Is a KelTec P50 legal in Hawaii?

It would be an "assault pistol", IF it had a "detachable magazine".

As far as I can tell, Hawaii currently has no definition of "detachable magazine" in our law. But recent bills (like SB401) and other states define "detachable magazine" as one that can be removed without breaking the action; the KelTec product requires breaking the action to change mags, so it uses a "fixed" magazine by the definition used in other jurisdictions.


If it isn't an assault pistol, it's a fixed magazine pistol... Which as far as I can tell would also make the 50 round P90 magazines it uses fully legal, for they aren't detachable magazines that can be used in a (not assault pistol) pistol.

(Of course, for those of us with P90 magazines for our PS90's or R50's, we'd be surprised to learn that we couldn't have the 50 round magazines we already have.)

It is a magazine and it detaches so I wouldn't volunteer to be the test case.

From a practical standpoint, you're looking at a pistol which would be limited to only 10rd mags.  Each mag is about $50.

Do you really want a pistol that requires you to raise the upper section, remove a mag I estimate is about 10" long, place another mag in its spot, and then snap the upper back in place providing you only 10rds per mag load?

People want what they want, but i don't see that it has any advantage over a standard pistol other than a possible increase in muzzle velocity from its longer barrel.  But, you'd need to compare that to other 5.7 x 28mm handguns and then weigh that against the benefits of other calibers.

It's fine to ask the legality questions for unique firearms such as this, but in the end, are you really going to be happy owning it in Hawaii?  It would be like buying a large RV here.  You can, but should you?  Would you?

Personally, if i can't make use of the 50rd mags, then what's the point other than it looks cool?   

As far as I can tell, Hawaii currently has no definition of "detachable magazine" in our law. But recent bills (like SB401) and other states define "detachable magazine" as one that can be removed without breaking the action; the KelTec product requires breaking the action to change mags, so it uses a "fixed" magazine by the definition used in other jurisdictions.

Since those definitions aren't in the HRS text, they don't exist.

The lawsuit challenging this is NAGR v Lopez for Hawaii's Assault Pistol and Magazine bans.  Probably be years for that to be decided, unless SCOTUS picks up a similar appeal prior.

If it isn't a "detachable magazine", then it isn't limited to 10 rounds.

Law says:
"The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited."


All fixed magazines can be detached with enough disassembly.

If the P50 doesn't have a fixed magazine as it comes from KelTec, then the obvious follow-up question is, what would it take to make it a fixed magazine?

The design is such that it would be possible to hold the magazine captive in the firearm with a bolt or rivet or similar. As long as you get somebody to make that modification on the mainland, the gun could be then transferred to and registered in Hawaii, right?

KelTec also offers the PR57, a more-conventional 20-round fixed magazine 5.7 pistol legal in Hawaii.

Since those definitions aren't in the HRS text, they don't exist.

The lawsuit challenging this is NAGR v Lopez for Hawaii's Assault Pistol and Magazine bans.  Probably be years for that to be decided, unless SCOTUS picks up a similar appeal prior.

If one wanted to push the issue, what'd be the best way to go about it?

Start by trying to get a Permit to Acquire for one?

I could just email "firearms@mpd" and see what they say...

If it isn't a "detachable magazine", then it isn't limited to 10 rounds.

Law says:
"The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited."


All fixed magazines can be detached with enough disassembly.

If the P50 doesn't have a fixed magazine as it comes from KelTec, then the obvious follow-up question is, what would it take to make it a fixed magazine?

The design is such that it would be possible to hold the magazine captive in the firearm with a bolt or rivet or similar. As long as you get somebody to make that modification on the mainland, the gun could be then transferred to and registered in Hawaii, right?

KelTec also offers the PR57, a more-conventional 20-round fixed magazine 5.7 pistol legal in Hawaii.

Deductive reasoning tells me that KelTec would not manufacture 10rd mags unless the firearm needed them to comply with capacity limits in states with such limits.  Therefore, it's considered by the manufacturer to be detachable. 

Hawaii law makes magazine restrictions more convoluted than they ought to be.  It's the reason AR-15 magazines have been considered a "gray area" since no semi-auto pistols with detachable mags can be legally acquired here -- thus any >10rd mags are only able to be used (legally) in semi-auto rifles and are therefore not restricted to 10rds.

