Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs (Read 32653 times)

fstbckgt

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2013, 04:41:25 PM »
I'd just keep a big can of mace near the front door. Less lethal with plenty of oomph.

Dblnaknak

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2013, 04:58:23 PM »
  I will say that you have never seen the pit bull that my uncle raised to hunt pigs.  That thing was nasty.  As a little puppy, it was cool and I played with it.  After it grew up it was huge.

Remember that one does not need to fear for death to use deadly force. 

Don't assume.... My parents raised and bred red nose pit bulls for money. One thing I learned is its not the dog, its the owner and their training/ treatment of the dog that matters.

Last I checked, you need to believe that you were faced with deadly force to justify using deadly force in self defense. I would love to see you explain to the judge and jury that you didn't fear death and you wasnt really sure that you were going to die, but you used deadly force "just in case". Haha. Can you say "I'm bubba bitch" for the next 10-20 years.

PeaShooter

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2013, 05:06:55 PM »
I don't know much about dogs. What are some other potentially dangerous breeds of dog? The pitbulls I've seen have usually looked sort of small, sad, and gentle to me...compared to the other kinds of BIG and aggressive dogs that I have seen.

Lots of big dog breeds are gentle too. But those big ones that charge and go berserk, foaming at the mouth at any person they see are pretty threatening.

fstbckgt

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2013, 06:11:57 PM »
Any breed can be potentially dangerous. 9 times out of 10 aggressive behavior in a dog is due to abuse, maltreatment, or general ignorance of the owner. Train your dogs, acclimate them to be around people, other dogs, etc. When I lived on the mainland me and my dad took our dog everywhere, he even chilled in the truck while we were at the range.

Also don't get a high energy or working breed if you can't give the dog the time of day to expend said energy. Too many people do so and then complain when the pent up energy results in behavioral problems.

Dblnaknak

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2013, 06:52:41 PM »
Any breed can be potentially dangerous. 9 times out of 10 aggressive behavior in a dog is due to abuse, maltreatment, or general ignorance of the owner. Train your dogs, acclimate them to be around people, other dogs, etc. When I lived on the mainland me and my dad took our dog everywhere, he even chilled in the truck while we were at the range.

Also don't get a high energy or working breed if you can't give the dog the time of day to expend said energy. Too many people do so and then complain when the pent up energy results in behavioral problems.

+1  :thumbsup:

PeaShooter

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2013, 12:28:45 PM »
Let me rephrase the question. What dog breeds have a reputation or tendency towards being dangerous or aggressive toward humans? I'm asking because I always hear people saying pitbull, but pitbulls have never seemed to be near the top of the list to me, based on all the large and vicious dogs I have seen during my lifetime which were not pit bulls, but I'm not sure what breed they were.

moosed

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Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2013, 01:05:01 PM »
Let me rephrase the question. What dog breeds have a reputation or tendency towards being dangerous or aggressive toward humans? I'm asking because I always hear people saying pitbull, but pitbulls have never seemed to be near the top of the list to me, based on all the large and vicious dogs I have seen during my lifetime which were not pit bulls, but I'm not sure what breed they were.

The breeds most likely to kill

http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/the-breeds-most-likely-to-kill.html
Quote
Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities."
When only cops have guns, it's called a "police state".

Hunter1007

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2013, 03:08:16 PM »
Quick question. Wouldn't it be quicker and more accessable to grab a knife from the kitchen or blunt object like a shovel or rake... shoot a hammer in the garage than run in the house open your safe to grab your gun? Just saying :thumbsup:

bass monkey

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2013, 03:13:06 PM »
Not sure about others on here, but my pistol is always within reach

Hunter1007

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2013, 03:23:50 PM »
Not sure about others on here, but my pistol is always within reach

I'm with you on that bro but the vast majority of gun owners don't. Even cops don't carry 100% of the time.

