Good videos that EVERYONE can learn from Police included

Edit:

I have to apologize.
Got on my nerve there for a minute.

Great Vids, however I just don't see how it shows CCW is a bad thing. Just shows CCW holders need to train hard to be effective.
If anything, at the least, they had a chance to do something besides being slaughtered like sheep.

For what it's worth that video was biased.

1) People who never CCW'd before v. an NRA instructor "gunman"
2) The "gunman" KNEW who was carrying.
3) The CCW person ALWAYS sat in the same chair, in the same location: front & center.

In real life, that would never happen.

I understand you hate CCW for anyone but yourself and LEO but you aren't going to change anyone's minds here nor will you find someone to agree with you.  Go somewhere else where people do agree with you.  Go be with your kind.

Merry Christmas!

Old news, from a bias "news" channel.  You mean to say, untrained college kids can't win in a gunfight against trained NRA instructors in an ambush situation when the shooters already have them singled out?  When they're sitting front and center in the middle of class, wearing baIggy clothes that snags on their holester?  In related news, the sky is also blue, and the grass is also green, and CCW is coming to Hawaii wether you like it or not. 

You keep talking about being against concealed carry, but you haven't commented on open carry. I assume your stance is the same? Even though "bear" in the 2nd amendment clearly means "to carry?" Yet in Hawaii, we don't have a provision to carry ANYTHING to defend ourselves.

The video (and yourself) acknowledges that bad things can happen even when the police are carrying. So what's your solution? NO good guys can carry? Just the criminals? Because even with a complete ban, the criminals would still have guns. And even if they didn't, people just revert to using other weapons. History shows us this: before there were guns, they used rocks and sticks, then swords and longbows. As Heavies previously pointed out, people are trusted with countless other objects (which generally cause more injuries and deaths than guns; e.g., cars) daily, yet you don't seem too worried about regulating that stuff. Or what about cigarettes? They kill WAAAAY more people than guns every day in this country, yet I don't see you clamoring for more government regulation or a ban on tobacco products. While I believe that I understand the root of your concern about guns, your argument is nonsensical because you are ignoring other issues that cause far more death and misery with less "return on investment" in lieu of something that has been PROVEN to save lives and kills FAR fewer lives per year.

In regards to this specific video:

1) The CCW holder saved lives. Period. Perhaps not their own, but indeed others. Even with the cards stacked against them (as Jason previously pointed out). Furthermore, active shooters almost always take their own life or are killed when they are confronted. That is a FACT. (1)
2) While people can flee like they did in this clip, the recent video of the shooting in Florida showed that people can also FREEZE when they are attacked. If that had happened in this scenario, and the CCW holder did not take action, how many people would have died before the police were finally able to arrive? I have no problem with police, however the FACT is that they can't teleport, they have to drive through traffic. That takes time. Time equals dead bodies. (2)

- Alex


References:
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims (Not all encompassing, but paints a great picture.)
(2) http://www.keithsuddes.com/Ch%2016%20Active%20Killer%20Response%20Theory.pdf

Guys, I used serve as an assistant CCW instructor in Arizona.  We never discouraged folks, but we were fortunate enough to have our local LEO who helped out with the class.  Before we started the class we broke the class down into different categories and identified the individuals with or with out defensive tactics training.  We used a similar scenario with simunitions and it really opened everyones eyes on the first day.  The videos presented by Defend Hawaii reminded me of that.  The information definitely has an agenda, but most of the things they demoed is true to a certain point, or could be interpreted in a different way based on an individuals perception.   I am not an expert by no means so please take what I say with a grain of salt.  If you are offended, it will not bother me because I can not make everyone happy.  Besides, I enjoy being in Hawaii in comparison to serving in the sandbox for another 12 months.

BLUF:  I just hope folks realize that training and practice are one of the pivotal cornerstone of being a responsible CCW holder.  Muscle memory, action during a crisis, and manipulating the "adrenaline cocktail" take time and dedication.  If the CCW law is passed in Hawaii, I just hope there will be qualified instructors to provided responsible CCW holders with training and provide expert testimony if the victim is ever involved in a dynamic critical incident (sorry, just came back from one of Rob Pincus's classes and they used the term "dynamic critical incident to define an ambush).  I have personally made the decision to spend a considerable amount of money over the last 10 years to train and practice. Even though Hawaii is still quite restrictive to civilians practicing on the public range, I am fortunate enough  travel to the mainland to train (Tiger Valley, ICE, Suarez International, and ITI for this year alone), and visit former students when I am not deployed.  Be careful of who you train with because, I have known CCW instructors who have impressive resumes, but fail to support their students if they are involved in a shooting.  It's a long term investment if you choose to live the lifestyle, so choose your certifications and instructors carefully.  You know having too much training can also be used against you so finding the right balance is also key.  It's all about perception IMHO.  In addition, I also have to keep up with the laws of where I hold a CCW license, because there are annual updates to the law itself.  I am not saying this to discourage anyone, but if you intend to carry, take training from qualified schools, individuals, and do your best to maintain your proficiency.

