Holy shit you are going all out haha

you forgot about...

What if it was a meteorite?

"They" were supposed to get a mechanic to retrieve the object.  Anyone know when that'll happen?

I'm following this with great interest and admiration for the technical analyses (thanks, zipz!), since I've heard too many (anecdotal) stories about anti-gun people faking bullet holes and tales about "the bullets went right by my head and I coulda been killed" just to demonize shooting ranges and shooters.

One widely-reported story that isn't anecdotal:

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/08/15/msm-propaganda-watch-ready-aimnot-fired/

Terry, 230RN

Z...............you are the man.

"They" were supposed to get a mechanic to retrieve the object.  Anyone know when that'll happen?

See, that bothers me.  Whatever they produce, there is no chain of custody, no verification.  She drives her van to the mechanic, who sometime later comes out and puts an object (rock, bullet, meteorite, dense seagull poop, whatever) in her hand.  That's the sort of thing that gets laughed out of a courtroom.  So even if, even if, her van actually did get shot, there's no incentive for people to believe it.  And, of course, even if her van didn't get shot, there's no incentive for people to believe that.  This is a lose-lose scenario in terms of proof and accountability. 

Way to drop the ball, HPD.

"They" were supposed to get a mechanic to retrieve the object.  Anyone know when that'll happen?

I'm following this with great interest and admiration for the technical analyses (thanks, zipz!), since I've heard too many (anecdotal) stories about anti-gun people faking bullet holes and tales about "the bullets went right by my head and I coulda been killed" just to demonize shooting ranges and shooters.

One widely-reported story that isn't anecdotal:

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/08/15/msm-propaganda-watch-ready-aimnot-fired/

Terry, 230RN

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Check out page 1 for a close up photo of the damage. There is NO hole. Just a dent and flaky paint.
Therefore no bullet rattling around in the headliner.
The dent is consistent with what I would expect of a bullet coming from that distance and striking a glancing blow on a flat surface.

I was wondering about that chain-of-custody thing myself, so thanks, Tom_G.

I was undecided on that pic of the supposed damage as to whether it really was a hole (with the light-colored internal insulation showing through) or just a dent.

The main problem here is that the allegation itself is damaging to our cause, even if it was just from stiff seagull poop ( ) or an actual firearms projectile, or the whole story was just plain old soft bull manure altogether.  With most of these things, you see the accusation on page one and the subsequent dismissal or correction on page 23A ---weeks later.

Accusations are cheap.  Defense is expensive.

Terry

^^^Indeed.  Does anyone know who her husband is?

Tried running a search on her, but only thing I could find is some minor traffic violations.

Here's teh bullets! They came from the range I tell you!

Looked at some news articles, and looks like the car got hit by the 2nd restroom area where people fly the kites, so it would be 7,500ft.  Don't think a 44 mag would reach that far so would have to be a stronger round, M193 may not make it that far out of a 16 inch barrel, maybe with a 20inch barrel and good winds or M855 62gr round could make it there.  The pictures do show a hole or tear in the roof, probably from something hitting at an angle. Would be cool if it was proven to be a meteorite.

Here's teh bullets! They came from the range I tell you!

Those are the new reusable bullets.

=============================
Check out page 1 for a close up photo of the damage. There is NO hole. Just a dent and flaky paint.
Therefore no bullet rattling around in the headliner.
The dent is consistent with what I would expect of a bullet coming from that distance and striking a glancing blow on a flat surface.

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/22443501/possible-stray-bullet-strikes-van-at-sandy-beach

In the 2nd picture from the hawaiinewsnow site it kinda looks like there's a hole closest to the roof rib to me on the left side of the picture.  I have never taken apart that particular model of Honda Odyssey but older models were single layer roof panels with reinforcements.  If it's similar and there is a hole whatever is inside the roof is either on the headliner which has it's own reinforcements as well as the roof vents and ducts for the AC or inside one of the reinforcements for the roof.  I understand the chain of custody problems but if they really want to preserve the chain of custody the headliner can be dropped in 30 minutes or less.  Not a long time to have whoever is to collect the item stand around and document the retrieval.  And they should be able to get to it with the headliner sagged down or completely removed.

I'm not too familiar with how much energy is needed to dent or puncture sheet metal (around 22 gauge just guessing based on past feel)?.  But lose enough energy or not retain enough to not continue through the headliner?  Too many hypothetical parameters I guess.  Saw the other stuff from zippz but those are a bit beyond what I understand.

The problem with .223 or 5.56 is that the bullet will be transonic by that distance.  I doubt a run of the mill .223 or even Mk 262 will make it there without keyholing. How many people shoot 90s out of an AR or .223 cartridge?

See, that bothers me.  Whatever they produce, there is no chain of custody, no verification.  She drives her van to the mechanic, who sometime later comes out and puts an object (rock, bullet, meteorite, dense seagull poop, whatever) in her hand.  That's the sort of thing that gets laughed out of a courtroom.  So even if, even if, her van actually did get shot, there's no incentive for people to believe it.  And, of course, even if her van didn't get shot, there's no incentive for people to believe that.  This is a lose-lose scenario in terms of proof and accountability. 

Way to drop the ball, HPD.

That is a bullshit investigation.

"Well ma'am, were not going to retrieve the evidence you claim is stuck in the headliner.
Why don't you call your insurance company and have them schedule a repair shop to retrieve whatever you say is stuck in the roof and just bring it to us whenever you can.
After you bring us whatever it is you want us to believe hit your vehicle, we will resume our investigation."

The problem with .223 or 5.56 is that the bullet will be transonic by that distance.  I doubt a run of the mill .223 or even Mk 262 will make it there without keyholing. How many people shoot 90s out of an AR or .223 cartridge?

either way, thats still a mile and a half with wind.  how much energy is a 5.56 even carrying at that distance, keyholing or not?

dont know how accurate this is, but if it is, you've already lost half your velocity and 2/3 your energy at 500 yards with run of the mill 5.56 rounds.




wonder what those numbers look like at 1500 meters.  or 2000 meters, which is roughly the distance this "bullet" traveled.

The problem with those "pictures" is that they're actually stills captured from a video camera.  Even if it was a true HD camera, that's just 1920x1080 @ 72dpi, a far crappier resolution than it is even possible to buy in a still camera today.  But, to my eyes, we're seeing a DENT in the roof, not a hole.  The jagged edges are flaking paint.  Whatever is rattling around in the headliner is part of the car that got broken off by the impact.  Maybe a shard of plastic inside an A/C duct?  Anyway, I predict that there will not be a bullet found.

Which doesn't mean it didn't happen.  I've seen a lot of bullet holes, and bullet dents, and they do look like that crappy picture.

since this was near to the area that have people flying kites, one of the offending kites did a dive bomb and the hard ribbed kite dented and punctured the surface. with the info we have at this time, there is no evidence of a bullet. the offending kite operator then maneuvered his kite out of sight and distance of the van.

 

since this was near to the area that have people flying kites, one of the offending kites did a dive bomb and the hard ribbed kite dented and punctured the surface. with the info we have at this time, there is no evidence of a bullet. the offending kite operator then maneuvered his kite out of sight and distance of the van.

 

das wat i was thinking

Those are the new reusable bullets.

Yeah, but don't you have to get a new magazine every time you re-use?  Because the magazines can only be used once?