crime is down.... (Read 2923 times)

ren

Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2024, 08:43:00 PM »
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2024/02/02/thieves-terrorizing-oahu-businesses-amid-rash-destructive-smash-grab-burglaries/

As some would pontificate: "It depends on how you define crime.   ...and down."

Reminds me of a certain former President who wanted to hash the nuances of the word is.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

QUIETShooter

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2024, 08:58:05 PM »
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

hvybarrels

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2024, 09:02:56 PM »
Went to West Marine last week and someone had driven through the front door with a stolen Kia. Apparently they were total amateurs and didn't have enough cargo space for a decent haul. They made off with less than $3k of reels but the damage cost around 20k. Rolling steel doors must be a booming business right now.

A lot of this seems like amateurs who know if they don't get caught red handed there probably won't be an investigation. They will be professionals soon enough though.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 09:46:06 PM by hvybarrels »
The F in Communism stands for Food

QUIETShooter

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2024, 09:09:37 PM »
HPD is giving them lots of time to hone their craft.  Experience comes from practicing.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

kkhawaii

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2024, 09:54:26 PM »
Maybe crime is down now that people can conceal carry

oldfart

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2024, 01:24:17 AM »
I think Ren beat me to this.
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2024/02/02/thieves-terrorizing-oahu-businesses-amid-rash-destructive-smash-grab-burglaries/

Does the sensitive places ban include hammers, cars, bricks...? :rofl:
A couple stores near me got wacked last year.
I wonder how Joe Logan would react if I formed a private armed roving patrol service?
I bet HPD would make a public comment really fast if someone tried to do that.
I just noticed the Chinatown business lady is probably my not-to-distant relative. Small world. 😆.
What, Me Worry?

Stack_Xchange

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2024, 08:07:42 AM »
The statement "crime is down" can be a factual statement from the same set of data where the statement "crime is up" is also true. Change definitions; change statistical model/method; change the interpretation.

This very news article makes only a brief mention of the data is has examined: "between Oct. 9, 2023 and Jan. 21, 2024 there have been 78 smash and grab burglaries." It then provides us with anecdotal evidence via testimony to the prevalence and impact regarding "smash and grabs".

We have only one data point provided, no definitions, no measurements, no context, and no transparency.

The only thing we know is that it seems to be a problem because the news published an article on it. Could it be a problem? Yes. Could it not be a problem? Yes. The only thing we know from this article is that we have a narrative.

#FoodForThought

zippz

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2024, 09:43:23 AM »

QUIETShooter

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2024, 09:53:20 AM »
Question:  What is truth nowadays?

Answer:  How the "spin" in presented.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2024, 11:09:57 AM »
The statement "crime is down" can be a factual statement from the same set of data where the statement "crime is up" is also true. Change definitions; change statistical model/method; change the interpretation.

This very news article makes only a brief mention of the data is has examined: "between Oct. 9, 2023 and Jan. 21, 2024 there have been 78 smash and grab burglaries." It then provides us with anecdotal evidence via testimony to the prevalence and impact regarding "smash and grabs".

We have only one data point provided, no definitions, no measurements, no context, and no transparency.

The only thing we know is that it seems to be a problem because the news published an article on it. Could it be a problem? Yes. Could it not be a problem? Yes. The only thing we know from this article is that we have a narrative.

#FoodForThought

In statistics, the terms up and down are normally reserved for trends.  Trends have a specific definition, which are based not on a cherry-picked or manipulative start/stop period, statistical method or interpretation.

The only way for someone to report the opposite trend from what the data supports is either lying or hiding the actual data.

If i tell you crime is down, and I'm using only the comparison between yesterday and today, that's an absolute lie.  A trend is not defined by a 24 hour period.  if that's what's being used, then it's reqired that the trend be reported with "over the past 24 hours" in the report.

So, while statistics can be, and are, manipulated to provide a desired answer, that answer needs to be within the realm of accepted statistical standards.

Trends are based on direct data evidence, not some statistical method that changes from another method.

Trend analysis can use statistical methods to filter, smooth or isolate trends that are hidden or not well defined in a "noisy" dataset, but the trend still exists if the data supports it.   The direction doesn't change with those methods.  It's either up, down, or not present,  it can't be altered unless the analyst is manipulating the data or the results.

There are at least 3 basic weaknesses in trend analysis:

1.  All data is subject to sampling errors.  That's not the case with HPD using actual numbers the department gathered from official reports.  Unless the reporting process is error prone, the datat used is as close to correct as you could expect.

2.  Data is subject to sampling errors.  Again, since HPD has ALL the data, there's nothing to be gained by even using a sampling method.  The amount of data over a few years is not so massive that samples should be used.  It's always best to use ALL available data, which given the totals HPD often reports publcly, is not a problem for them.

3.  "Phantom" trends can crop up in short term data points.  That's why trends should be studied as far back as possible.  To pick a short term in which a given trend is reported tells me they are cherry-picking the data if the data isn't being labeled "short term" with the specific period also labeled.  i.e. if reporting the number of gun sales year over year, it would be inaccurate to report 2020 sales versus 2024.  So much about 2020 was unique that comparing that with 3 years later would be considered cherry-picking unless the numbers are being used to illustrate a specific point being made -- not to report a trend.

