Kauai to issue ccw's soon (Read 5549 times)

changemyoil66

Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« on: October 30, 2022, 09:32:56 AM »
A temp one will have to be picked up at KPD. Then returned once the regular one is issued.

Ccw's have been approved by their chief. Just working on issuing them.

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2022, 12:26:07 PM »
Honolulu is risking a civil rights lawsuit by waiting until the Legislature can change the law. 

Refusing to issue now after the Supreme Court outlawed "May Issue" schemes should be met with civil and criminal consequences.

This, after the Honolulu Police Chief said he would be able to issue permits by end of August.

They are in breach of the Constitution -- they have been all along, but now it's official since Bruen.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

nickelzismoney

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2022, 09:28:33 PM »
I’d love to see tyrannical necks in a Colombian necktie
“No matter how much it hurts, how dark it gets, or how hard you fall… you are never out of the fight.” - Marcus Luttrel

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Albert Einstein

Stack_Xchange

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2022, 10:11:12 PM »
I really don't know what they are trying to accomplish by the delay, and it would seem as though every attempt to neutralize Bruin with related legal wrangling has failed at rapid pace. Everyone who really wants to CCW is not going to be dissuaded from applying because they have to wait. The only thing that's preventing me from applying are the uncertain terms of the permit. If the permit only applies to one gun, I'm going to have to make a conscientious choice on which gun I will carry because I'm not going though the permitting and related processes more than once; and until the testing requirements are set, I cannot wisely choose a firearm in which to test.

Besides, there have been some ongoing cases in re 10-round magazine bans in which case I would prefer a G19 over say a G43/48 if "we" are successful.

groveler

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2022, 10:26:52 PM »
Honolulu is risking a civil rights lawsuit by waiting until the Legislature can change the law. 

Refusing to issue now after the Supreme Court outlawed "May Issue" schemes should be met with civil and criminal consequences.

This, after the Honolulu Police Chief said he would be able to issue permits by end of August.

They are in breach of the Constitution -- they have been all along, but now it's official since Bruen.
"Honolulu is risking a civil rights lawsuit by waiting until the Legislature can change the law."
Do you honestly think they give a shit?

None of the Hawaii Top cops care about you or me.
They are just getting a paycheck.
   :grrr:

changemyoil66

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2022, 10:46:37 PM »
I really don't know what they are trying to accomplish by the delay, and it would seem as though every attempt to neutralize Bruin with related legal wrangling has failed at rapid pace. Everyone who really wants to CCW is not going to be dissuaded from applying because they have to wait. The only thing that's preventing me from applying are the uncertain terms of the permit. If the permit only applies to one gun, I'm going to have to make a conscientious choice on which gun I will carry because I'm not going though the permitting and related processes more than once; and until the testing requirements are set, I cannot wisely choose a firearm in which to test.

Besides, there have been some ongoing cases in re 10-round magazine bans in which case I would prefer a G19 over say a G43/48 if "we" are successful.
They are trying to delay as long as possible cause they keep losing. Its the only play the anti 2a have left.

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rpoL98

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2022, 10:29:49 PM »
A temp one will have to be picked up at KPD. Then returned once the regular one is issued.

Ccw's have been approved by their chief. Just working on issuing them.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
are these going to only retired Kauai police officers?

stangzilla

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2022, 10:29:21 AM »
police chief is merely a puppet with the politicians hands up his ass
we are getting sick and tired of waiting

QUIETShooter

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2022, 10:38:39 AM »
police chief is merely a puppet with the politicians hands up his ass
we are getting sick and tired of waiting

HPD Chief Logan should at least apologize for his past statements of issuing permits in August (which didn't happen) and then again in October (which didn't happen).

At least it might lend to more understanding, maybe his intentions were circumvented by bureaucracy or legal matters, whatever.  But at least apologize and offer explanation.

This does not bode well for CCW moving forward.  Hawaii is sending a message and that message has many meanings, one of them is that Hawaii has assh*les in government and LE. :rofl: 
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2022, 10:50:41 AM »
HPD Chief Logan should at least apologize for his past statements of issuing permits in August (which didn't happen) and then again in October (which didn't happen).

At least it might lend to more understanding, maybe his intentions were circumvented by bureaucracy or legal matters, whatever.  But at least apologize and offer explanation.

This does not bode well for CCW moving forward.  Hawaii is sending a message and that message has many meanings, one of them is that Hawaii has assh*les in government and LE. :rofl:

What valid reason could he possibly offer when other counties are able to issue licenses?

