced" that if they can create a database of all firearms in the state, they could then use the markings on the casing and bullet to lead them to the person's gun that committed the crime.  No need for the gun to be recovered at the scene.

Maryland scraps gun “fingerprint” database after 15 failed years

Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog
the “fingerprints” of thousands of handguns was a failure.

Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and
send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of “ballistic fingerprints”
to help solve future crimes. 

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds
of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.

https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/maryland-scraps-gun-fingerprint-database-after-15-failed-years/147216

That's what most of us call "evidence."  Evidence that directly supports my conclusion:  "It's a myth, because a gun registration rarely, if ever, leads investigators to the perp."

No hypothetical "what if" BS required.

After rereading your hypothetical BS, I realized you don't know how investigations work.

If a gun with an intact serial number is found, it is tracked from the manufacturer to the distributor and retailer.  The retailer's records then identify the buyer.  From there, investigators interview that buyer and anyone else who purchased the gun after him.  At some point, they may or may not find out the last person who owned it.  Most often, they find that the gun was stolen.  80% of criminals IN PRISON who used firearms to commit crimes said they used guns that were stolen so they can't be traced to them.  The others used guns from friends, family members or associates (other gang members/criminals) who they trusted not to be undercover cops.  Rarely are guns used that are owned by the registered buyer.

I'm asking what the purpose of registration is for. Since I say it's a myth that it's so important to help prevent or solve crimes. If that's the reason, then shouldn't all knives have a serial number on them and be registered also?  Because there are more knife injuries/deaths than gun injuries/deaths annually. Like 6,000 to 500. So should resources be diverted to focus on knives first.  And even golf clubs since just under 200 golf clubs are used to kill people annually.

I get what you're saying, but the nosey government is overstepping here and making an excuse which people who trust them or are anti 2a will believe. Can reg for guns be used to solve or prevent future crimes?  I'm sure it can, but not to the high success rate that they are using to justify reg.

Like Flapp mentioned, if a gun with an intact serial number is found, it's after the crime has been committed,  The 1 example I can see where it would help prevent future crimes is if someone is buying and then selling guns to felons as a business. They can trace all the illegally sold guns back to 1 person. But refer to my sentence above about it not being so much a need that their excuse to register holds any weight.

Just like how HPD testified twice in 2 weeks that bringing in the gun to physically inspect is needed. They claim in 2021, 55 illegal guns were brought in by people to register. Of which 30 were military.  55 sounds like a lot until you realize the average annual registration is 25,000-30K firearms brought in for physical registration. So that's a very small % for HPD to justify the need. Plus they already lost the lawsuit, so this would be in violation of the judges order. Then add in that felons would not come in to register a gun.

It doesn't have to be a single reason, it can be multiple reasons and you might get different answers depending on who you ask. So for example, if a law is voted on, everyone legislator can have their own reason/combination of reasons why they voted on it. So in this case, some may focus on a crime fighting aspect, some may focus on a gun confiscation aspect, etc etc.

Whether gun registration solved enough crimes to justify continued registration requirements is a mostly a subjective question, how many murderers caught would justify the existence of a registration system?

To answer it I would want to see what evidence there was on the matter. So far as I have looked I haven't seen any numbers that address this specific question. Maybe the data is published somewhere and I haven't seen it but maybe it just hasn't been gathered as a dataset.

Maryland tried to go the extra mile.  They "deduced" that if they can create a database of all firearms in the state, they could then use the markings on the casing and bullet to lead them to the person's gun that committed the crime.  No need for the gun to be recovered at the scene.

Maryland scraps gun “fingerprint” database after 15 failed years
https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/maryland-scraps-gun-fingerprint-database-after-15-failed-years/147216

That's what most of us call "evidence."  Evidence that directly supports my conclusion:  "It's a myth, because a gun registration rarely, if ever, leads investigators to the perp."

No hypothetical "what if" BS required.

After rereading your hypothetical BS, I realized you don't know how investigations work.

If a gun with an intact serial number is found, it is tracked from the manufacturer to the distributor and retailer.  The retailer's records then identify the buyer.  From there, investigators interview that buyer and anyone else who purchased the gun after him.  At some point, they may or may not find out the last person who owned it.  Most often, they find that the gun was stolen.  80% of criminals IN PRISON who used firearms to commit crimes said they used guns that were stolen so they can't be traced to them.  The others used guns from friends, family members or associates (other gang members/criminals) who they trusted not to be undercover cops.  Rarely are guns used that are owned by the registered buyer.

Or you don't realize how investigations work...

And I was aware of this failure of this database but you are doing a bait and switch, trying to use the failure of this system  to imply a different system must therefore also be a failure. The two are not directly comparable.

I understand the conclusion you want to be able to draw but you are jumping the gun a bit. I too would be happy to argue against a national database but I am not going to let that bias me in consideration of whether the data supports that. Within the gun rights debate there are all sorts of arguments and datasets thrown around and guess what, they don't all cleanly support one position or the other.

But let me ask you this question, what number of murders being solved by a registration database would it take where you would say the database was worth it?

It doesn't have to be a single reason, it can be multiple reasons and you might get different answers depending on who you ask. So for example, if a law is voted on, everyone legislator can have their own reason/combination of reasons why they voted on it. So in this case, some may focus on a crime fighting aspect, some may focus on a gun confiscation aspect, etc etc.

Whether gun registration solved enough crimes to justify continued registration requirements is a mostly a subjective question, how many murderers caught would justify the existence of a registration system?

To answer it I would want to see what evidence there was on the matter. So far as I have looked I haven't seen any numbers that address this specific question. Maybe the data is published somewhere and I haven't seen it but maybe it just hasn't been gathered as a dataset.

Here is what the FBI/CDC publish about knives and gun deaths.  So since knives have more deaths, then you should be OK with registering knives too right?