Up, down or flat -- it can't be more than one if the data is being used correctly and reported honestly.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 11:24:28 AM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

macsak

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2024, 11:16:18 AM »
what is "statistis"?

In statistis, the terms up and down are normally reserved for trends.  Trends have a specific definition, which are based not on a cherry-picked or manipulative start/stop period, statistical method or interpretation.

The only way for someone to report the opposite trend from what the data supports is either lying or hiding the actual data.

If i tell you crime is down, and I'm using only the comparison between yesterday and today, that's an absolute lie.  A trend is not defined by a 24 hour period.  if that's what's being used, then it's reqired that the trend be reported with "over the past 24 hours" in the report.

So, while statistics can be, and are, manipulated to provide a desired answer, that answer needs to be within the realm of accepted statistical standards.

Trends are based on direct data evidence, not some statistical method that changes from another method.

Trend analysis can use statistical methods to filter, smooth or isolate trends that are hidden or not well defined in a "noisy" dataset, but the trend still exists if the data supports it.   The direction doesn't change with those methods.  It's either up, down, or not present,  it can't be altered unless the analyst is manipulating the data or the results.

There are at least 3 basic weaknesses in trend analysis:

1.  All data is subject to sampling errors.  That's not the case with HPD using actual numbers the department gathered from official reports.  Unless the reporting process is error prone, the datat used is as close to correct as you could expect.

2.  Data is subject to sampling errors.  Again, since HPD has ALL the data, there's nothing to be gained by even using a sampling method.  The amount of data over a few years is not so massive that samples should be used.  It's always best to use ALL available data, which given the totals HPD often reports publcly, is not a problem for them.

3.  "Phantom" trends can crop up in short term data points.  That's why trends should be studied as far back as possible.  To pick a short term in which a given trend is reported tells me they are cherry-picking the data if the data isn't being labeled "short term" with the specific period also labeled.  i.e. if reporting the number of gun sales year over year, it would be inaccurate to report 2020 sales versus 2024.  So much about 2020 was unique that comparing that with 3 years later would be considered cherry-picking unless the numbers are being used to illustrate a specific point being made -- not to report a trend.

Up, down or flat -- it can't be more than one if the data is being used correctly and reported honestly.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2024, 11:23:08 AM »
what is "statistis"?

Heads

i have an old Macbook, and several keys are being finicky.

Some keys, especially the left shift key, only work when they feel like it.

I think they might be Liberals.

Maybe the problem is it's a "MAC"book.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

ren

Deeds Not Words

QUIETShooter

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2024, 11:42:16 AM »
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

randay

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2024, 03:33:31 PM »
Im not really a burger guy but smash burgers are pretty good. I probably would not grab one every two days but maybe once or twice a month. They are really popular these days so I can see people grabbing a smash burger a few times a week.

changemyoil66

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2024, 03:40:16 PM »
Dont forget these are the # reported. Ive had friends be talked out of making a report.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

groveler

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2024, 10:44:15 PM »
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2024/02/02/no-funding-sight-much-needed-oahu-jail-despite-years-planning/

Perhaps in Honolulu county, subsidizing a Choo Choo train to little where at a cost of
about $55 per rider per trip is more important than their citizens  safety from  criminals
and the safety of those incarcerated criminals.
Overcrowding and understaffed jails aren't  good places at all,
personal experience
New Orleans Parish prison 1974,
No conviction, all charges dropped, due to  crooked cops,
running me through the system, because I pissed one off.
 >:D


.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2024, 10:53:05 PM »
Perhaps in Honolulu county, subsidizing a Choo Choo train to little where at a cost of
about $55 per rider per trip is more important than their citizens  safety from  criminals
and the safety of those incarcerated criminals.
Overcrowding and understaffed jails aren't  good places at all,
personal experience
New Orleans Parish prison 1974,
No conviction, all charges dropped, due to  crooked cops,
running me through the system, because I pissed one off.
 >:D


.

I've been told harsh prison conditions don't deter crime.  Only a support network which can embarrass the offender into not wanting to go back to prison can prevent that person from breaking the law in the future.

Or something like that....