Nope.  Honolulu County has the most people which also equates to more legal gun owners and more CCW applicants.  They are scared of issuing, because it will then prove CCW is not the big bad terror (Wild West -- blood in the streets -- rampant accidents) that they pretend will happen.

No valid reasons.  They are refusing to change their "may issue" to "shall issue."  Period.  The other counties PROVE we are ready to issue.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2022, 11:17:15 AM »
HPD Chief Logan should at least apologize for his past statements of issuing permits in August (which didn't happen) and then again in October (which didn't happen).

At least it might lend to more understanding, maybe his intentions were circumvented by bureaucracy or legal matters, whatever.  But at least apologize and offer explanation.

This does not bode well for CCW moving forward.  Hawaii is sending a message and that message has many meanings, one of them is that Hawaii has assh*les in government and LE. :rofl:

If he was good, he would approve all as is, which would be valid for 1 year. Then amend the rules during this time which take affect upon renewal.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2022, 11:40:54 AM »
If he was good, he would approve all as is, which would be valid for 1 year. Then amend the rules during this time which take affect upon renewal.
They never intended to issue CCW licenses to the law abiding, non-LEO, non-politically connected people residing in Hawaii.  The existing law was created with a "poison pill" that gave the counties an "exceptional need" clause as automatic grounds for denial.

With the elimination of that poison pill, they are LIVID that they must do what they never intended to: issue licenses.

That's the background.  There's no dispute about it.  Their behavior now is proof they do not want to, and never wanted to, issue a license to any "regular" applicant.

Yes, they could have issued licenses in July or August, and then changed the law later.  But that would mean actually issuing licenses.

Their objective is to deny, not issue.  No solutions you offer will be taken into consideration if it opposes that objective.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

QUIETShooter

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2022, 12:33:01 PM »
They never intended to issue CCW licenses to the law abiding, non-LEO, non-politically connected people residing in Hawaii.  The existing law was created with a "poison pill" that gave the counties an "exceptional need" clause as automatic grounds for denial.

With the elimination of that poison pill, they are LIVID that they must do what they never intended to: issue licenses.

That's the background.  There's no dispute about it.  Their behavior now is proof they do not want to, and never wanted to, issue a license to any "regular" applicant.

Yes, they could have issued licenses in July or August, and then changed the law later.  But that would mean actually issuing licenses.

Their objective is to deny, not issue.  No solutions you offer will be taken into consideration if it opposes that objective.

Agree.  And they're pretty smug about it.  That's what pisses me off.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

RSN172

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2022, 04:40:35 PM »
All this bullshit and you DON'T wonder why so many people are. carrying anyway.
Happily living in Puna

Stack_Xchange

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2022, 12:07:19 PM »
What valid reason could he possibly offer when other counties are able to issue licenses?

Nope.  Honolulu County has the most people which also equates to more legal gun owners and more CCW applicants.  They are scared of issuing, because it will then prove CCW is not the big bad terror (Wild West -- blood in the streets -- rampant accidents) that they pretend will happen.

No valid reasons.  They are refusing to change their "may issue" to "shall issue."  Period.  The other counties PROVE we are ready to issue.

Higher firearm ownership rates mean higher rates of firearms violence. This is a fact.

However, rate of firearm ownership does NOT correlate with higher rates of homicide. This is also a fact.

In essence, more guns means higher likelihood of being killed by a gun, but it does not mean "more likely to be killed overall". Think of it like the death rate pre and post COVID--it went from 7.55 (2018) to 7.68 (2022) per 1000, meaning that although COVID has killed people, it has not really impacted the overall rate of death.

There will almost certainly be a rise in firearms violence with the issuance of CCWs, but what is uncertain is how it will affect the overall homicide rate, and the only way to know this is to, well, measure it once it occurs.

The reason why I point this out, is because in a debate, anti-2a people will often cite higher rates of firearms ownership with higher rates of gun violence, and they would be correct. The counter for this argument is to show that "more guns does not mean less safe", which is what the carefully constructed "gun violence" argument is intent on implying. People must know that firearms do not necessarily make a society less safe, because that's what people really care about. Pro-2a advocates must know how to dismantle the "higher firearms rate equals more gun violence" argument because it is deceptively convincing and is the basis for every Bill trying to ban something after a highly-publicized event involving guns.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2022, 05:28:07 PM »
Higher firearm ownership rates mean higher rates of firearms violence. This is a fact.