GZire

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2013, 03:54:47 PM »
Don't assume.... My parents raised and bred red nose pit bulls for money. One thing I learned is its not the dog, its the owner and their training/ treatment of the dog that matters.

Last I checked, you need to believe that you were faced with deadly force to justify using deadly force in self defense. I would love to see you explain to the judge and jury that you didn't fear death and you wasnt really sure that you were going to die, but you used deadly force "just in case". Haha. Can you say "I'm bubba bitch" for the next 10-20 years.

Negative............fear of maiming is also justification in addition to rape/sodomy/kidnapping.  It does not have to be death.

It can also be contributing factors such as disparity of force..........so big powerful dog attacking versus small dog.  Smaller attacking dog vs. child.  Several men against a single person. Man against woman (barring some of the samoan gals who buss up their hubbies).



Below is the link to the applicable HRS.  You will notice that I have highlighted the maiming section [703-304(2)], also that you do not have to retreat from your house [703-304(5)(b)(i)].  Again regardless of how the dog got the way it was, the fact that it broke through a door and killed something, to me (a reasonable person), means that I most certainly could be next.  Fleeing can lead to trigger of a predatory response.  With this all in mind and the fact that I have to act quickly means that I feel justified in using a firearm to stop the threat.  Now this said, I am responsible for each and every round I fire. So if I miss and endanger someone, then it's on me.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0304.htm

Quote
§703-304  Use of force in self-protection.  (1)  Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-308, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.

     (2)  The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.

     (3)  Except as otherwise provided in subsections (4) and (5) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do, or abstaining from any lawful action.

     (4)  The use of force is not justifiable under this section:

    (a)   To resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a law enforcement officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or

    (b)   To resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:

         (i)  The actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest; or

        (ii)  The actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.

     (5)  The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section if:

    (a)   The actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

    (b)   The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

         (i)  The actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and

        (ii)  A public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties, or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape, is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform his duty, effect the arrest, or prevent the escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom the action is directed.

     (6)  The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of confinement as protective force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he safely can, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime. [L 1972, c 9, pt of §1; ree L 1975, c 163, §3; am L 2001, c 91, §4]

GZire

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2013, 03:57:28 PM »
Quick question. Wouldn't it be quicker and more accessable to grab a knife from the kitchen or blunt object like a shovel or rake... shoot a hammer in the garage than run in the house open your safe to grab your gun? Just saying :thumbsup:

Depends on the situation.  Also depends on what you think is going to end the threat the quickest.  A shovel might be good as you can keep the dog at a distance.  A knife might be a bad idea as most of us do not know how to use one and it puts us within reach of the dog...........one slip and you are on the ground and the dog is at your throat.

Dblnaknak

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2013, 04:33:21 PM »
Negative............fear of maiming is also justification in addition to rape/sodomy/kidnapping.  It does not have to be death.


I thought we were talking about dogs? I guess if you can't stop a dog from kidnapping or sodomizing you then you are justified in using deadly force. You can believe that it is your right to do something up to the point when the judge hands your sentence to you.

GZire

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2013, 10:21:20 AM »
I thought we were talking about dogs? I guess if you can't stop a dog from kidnapping or sodomizing you then you are justified in using deadly force. You can believe that it is your right to do something up to the point when the judge hands your sentence to you.



Bro...........this is about use of deadly force.  So you telling me if a tiger/elephant/etc is running around then you cannot use deadly force to protect yourself?  Do you remember Tyke rampaging through Kakaako?

HiCarry

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2013, 02:35:32 PM »
Last I checked, dogs don't carry knifes or guns... But I guess in your world anything is possible.

In my world I wouldn't have to deal with idiots that can't figure out a simple analogy. Your purposeful avoidance of meaningful debate about a statement you made and now cannot defend is pretty convincing that in your world, you're an idiot.....
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 10:32:45 PM by HiCarry »

moosed

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Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2013, 02:57:14 PM »
Last I checked, dogs don't carry knifes or guns... But I guess in your world anything is possible.