You're kind of creating a moving target by asking multiple questions.  First, is the P50 legal here?  If you decide it is not, only then would you want to brainstorm ways to modify the firearm to make it legal.  No need to discuss mods if you believe the law allows it straight from the factory.

Detachable magazine means an ammunition feeding device that can be
loaded or unloaded while detached from a firearm and readily inserted
into a firearm.

Washington state law

"Detachable" simply means able to be removed / unattached.

When the law doesn't offer a definition, plain language meanings usually prevail.  You can't expect citizens of Hawaii to seek out definitions from other states to glean what our legislature meant.  Either law makers included a definition, or it's assumed they were comfortable with the plain English meaning of the words they chose.

Check out Chapter 2 Section 4 paragraph c.  Definitions:

The purpose of a definition is to achieve clarity and consistency without
burdensome repetition. A definition should sufficiently frame and identify for the
reader what a term means within the context and application of the law. However,
a definition should not contain substantive provisions of law (i.e., provisions that
authorize, require, or prohibit certain actions).
...
Avoid drafting definitions that state the obvious, are for terms that are used only
once, or are tortured (i.e., long, drawn out, or unnecessarily wordy). Certain terms
are already defined in the Hawaii Revised Statutes.
...

https://lrb.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022_HawaiiLegislativeDraftingManual.pdf

If one wanted to push the issue, what'd be the best way to go about it?

Start by trying to get a Permit to Acquire for one?

I could just email "firearms@mpd" and see what they say...

Easiest way is to just ask MPD.  MPD is the most 2A lenient county in Hawaii.  Maybe they'll say it's OK.  Worse they can do is say no.

You could get a permit to acquire, but they don't check the weapon.  It's a check on the person.  Registration is when they check the weapon, if you bring it in for inspection.  You could be out a gun in that case.

You could try and change the law, but I feel it would be turned against us and wind up making the law more restrictive.

Just have to wait on the NAGR lawsuit or SCOTUS.

Easiest way is to just ask MPD.  MPD is the most 2A lenient county in Hawaii.  Maybe they'll say it's OK.  Worse they can do is say no.

You could get a permit to acquire, but they don't check the weapon.  It's a check on the person.  Registration is when they check the weapon, if you bring it in for inspection.  You could be out a gun in that case.

You could try and change the law, but I feel it would be turned against us and wind up making the law more restrictive.

Just have to wait on the NAGR lawsuit or SCOTUS.

Waiting on SCOTUS lawsuits is like waiting for Godot. I was really expecting Ocean State/ Snope v Brown to be decided last term... And rumor is that it wasn't because they don't have the judges to overturn the bans. So I have extremely guarded hopes regarding the Supreme Court bailing us out.


I'll ask the PD. I won't trust their answer, but it'll be interesting to see what they say and I reckon I'm not out anything either way.

If it isn't a "detachable magazine", then it isn't limited to 10 rounds.

Law says:
"The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited."


All fixed magazines can be detached with enough disassembly.

If the P50 doesn't have a fixed magazine as it comes from KelTec, then the obvious follow-up question is, what would it take to make it a fixed magazine?

The design is such that it would be possible to hold the magazine captive in the firearm with a bolt or rivet or similar. As long as you get somebody to make that modification on the mainland, the gun could be then transferred to and registered in Hawaii, right?

KelTec also offers the PR57, a more-conventional 20-round fixed magazine 5.7 pistol legal in Hawaii.

In theory you probably design a mechanism which holds the magazine in place to where it would have to be removed using a tool and maybe it could be done in such a way that the person at the firearms division wouldn't consider it detachable. Maybe consider other guns which can fill the purpose you are looking at?

I emailed my local PD and they replied that a P50 was an assault pistol. I then asked the follow-up question, whether it'd still be an assault pistol if the magazine was further "fixed" to the lower-part of the gun, and received no response.

To press the issue, I'd imagine the best route would be to find an FFL willing to advertise a "P50-HI", and just throw up a web page where they mock up a P50 that has a bolted down, riveted or welded on. Then I could show that product to the PD and ask "so is this an assault pistol?"

Would there be a better route to take?

I emailed my local PD and they replied that a P50 was an assault pistol. I then asked the follow-up question, whether it'd still be an assault pistol if the magazine was further "fixed" to the lower-part of the gun, and received no response.

To press the issue, I'd imagine the best route would be to find an FFL willing to advertise a "P50-HI", and just throw up a web page where they mock up a P50 that has a bolted down, riveted or welded on. Then I could show that product to the PD and ask "so is this an assault pistol?"