However, rate of firearm ownership does NOT correlate with higher rates of homicide. This is also a fact.

In essence, more guns means higher likelihood of being killed by a gun, but it does not mean "more likely to be killed overall". Think of it like the death rate pre and post COVID--it went from 7.55 (2018) to 7.68 (2022) per 1000, meaning that although COVID has killed people, it has not really impacted the overall rate of death.

There will almost certainly be a rise in firearms violence with the issuance of CCWs, but what is uncertain is how it will affect the overall homicide rate, and the only way to know this is to, well, measure it once it occurs.

The reason why I point this out, is because in a debate, anti-2a people will often cite higher rates of firearms ownership with higher rates of gun violence, and they would be correct. The counter for this argument is to show that "more guns does not mean less safe", which is what the carefully constructed "gun violence" argument is intent on implying. People must know that firearms do not necessarily make a society less safe, because that's what people really care about. Pro-2a advocates must know how to dismantle the "higher firearms rate equals more gun violence" argument because it is deceptively convincing and is the basis for every Bill trying to ban something after a highly-publicized event involving guns.

The problem with this statement: 

     Higher firearm ownership rates mean higher rates of firearms violence. This is a fact.

is it does not simply state a statistical comparison of two components.  Using the word "mean" implies causality, not just correlation.

It also excludes all other components that might influence a rise in crime rates.  Lockdowns, stores being closed, Cops and DAs letting gangs of thieves walk, Defund the Police rhetoric -- all of that compounds the issue.

What if I said, "More food means more people."  What causality is implied there?

The reality is, you only have to present one question:

Do more people buy guns because the crime rate is rising, or is the crime rate rising because people are buying guns?

Classic chicken and the egg problem, but one that can actually be observed and analyzed.

Since this is National Common Sense Day, I'll just leave it there.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 12:07:19 AM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Stack_Xchange

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2022, 01:08:44 AM »
The problem with this statement: 

     Higher firearm ownership rates mean higher rates of firearms violence. This is a fact.

is it does not simply state a statistical comparison of two components.  Using the word "mean" implies causality, not just correlation.

It also excludes all other components that might influence a rise in crime rates.  Lockdowns, stores being closed, Cops and DAs letting gangs of thieves walk, Defund the Police rhetoric -- all of that compounds the issue.

What if I said, "More food means more people."  What causality is implied there?

The reality is, you only have to present one question:

Do more people buy guns because the crime rate is rising, or is the crime rate rising because people are buying guns?

Classic chicken and the egg problem, but one that can actually be observed and analyzed.

Since this is National Common Sense Day, I'll just leave it there.

While I am pro-2a, I despise these types of arguments. What you are asking me to do, is account and control for every single external variable in an argument that must simultaneously contain compelling empirical and anecdotal evidence. It is impossible and disingenuous. “Did you buy a gun because crime rates are rising?” is something for the media to ask the street-waking public to push its underlying political narrative. Do not do this.

I don’t have the time to articulately address your question, because it will require that I collect a bunch of data on firearm ownership, rate of change in ownership, crime rate, rate of change in crime rate, argue the definitions of each term herein, discuss criminological theory on why every type of crime occurs, and discuss changes in criminological theory over the last one hundred years with a focus on the last twenty. I will however point you towards some recent, peer-reviewed studies to support my position.

There is a positive correlation between civilian gun ownership and increases of gun violence (Zimring, 2020). Firearm ownership correlates with domestic homicide, but not with non-domestic homicides (Kivisto et. al., 2019). States with “stronger” firearms legislation have less firearms suicide (Anestis et. al., 2019). I included this, because many stats on “gun violence” include suicide, which make up a significant portion of death by firearm unless specifically excluded. Historically, gun prevalence has no effect on overall rates of violence (Kleck, 1993).

More guns mean more gun violence, but not necessarily more violence overall. Yes, there will probably be cars exchanging gunfire in road rage incidents as the result of more people carrying firearms, but for every one of those, you’ll have one less “Mark Char” road rage stabbings—in other words, no change. Therefore, if you want to carry a gun in public, you should absolutely be allowed to, because carrying a gun has not created any additional potential violence whatsoever.

This is what a majority of the research suggests, and this is what I believe to be true, and it is in fact a great pro-2a argument if I have ever seen one.