First of all, it's KNIVES, not KNIFES...

Secondly, animals are animals, and their behavior is governed by instinct, reactions, and training.  Even the best trained dogs can break from their conditioning and attack a perceived threat, or they could go with the pack mentality mimicking another, less well-trained dog. 

These dogs have big enough teeth to inflict the same wounds as effectively as any knife.  Your argument about carrying knives or not is irrelevant.

Thirdly, you should stop trying to apply Hawaii statues literally when you KNOW they are pretty much all inadequately written to begin with.  The laws are NOT written to keep dogs from attacking.  Here, our lawmakers apparently thought addressing liability AFTER an animal attack was sufficient.

LESSON:  Whenever the law is silent OR AMBIGUOUS on a specific topic or situation, the correct course is to interpret the law in favor of the citizen rather than the state.

Unless there is case law to the contrary, that's how these things are adjudicated.  There need not be a "reasonable person" test nor a "self defense" evaluation.  If there are no laws making the killing of attacking dogs illegal, that in and of itself will not be a problem.

The other side of the coin is, you may have to answer for discharging a firearm in a populated/residential area if relevant.  But, I doubt anything will come of the specific act of killing the dog/s.  If the dog is not under the control of the owner or another person, then the situation is on them, not you.

That's just my unprofessional 2 cents!

I'm not a lawyer, but I did get a very restful sleep last night! :sleeping:
When only cops have guns, it's called a "police state".

Q

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2013, 11:18:45 PM »
.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:42:17 AM by Q »

PeaShooter

Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2013, 12:25:39 PM »
Thanks for the link, moosed. I looked at it and also looked up pics and sizes for some of the various breeds mentioned.

I'd heard about the dangerous potential of Rottweilers, but haven't met any that I can remember.

There seems to be various kinds of pit bulls that vary significantly in size and appearance. At least regarding the smaller ones, I've always thought they weren't too scary and even if I found one rampaging in my house, I might be alright with taking some risk and trying to subdue it with a stick, or just plain physical force.

The pictures that most resembled the large and vicious dogs I've known over my life turned out to be Doberman Pinscher and Great Dane. The actual dogs I knew were probably mixes of these and other breeds. The ones that threaten me the most are the big, tall, and lean ones. They are fast and some of them weigh more than I do.

moosed

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Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2013, 12:51:15 PM »
Pit Bulls are not any more aggressive than other breeds.  What makes them dangerous is their determination and relentless attacks. First, Pits are not known to bark and growl before attacking.  They go straight from docile to attack mode with little to no warning.  That by itself means the person or animal in danger has little reaction time.  Then, when they are on their "prey", they will not quit!  They are in it to win it ... and win means kill!

So, all the Pit bull owners that say, "My dog is the sweetest dog!  He wouldn't hurt anyone or anything!"  You need to understand.  Owning a Pit Bull is like owning a 12 gauge shotgun instead of a .22 pistol.  Yours may not be any more likely to cause harm than the other when under your control. But if and when an accident does happen, the result is much worse when you own the 12 gauge/pit bull!!
When only cops have guns, it's called a "police state".

Bigkahuna808

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Re: Justified in stopping 2 attacking dogs
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2013, 09:17:48 PM »
As a former animal control officer I can say is do what u need to do to defened human life.  Under hawaii laws and how weak animal related laws are you may get a slap on the wrist.  Your biggest issue would be endangering the public for discharging a firearm within city limits.  Do what you gotta do just don't get caught doing something stupid and wreckless.

Animals are considered "property" under the law for most part.

Pitbulls are not all bad dogs, like a gun in the wrong hands they can be deadly.  I had to respsond to a case in makaha where a owner was giving his pitbull steroids.  One day the owner tried to take the dogs food away in the kennel.  The dog bit off his skull cap.

I have prob dozens and dozens of crazy stories  of dog attack incidents. 

Fyi of the 4 times I've been bitten 3x was by min pins and once by a mix Aust