Curious if you would ever factor in those prison conditions should you ever be tempted to fracture a law again?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Stack_Xchange

Re: crime is down....
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2024, 12:41:30 AM »
In statistics, the terms up and down are normally reserved for trends.  Trends have a specific definition, which are based not on a cherry-picked or manipulative start/stop period, statistical method or interpretation. [1]

The only way for someone to report the opposite trend from what the data supports is either lying or hiding the actual data. [2]

If i tell you crime is down, and I'm using only the comparison between yesterday and today, that's an absolute lie.  A trend is not defined by a 24 hour period.  if that's what's being used, then it's reqired that the trend be reported with "over the past 24 hours" in the report. [3]

So, while statistics can be, and are, manipulated to provide a desired answer, that answer needs to be within the realm of accepted statistical standards. [4]

Trends are based on direct data evidence, not some statistical method that changes from another method. [5]

Trend analysis can use statistical methods to filter, smooth or isolate trends that are hidden or not well defined in a "noisy" dataset, but the trend still exists if the data supports it.   The direction doesn't change with those methods.  It's either up, down, or not present,  it can't be altered unless the analyst is manipulating the data or the results. [6]

There are at least 3 basic weaknesses in trend analysis:

1.  All data is subject to sampling errors.  That's not the case with HPD using actual numbers the department gathered from official reports.  Unless the reporting process is error prone, the datat used is as close to correct as you could expect. [7]

2.  Data is subject to sampling errors.  Again, since HPD has ALL the data, there's nothing to be gained by even using a sampling method.  The amount of data over a few years is not so massive that samples should be used.  It's always best to use ALL available data, which given the totals HPD often reports publcly, is not a problem for them. [8]

3.  "Phantom" trends can crop up in short term data points.  That's why trends should be studied as far back as possible.  To pick a short term in which a given trend is reported tells me they are cherry-picking the data if the data isn't being labeled "short term" with the specific period also labeled.  i.e. if reporting the number of gun sales year over year, it would be inaccurate to report 2020 sales versus 2024.  So much about 2020 was unique that comparing that with 3 years later would be considered cherry-picking unless the numbers are being used to illustrate a specific point being made -- not to report a trend. [9]

Up, down or flat -- it can't be more than one if the data is being used correctly and reported honestly. [10]

1) A "trend" is just something observed in a Time Series Analysis. There are many different types of Time Series Analyses and some of them in fact do in fact use "manipulative start/stop methods" see: "Interrupted Time Series Analysis". "Cherry Picking" could be used to skew results, but technically all samples within a population are cherry-picked, and without a sample you cannot perform a statistical analysis.

2) Maybe. Most people cannot be bothered trying to understand the comprehensive statistical method(s) of the stats they are receiving, the same way most people cannot be bothered calculating friction coefficients but trust its safe to be on airplanes and drive cars anyway.

3) False. Trends can absolutely be reported using 24 hour denominations (see: "day-to-day trend"). Additionally, in some cases, data from preceding/proceeding days/months/years may be unavailable. In these cases, you can employ other statistical methods to determine if the "true mean" lies within your sample, especially if the qualitative and quantitative nature of your population is unknown (ex: we know human height is evenly distributed, even if we cannot and did not measure everyone on the planets height to reach this conclusion).

4) Agree.

5) False. The "trend" from every conceivable statistical model may or may not be congruent. This is why in an academic study the author must demonstrate why a particular model was used over the alternatives. In the news, they can report whatever they want.

6) Trend analysis is a particularly useful benefit of stats, however, analysts can absolutely change the observable trend. You can add or remove "noise" from a dataset by changing the sample within a population. For this reason, "outliers" are usually identified and accompanied with an explanation as to why they were omitted--and the opposite may also occur (Think about the HPD Major(?) who said rape was not included in the crime statistics because rape is an indoor crime and Waikiki is "outdoors", and therefore "crime in District 6 is down").

7) As ChangeMyOil666 reports, sometimes crimes occur without the documentation of a police report. Interestingly enough, a proper and comprehensive statistical analysis can account for this (see: point estimation)

8) Samples are used for many reasons, especially when using a population of data is costly, inaccurate, or ineffective. Generally speaking, the smaller the sample, the more accurate the analysis.

9) Agree, especially since we should know how many "non-private sales" occurred within the state. In a statistical analysis, years such as 2020 may possibly be excluded, but in such an event, there should be an explanation.

10) Agree, but not many people want the real "facts and data", and would prefer to receive the 'analysis' according to the narrative they subscribe (left or right).

I've been told harsh prison conditions don't deter crime [1].  Only a support network which can embarrass the offender into not wanting to go back to prison can prevent that person from breaking the law in the future. [2]

Or something like that....

Curious if you would ever factor in those prison conditions should you ever be tempted to fracture a law again?

1) There is significant scientific evidence that demonstrates incarceration is ineffective as a deterrent and actually has a dramatic effect on furthering reoffence (see: School to Prison Pipeline). There is also 'collateral damage' when it comes to harsh penalties as well. I remember SCOTUS case involving a juvenile who was expelled from school under a "Zero Tolerance Policy" for bringing a small pocket knife to school that she forgot in her backpack. The knife was discovered in her bag during a random locker search. The student explained she was using it to cut open haybales on the farm and had forgotten to remove it from her purse before the next school day.

2) Not exactly. Strong social bonds prevent people from committing crime to begin with, in addition to the shame someone will experience in those social circles if they are arrested; found guilty; and spends time in jail for a crime. Think of it this way... some people may be more afraid of their parents beating their ass for stealing even if retail theft is decriminalized, whereas others may have friends and family who are joining them in retail theft because they are entitled to self-help "reparations".