References

Anestis, M. D., Houtsma, C., Daruwala, S. E., & Butterworth, S. E. (2019). Firearm legislation and statewide suicide rates: The moderating role of household firearm ownership levels. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 37(3), 270–280. https://doi.org/10.1002/bsl.2408
Kivisto, A. J., Magee, L. A., Phalen, P. L., & Ray, B. R. (2019). Firearm Ownership and Domestic Versus Nondomestic Homicide in the U.S. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, 57(3), 311–320. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.amepre.2019.04.009
Kleck, G., & Patterson, E. B. (1993). The Impact of Gun Control and Gun Ownership Levels on Violence Rates. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 9(3), 249–287.
Zimring, F. E. (2020). Firearms and violence in American life—50 years later. Criminology & Public Policy, 19(4), 1359–1369. https://doi.org/10.1111/1745-9133.12523

RSN172

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2022, 05:53:13 AM »
I THINK and I FEEL, some people on here are Pro 2A, but……..
Happily living in Puna

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2022, 11:34:55 AM »
While I am pro-2a, I despise these types of arguments. What you are asking me to do, is account and control for every single external variable in an argument that must simultaneously contain compelling empirical and anecdotal evidence. It is impossible and disingenuous. “Did you buy a gun because crime rates are rising?” is something for the media to ask the street-waking public to push its underlying political narrative. Do not do this.

No.  What I am asking is that you take note that the lack of causality between number of guns owned and crime has been debunked by validated studies.  All it takes is one or two instances where a town had a significant increase in gun ownership and/or passed laws allowing for Constitutional Carry (which 26 states now have) but has not experienced a rise in crime.  The FACT is, many, if not most, of those areas saw a significant drop in the crime rate.  That destroys the "fact" you posted: Higher firearm ownership rates mean higher rates of firearms violence.

I don’t have the time to articulately address your question, because it will require that I collect a bunch of data on firearm ownership, rate of change in ownership, crime rate, rate of change in crime rate, argue the definitions of each term herein, discuss criminological theory on why every type of crime occurs, and discuss changes in criminological theory over the last one hundred years with a focus on the last twenty. I will however point you towards some recent, peer-reviewed studies to support my position.

There is a positive correlation between civilian gun ownership and increases of gun violence (Zimring, 2020). Firearm ownership correlates with domestic homicide, but not with non-domestic homicides (Kivisto et. al., 2019). States with “stronger” firearms legislation have less firearms suicide (Anestis et. al., 2019). I included this, because many stats on “gun violence” include suicide, which make up a significant portion of death by firearm unless specifically excluded. Historically, gun prevalence has no effect on overall rates of violence (Kleck, 1993).

The pitfall of arguing about gun control, crime rates, or most other societal issues is that statistics are often incomplete and biased (cherry-picked data).  What you left out, IMO, is that more people are protected each year using a firearm than are shot or killed with one during a crime.  That also includes suicide by firearm.

More guns mean more gun violence, but not necessarily more violence overall. Yes, there will probably be cars exchanging gunfire in road rage incidents as the result of more people carrying firearms, but for every one of those, you’ll have one less “Mark Char” road rage stabbings—in other words, no change. Therefore, if you want to carry a gun in public, you should absolutely be allowed to, because carrying a gun has not created any additional potential violence whatsoever.

Any argument that includes the phrase "gun violence" has predetermined the cause of that violence.  To ignore all other factors other than the existence of guns is dishonest and biased.  Nobody talks about knife violence, automobile violence (aka road rage, alcohol-related, intentional injury via a motor vehicle, etc), or blunt force violence.  That's because the agenda is to blame the gun.

This is what a majority of the research suggests, and this is what I believe to be true, and it is in fact a great pro-2a argument if I have ever seen one.

All that, and you didn't even try to answer the question I proposed:  Do gun crimes rise because more people own guns, or do people buy guns in response to a rise in crime?  Hint:  More first time gun owners in the last 3 years than ever before.  Also record crime in many cities.

In 1994, the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was enacted.  April 20, 1999, just 5 years later, the Columbine High School Massacre took place.  The killers used guns labeled "Assault Weapons".  Do we draw the conclusion that banning these weapons, thus reducing their numbers in the hands of gun owners, means more such events?

Correlation does not equal causation.  Don't get dragged down that abyss.  Statistics are notorious for being misleading.


