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What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii? (Read 3819 times)

Begle1

What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« on: May 23, 2024, 02:00:40 PM »
Is there any clarification on what an armor piercing bullet is in Hawaii?


I'm in the market for some 5.7x28 ammo.

Could T6B ammo or Black Dragon Fang ammo be considered as "armor piercing" since it the bullet is made of copper?

Could SS198LF be considered as "armor piercing" since the bullet is "lead free" and has an aluminum core?
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2024, 02:15:58 PM »
Quote
; or any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof coated with teflon
or any other similar coating designed primarily to enhance its capability to penetrate
metal or pierce protective armor; and any type of ammunition or any projectile
component thereof designed or intended to explode or segment upon impact with
its target.
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0008.htm
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2024, 02:25:52 PM »
Quote
Legislators did not specifically mention the M855 round in the 2015 legislation
regarding lead. However, the round does include a majority lead core and could
not be used on these lands during the ban. At around the same time, the ATF
also attempted to assert that green tip ammo qualified as an “armor-piercing”
round. They argued that it should be banned under the 1985 Law Enforcement
Officers Protection Act. They cited that the round should no longer be granted a
sporting exemption due to the rise in ownership of AR-pistols.

Fortunately, the M855 does not even meet their definition of “AP” ammo because
the core is 80% lead. The ATF shelved the pending ban after they received swift
and overwhelming backlash, which included 53 U.S. Senators and over 200
members of the U.S. House of Representatives. The ATF definition of armor-piercing
ammunition is posted below. So, yes Virginia, you can still buy all the green tip
rounds you can get your hands on.
Quote
18 USC 921(a)(17):
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is
constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from
one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium
copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use
in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total
weight of the projectile.
https://www.wideners.com/blog/green-tip-ammo/
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

zippz

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2024, 02:29:46 PM »
Adding to it, the Fed ban applies to manufacturing and selling by licensees.  It doesn't apply to people possessing it.
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Begle1

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2024, 03:29:59 PM »
So the only especially banned type of AP ammo as far as Hawaii is concerned is Teflon-coated? Otherwise it is just Federal regs?

What does "segment upon impact" mean? Why doesn't that apply to hollow points?
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changemyoil66

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2024, 03:36:34 PM »
Quote from: Begle1 on May 23, 2024, 03:29:59 PM
So the only especially banned type of AP ammo as far as Hawaii is concerned is Teflon-coated? Otherwise it is just Federal regs?

What does "segment upon impact" mean? Why doesn't that apply to hollow points?

HP aren't designed to segment, but mushroom. This is why it doesn't apply to HP. 

For AP, the key word is "coated". So even a tungsten core isn't "coated". So just federal laws.
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zippz

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2024, 04:05:58 PM »
Quote from: Begle1 on May 23, 2024, 03:29:59 PM
So the only especially banned type of AP ammo as far as Hawaii is concerned is Teflon-coated? Otherwise it is just Federal regs?

What does "segment upon impact" mean? Why doesn't that apply to hollow points?

Segmented means it is made to break up on impact, on purpose.  Regular hollowpoints are made to stay together in one piece and more effective that way, but routinely break up from damage.

Example of segmenting ammo





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Flapp_Jackson

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2024, 07:18:21 PM »
Quote from: Begle1 on May 23, 2024, 03:29:59 PM
So the only especially banned type of AP ammo as far as Hawaii is concerned is Teflon-coated? Otherwise it is just Federal regs?

What does "segment upon impact" mean? Why doesn't that apply to hollow points?


You skipped over a few key words:
Quote
...coated with teflon or any other similar coating designed
primarily to enhance its capability to penetrate metal or
pierce protective armor...
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

zippz

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2024, 07:34:20 PM »
FYI, history on the teflon coated "cop killer" bullets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon-coated_bullet

Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets, such as windshield glass and automobile doors.

The inventors, having also noted that the tips of walking canes were frequently covered with the relatively soft and malleable Teflon to help them grip surfaces, found that the addition of Teflon helped to prevent bullet deflections from vehicle doors and windshields, further improving penetration against those surfaces

In fact, Teflon cut down on the round's ability to cut through the nylon or Kevlar of body armor.
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Begle1

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2024, 07:42:00 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on May 23, 2024, 07:18:21 PM

You skipped over a few key words:

What types of bullets have coatings on them that are banned in Hawaii?

This is particularly relevant when I'm buying ammo on the mainland and bringing it over in baggage.
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macsak

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2024, 08:15:57 PM »
why don't you tell us what you want to buy, and then we will tell you what we think?
note that we are not LE (except for EEF and a couple others), nor are we  prosecutors or other lawyers
if you just stick with fmj, HP, and polymer coated, you should be fine...

Quote from: Begle1 on May 23, 2024, 07:42:00 PM
What types of bullets have coatings on them that are banned in Hawaii?

This is particularly relevant when I'm buying ammo on the mainland and bringing it over in baggage.
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Begle1

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2024, 09:13:07 PM »
Have there ever been any Hawaii cases on the matter? I recognize that "what the law says" versus "whether or how the law is enforced" is often quite different. 

I would think that the Black Dragon Fang or TB6 5.7 ammo could be illegal due to it being "segmented"? That's what my immediate question was.


I have a running "if you bring me ammo you can stay in my guest room" deal with friends and family so it'd be nice to know they don't bring my some illegal stuff by mistake, or if that'd even be possible. Like, can I even buy Teflon-coated ammo anywhere in the country? Based on a quick search it doesn't seem like anybody currently sells such a thing. There are polymer-coated bullets but as far I as see none are "designed primarily" to enhance penetration.
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zippz

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2024, 10:29:31 PM »
I don't know of any cases in Hawaii.  I'd imagine it would be difficult to catch someone for it as segmenting ammo usually looks like regular ammo unfired and someone would have to be shot with it to tell.  It'd also be rare to find in Hawaii since stores wouldn't stock it.

I would play it safe and call it segmenting ammunition by looking at the bullet design and gel test pics.

I doubt there's teflon coated AP bullets anywhere now.  There were experimental stuff way back when some people tried to make solid steel or brass AP handgun bullets and the teflon was meant to lubricate the bore.

Stupid law anyways.
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Rocky

Re: What are "armor piercing" bullets in Hawaii?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2024, 08:09:05 AM »
   You really have to think of what the definition of "armor" is.

   Level IIIA armor will stop handgun rounds up to 44 mag and .357 Sig.
Any high speed rifle round could penetrate it.

Level IIIA is rated to stop rifle threats up to 7.62 M80 Ball, any thing larger/faster could penetrate it.
And so on
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