Would there be a better route to take?

I don't think going to an FFL would accomplish much for you there. They would be doing extra work for a sale they probably couldn't make. Now if the FFL brought the gun in and you purchased it then you would at least have some sort of defense since you can argue that you believed it to be legal but if the department takes the gun away you are still out that money unless they allow you to sell it to someone on the mainland . You could show them some advertisement or video of the gun modified but the ultimate answer will be when they look at the gun itself so I don't think you will get an answer from them based on a picture of video that you can take to the bank.

Would you be able to reload a P50 mag that was affixed to the gun though? It can be done on an AR-15 platform pretty easily but it might not be easy to do on this gun/

The P50/ R50 hinges open with the magazine facing up, so it'd still be usable if the magazine was "permanently" affixed to the bottom half of the gun. You could even separate the hinge to disassemble the magazine.

I reckon you'd ideally want the magazine to have a little bit of wiggle to it, so it could locate and mate itself to the top half of the gun when closed. But that's probably not necessary.


My logic is that, I don't expect any FFL on the mainland is going to send an unmodified P50 to Hawaii, nor any FFL in Hawaii would import one. But if I can find a mainland FFL willing to plastiweld the magazine to the gun for me, and then advertise that gun as a "P50HI - Fixed Magazine Edition", then I can send that advertisement to the PD and hopefully get them to say "well, that's obviously a fixed magazine by any definition", then I could take that response and show it to all the FFL's involved to make them feel better about the transaction.

This seems extremely doable, and it'd be a fun conversation starter, but I don't really want to spend $1000 right now on a fixed-magazine P50 to go along with the R50 I already have. If anybody reading this is interested in a fixed-mag P50HI though... I'd be happy to participate in the project.


I don't know what the P50 would actually be good for. Decent "sub gun", it'd be in the running for the most compact firepower you could legally have in Hawaii, assuming you never want more than 51 rounds. Put a 1-point sling on it and practice tensioning the sling by pushing forward. I would be interested in an XP100 in 221 Fireball, to scope and shoot good groups at 200 yards with as tiny a gun as possible, and the P50 can almost do what the XP100 can, but the P50 is even longer... At 15" overall length, you're only 1-3 inches from folding or takedown rifle territory.

I don't think any gun maker or FFL would take on the responsibility of making a HI legal one.  The profit isn't going to be that big.

Lets look at the Shockwave as an example, HPD said it was illegal as the barrel was less than 18 inches (shotgun).  Even though the manufacturer stated its 50 state legal and not a shotgun or something along those lines.

From the HI definition of what is not an "assault pistol" and those that I've seen here, everyone made them as there is no manufacturer who makes a HI legal one.  What you would have to do is find a gunsmith on the mainland to make it HI compliant, then have it FFL'd here.

Asking the police department isn't always reliable.  And if you ask the AG's office, they will tell you they don't answer questions and to seek an attorney.

So in the end, it all depends on how much time and effort you want to spend on this project.

The permanently attached AR platform mags that I've seen, the ammo is loaded by either taking the upper and lower apart and then rounds loaded into the exposed mag or from the opening of the dust cover.

A p50/PS90 mag doesn't work like this as the feeding is face down into the guns. So there is really no way of loading the mag if it's attached to the gun. Unless you make a special type of mag that hasn't been made yet.  Making it belt fed would be easier.

The P50/ R50 hinges open with the magazine facing up, so it'd still be usable if the magazine was "permanently" affixed to the bottom half of the gun. You could even separate the hinge to disassemble the magazine.

I reckon you'd ideally want the magazine to have a little bit of wiggle to it, so it could locate and mate itself to the top half of the gun when closed. But that's probably not necessary.


My logic is that, I don't expect any FFL on the mainland is going to send an unmodified P50 to Hawaii, nor any FFL in Hawaii would import one. But if I can find a mainland FFL willing to plastiweld the magazine to the gun for me, and then advertise that gun as a "P50HI - Fixed Magazine Edition", then I can send that advertisement to the PD and hopefully get them to say "well, that's obviously a fixed magazine by any definition", then I could take that response and show it to all the FFL's involved to make them feel better about the transaction.

This seems extremely doable, and it'd be a fun conversation starter, but I don't really want to spend $1000 right now on a fixed-magazine P50 to go along with the R50 I already have. If anybody reading this is interested in a fixed-mag P50HI though... I'd be happy to participate in the project.