References

Anestis, M. D., Houtsma, C., Daruwala, S. E., & Butterworth, S. E. (2019). Firearm legislation and statewide suicide rates: The moderating role of household firearm ownership levels. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 37(3), 270–280. https://doi.org/10.1002/bsl.2408
Kivisto, A. J., Magee, L. A., Phalen, P. L., & Ray, B. R. (2019). Firearm Ownership and Domestic Versus Nondomestic Homicide in the U.S. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, 57(3), 311–320. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.amepre.2019.04.009
Kleck, G., & Patterson, E. B. (1993). The Impact of Gun Control and Gun Ownership Levels on Violence Rates. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 9(3), 249–287.
Zimring, F. E. (2020). Firearms and violence in American life—50 years later. Criminology & Public Policy, 19(4), 1359–1369. https://doi.org/10.1111/1745-9133.12523
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Stack_Xchange

Re: Kauai to issue ccw's soon
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2022, 02:40:08 AM »
No.  What I am asking is that you take note that the lack of causality between number of guns owned and crime has been debunked by validated studies.  All it takes is one or two instances where a town had a significant increase in gun ownership and/or passed laws allowing for Constitutional Carry (which 26 states now have) but has not experienced a rise in crime.  The FACT is, many, if not most, of those areas saw a significant drop in the crime rate.  That destroys the "fact" you posted: Higher firearm ownership rates mean higher rates of firearms violence.

Cont...

Link to the academic peer-reviewed studies. When I say "more guns means more gun violence" I'm referencing a publicized, nationwide statistic by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. It is not "cherry picking" data from a rural town and comparing it to a metropolis.

Q: The pitfall of arguing about gun control, crime rates, or most other societal issues is that statistics are often incomplete and biased (cherry-picked data).  What you left out, IMO, is that more people are protected each year using a firearm than are shot or killed with one during a crime.  That also includes suicide by firearm.
A: I'll come back to "cherry-picking" later, but I am very well aware of the number of firearms used in self-defense statistics. If you know these stats, then you also know that there is a very, very large variance. Last I remember, the number of times a firearm was used in self-defense ranged from 500k, to 3m. Why? Simply because that number is impossible to quantify given one significant variable: The number of a times a firearm was used in self-defense, but was NOT FIRED. This data is not officially collected and is a well-know gap in this particular data set.

Q: Any argument that includes the phrase "gun violence" has predetermined the cause of that violence.  To ignore all other factors other than the existence of guns is dishonest and biased.  Nobody talks about knife violence, automobile violence (aka road rage, alcohol-related, intentional injury via a motor vehicle, etc), or blunt force violence.  That's because the agenda is to blame the gun.
A: "Gun violence" has become a common term in lay-speak, and academics spar over its use all the time. I'm very well aware that other types of violence occurs and I've also said that more firearms does not mean more overall violence (which includes stabbings, clubbing's, strangling's, etc.) but more firearms does mean more death or injury by firearm and this is very clear.

Q: All that, and you didn't even try to answer the question I proposed:  Do gun crimes rise because more people own guns, or do people buy guns in response to a rise in crime?  Hint:  More first time gun owners in the last 3 years than ever before.  Also record crime in many cities.
A: As I said before, you pose an unanswerable question, and it appears to be by design. For the same reason we cannot academically determine how many times a gun was used to prevent a crime, we cannot determine how many times a crime was committed because of a gun. We only know approximately how many guns are owned and approximately how many crimes are committed, and only sometimes when there's a firearm involved. I don't know why people buy guns, nor do I care. It's a right to own a gun, and I don't make it my business to figure out why a person may or may not choose to exercise a constitutional right.

Q: In 1994, the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was enacted.  April 20, 1999, just 5 years later, the Columbine High School Massacre took place.  The killers used guns labeled "Assault Weapons".  Do we draw the conclusion that banning these weapons, thus reducing their numbers in the hands of gun owners, means more such events?
A: "Mass school shootings", "school shootings", and "mass shootings" are three different things, and they should be studied independently, at least in my opinion. I consider mass school shootings like Columbine to be statistical anomalies, because the amount of death would be normally considered statistical outliers when compared to "school shootings". School shootings are mostly perpetuated by adults, after school hours, and commonly at sporting events. The definition of a "school shooting" is anytime, anyone is injured by a firearm while on school property. I disagree with this definition, and it's a point I argue on a regular basis. "Mass shootings" are yet another separate category. This definition is not clearly defined by anyone, and like "mass school shootings", events like Mandalay Bay are clearly outliers when compared to, say, your average mass shooting where "four people are injured". Bottom line is, the AWB is likely the product of a "moral panic", as is much of legislation these days. Most gun violence is perpetuated with a handgun, not a rifle, so it doesn't make sense to ban rifles or limit magazine capacity. I suspect adding suppressors to the NFA list is also the result of a "moral panic".