One more thing, CCW in Hawaii would be an interesting environment for CCW.  There are interesting ways to carry depending on the weather.  Folks that have lived on the mainland might understand what I mean.  It's not too tough to conceal and handgun if you are wearing slack and jacket if the weather is cooperating with you.  Hawaii is a bit unique.  I often wonder if the folks who carry fanny packs are LEO's or Federal Officers IMHO.  A CCW holder might stand out from the rest of crowd which could make him/her the target based on the way they dress.  Just food for thought.  Jimmy joe wearing 5.11 might be a dead give away for an off duty peace officer, PMC, civilian defensive hobbyist which could be good or bad depending on the situation.  If you intend to live the CCW lifestyle you have to be willing to make changes in your life and that should be up to the individual IMHO. Some might say this is a hassle, but you have to stay proficient and keep it to yourselves current on CCW affairs pertaining to your state.  It's almost like you have to do double the work of the criminals who carry illegally.  That's life and it sucks.  It is what it is folks.

This is my last post here and I am quite irritated at what is going on at this site IMHO.  Unfortunately like most military personal, I will only be here for a couple of years and will leave soon.  My apologies if I have offended anyone who is permanently stationed here.   However, I enjoy shooting at the MPPL matches, where I am allowed to train at certain point.  I always try to imagine being under duress and working the problem even though the starting positions are the same  and problem sets go way past the number 4.  This can be tough since they mostly do the "run and gun" game where gun handling skills reign supreme and there is not much play for defensive shooting.  (Fire, forget , and never access.  Next target!)  Well, we just have to make the best of the given situation.  It could be like California.  My scores suck, really suck so do not be surprised.  I tend to loose focus after shooting the 4th target on any stage.  My thing is if I am shooting more than one target with a hand gun I better being fighting my way towards a long gun, looking for cover, or getting the hell out there to get more support. 

Just my two cents, sooooooo have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Good luck with promoting 2A in Hawaii and if it passes............please oh please get some training.  Young or old,  there is no excuse for skills that you learned 15 years ago or yesterday.  It's obsolete already. So stay proficient, situationally aware, and open to any point of view that is out there when it comes to CCW in your carry state.  It's also a responsibility for you, your family , and the other people who are around you when you decided to do a "presentation" in defense of your life.

Much respect to all of good people out there.

SK

PS:  To the administrator - Please remove me from the rolls of this forum.  I thank you for allowing me to post!  Thank you again!

LIES!!! lol, in the bright side, the videos do make some valid points and remind us what we're up against when it comes to defending carry rights.

Edit:

I have to apologize.
Got on my nerve there for a minute.

Great Vids, however I just don't see how it shows CCW is a bad thing. Just shows CCW holders need to train hard to be effective.
If anything, at the least, they had a chance to do something besides being slaughtered like sheep.

Apology accepted!!!

Things to remember -- while Defend is trying to promote an Anti- concealed carry brady campaign agenda, it's important to realize that training does improve your chances of survival.  This is in regards to anything "defensive", be it martial arts, athletics (Running away), speaking (conditioning yourself to yell the proper words).  I don't know a single gun owner, instructor, or proponent of concealed carry or open carry, who would say you should avoid training -- not one.

Now about the video - not every criminal is a training  and conditioned expert on firearms, the randomness of that encounter is kind of blah, when real bullets are involved (if you don't freeze) you usually move out of the way and take cover (which is the most important aspect, you can't fight back if your not covered, concealed, or alive).   The video provides great insight to why training is important. However, if you think that some of us can't wait to train at this level (we have many issues with a gun range) then you would be wrong.  Some of us do train, have trained, and will continue to train.

very few active shooter have gone into that fast, but it does happen. If someone was to come into the room, draw, and begin to open fire.. no firearm is going to stop that initial shot.

I still don't see the point of your title, and thus, it will be changed.

Ok Mr funtimes 2A or whatever your name is i see how u all roll on this site. The vids and title were taken straight from you tube. U all are living n a dream world if u think that packing is all it takes.  Some of u think that the 2 hours of range time and 4 hours of class study required to obtain a safety course certification is all u need. 