I don't know what the P50 would actually be good for. Decent "sub gun", it'd be in the running for the most compact firepower you could legally have in Hawaii, assuming you never want more than 51 rounds. Put a 1-point sling on it and practice tensioning the sling by pushing forward. I would be interested in an XP100 in 221 Fireball, to scope and shoot good groups at 200 yards with as tiny a gun as possible, and the P50 can almost do what the XP100 can, but the P50 is even longer... At 15" overall length, you're only 1-3 inches from folding or takedown rifle territory.

If Gun Shops here can receive suppressors, I would think they could obtain pretty much anything they want as long as they ensure the end user complies with HI laws.  I know at least one gun shop that ordered a bunch of suppressors for either LE or military training.  Suppressors are just as illegal in HI as assault pistols, since they are covered by the NFA (for now, anyway).

The big problems is not getting an FFL to acquire one, but who will be doing the work to make it legal?  You're asking for a specific, unusual modification.  Maybe you can find one that will let you use their shop to do the mods yourself as long as they are present?  Maybe you'll have to release them of any damages if they screw it up having never done this before?  If this were as straight forward as pinning and welding a muzzle device to a <16" barrel, I think you can find lots of willing shops.  For this, you will need to provide specs on what you want done so there's no mistakes.

§134-8 Ownership, etc., of automatic firearms, silencers, etc., prohibited;
penalties. (a) The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer,
or acquisition of any of the following is prohibited: assault pistols, except as
provided by section 134-4(e); automatic firearms; rifles with barrel lengths
less than sixteen inches; shotguns with barrel lengths less than eighteen
inches; cannons; mufflers, silencers, or devices for deadening or muffling
the sound of discharged firearms; hand grenades, dynamite, blasting caps,
bombs, or bombshells, or other explosives; or any type of ammunition or
any projectile component thereof coated with teflon or any other similar
coating designed primarily to enhance its capability to penetrate metal or
pierce protective armor; and any type of ammunition or any projectile
component thereof designed or intended to explode or segment upon
impact with its target.

A p50/PS90 mag doesn't work like this as the feeding is face down into the guns. So there is really no way of loading the mag if it's attached to the gun. Unless you make a special type of mag that hasn't been made yet.  Making it belt fed would be easier.

See attached for what a KelTec P50 looks like. There are plethora of ways that the magazine could be "fixed" to the gun and still be functional, the most-pertinent problem being that the only way that matters is the one that meets the definition of "fixed" that the cops/ prosecutors get to make up on the spot.


I'll ask my local FFL's if they'd be interested in making the modifications or at least "marketing" it to the local PD. That'd eliminate the need to find a FFL on the mainland to do so.

I reckon that plastic-welding the magazine to the lower half of the gun is the "nuclear option"; that would be fixed well beyond the definition of "fixed magazine" that AR-variants or something like an Enfield or SKS are fixed according to. I should talk to KelTec too to see if they'd provide me an extra "lower portion"; luckily the part that'd be getting buggered isn't serialized.

See attached for what a KelTec P50 looks like. There are plethora of ways that the magazine could be "fixed" to the gun and still be functional, the most-pertinent problem being that the only way that matters is the one that meets the definition of "fixed" that the cops/ prosecutors get to make up on the spot.


I'll ask my local FFL's if they'd be interested in making the modifications or at least "marketing" it to the local PD. That'd eliminate the need to find a FFL on the mainland to do so.

I reckon that plastic-welding the magazine to the lower half of the gun is the "nuclear option"; that would be fixed well beyond the definition of "fixed magazine" that AR-variants or something like an Enfield or SKS are fixed according to. I should talk to KelTec too to see if they'd provide me an extra "lower portion"; luckily the part that'd be getting buggered isn't serialized.

My mistake, I thought it was like the PS90 and face down. So in this case, you would easily epoxy the mag to the firearm. 

P50 isn't legal here but R50 is as it has a 16" barrel.  The 50 rd. mags are also legal as they don't fit into a pistol. 

P50 isn't legal here but R50 is as it has a 16" barrel.  The 50 rd. mags are also legal as they don't fit into a pistol.

"Assault pistol" prohibitions only apply to guns with detachable magazines, so how can we go about fixing the magazine on a P50 to make it legal?

I have an R50 already.