I would love tO attend One of your  2A meetings to hear what u all have to say.

Goodnight!!

Ok Mr funtimes 2A or whatever your name is i see how u all roll on this site. The vids and title were taken straight from you tube. U all are living n a dream world if u think that packing is all it takes.  Some of u think that the 2 hours of range time and 4 hours of class study required to obtain a safety course certification is all u need. 

I would love tO attend One of your  2A meetings to hear what u all have to say.

Goodnight!!

You really should learn to read.

The vids and title were taken straight from you tube.

We all know that Wrestling is real and Football is fake, right?  YOUTUBE has tons of content, most of is BS for fun.

As far as making a meeting...everyone is welcome and always has been. Given your stance on 2a, I  simply suggest you have your agenda in order to present to the group if you decide to show up.

Please don't waste our time, we won't waste yours.

Mahalo

I've changed the title back to the original because it matches the youtube titles.

Let me ask you this, how much training do YOU feel should be required for concealed carry permit holders?

I've changed the title back to the original because it matches the youtube titles.

Let me ask you this, how much training do YOU feel should be required for concealed carry permit holders?

I feel that CCW applicants must pass a written and live fire course taught by HPD.  CCW applicants must learn Hawaii's use of force policy.  They like police Officers MUST be held to a higher degree of responsibility.  Classes must be taught on proper ccw attire.  We live in hawaii and most of the time we wear t shirt and shorts.  we are not like the mainland.  no bulky coats to cover up the guns. 

The live fire portion would be shooting at stationary targets as well as dynamic simunition exercises such as the video.

Thank You..

If DH went to a meeting i imagine him googling furiously to find anti-gun sites and youtube videos because he cant come up with any valid (not emotiinal)responses himself. He might even bring his hpd application (because we all know simply filling out an hpd app means you are better and more qualified then anyone else on the constitution, gun right, etc.)

Matter of fact even though me or dh wont get the hpd job (id turn the offer down)  i might just fill out an app too so i can gain all the wisdom and power he did from filling out his.

Quote from: 2aHawaii on December 27, 2010, 07:46:21 AM

I've changed the title back to the original because it matches the youtube titles.

Let me ask you this, how much training do YOU feel should be required for concealed carry permit holders?

I feel that CCW applicants must pass a written and live fire course taught by HPD.  CCW applicants must learn Hawaii's use of force policy.  They like police Officers MUST be held to a higher degree of responsibility.  Classes must be taught on proper ccw attire.  We live in hawaii and most of the time we wear t shirt and shorts.  we are not like the mainland.  no bulky coats to cover up the guns. 

The live fire portion would be shooting at stationary targets as well as dynamic simunition exercises such as the video.

Thank You..

Sounds like youre saying the pd needs to step up and get it together on their side. I agree. Im glad you see its the pd and not us pro 2a guys that are the problem

If DH went to a meeting i imagine him googling furiously to find anti-gun sites and youtube videos because he cant come up with any valid (not emotiinal)responses himself. He might even bring his hpd application (because we all know simply filling out an hpd app means you are better and more qualified then anyone else on the constitution, gun right, etc.)

Matter of fact even though me or dh wont get the hpd job (id turn the offer down)  i might just fill out an app too so i can gain all the wisdom and power he did from filling out his.

If DH went to a 2A meeting that would be one more then your sorry butt

Quote from: Defend Hawaii on December 27, 2010, 07:58:29 AM

Quote from: 2aHawaii on December 27, 2010, 07:46:21 AM

I've changed the title back to the original because it matches the youtube titles.

Let me ask you this, how much training do YOU feel should be required for concealed carry permit holders?

I feel that CCW applicants must pass a written and live fire course taught by HPD.  CCW applicants must learn Hawaii's use of force policy.  They like police Officers MUST be held to a higher degree of responsibility.  Classes must be taught on proper ccw attire.  We live in hawaii and most of the time we wear t shirt and shorts.  we are not like the mainland.  no bulky coats to cover up the guns. 

The live fire portion would be shooting at stationary targets as well as dynamic simunition exercises such as the video.

Thank You..

Sounds like youre saying the pd needs to step up and get it together on their side. I agree. Im glad you see its the pd and not us pro 2a guys that are the problem

THATS IF CCW IS EVER GRANTED!!!!!!  Please read the whole post before you reply.  You just looking silly....

Are police officers held to a higher degree of responsibility?

As for training, how many hours would you say is enough training?

If you read through this site you will find out that there have already been ccw permits granted in the state of hawaii