If you read through this site you will find out that there have already been ccw permits granted in the state of hawaii

I am well aware of that Sir.  If you are EVER granted a CCW Permit please train.  Train practice and use good common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HPD, over 30 years ago required almost the SAME training for CCW permittee as Regular commissioned HPD officers.

The Written test was also very close/same to what HPD officers had to know.....

That was the first, last and Only time I was able to view their "standards" for CCW permittees when the entire "standards" were
availible from the City Clerk's Office.  I should have made a copy of the entire file......

As I recall, all such stuff is/was supposed to be availible to all applicants according to City Rules/Laws.

HPD removed it all.  I checked thru contacts in the Mayor's Office and "friendly" gun owning City Council Person.
No way will HPD "release" what "should  be"  Public Information.

IF everything is still the same, CCW permittees would/should qualify as Reserve Police Officers as far as the shooting part is concerned.

Personally, I have no agruements with either written or practical tests.  Permittees would be held to the Same High Standards as regular LEO.

HPD, over 30 years ago required almost the SAME training for CCW permittee as Regular commissioned HPD officers.

The Written test was also very close/same to what HPD officers had to know.....

That was the first, last and Only time I was able to view their "standards" for CCW permittees when the entire "standards" were
availible from the City Clerk's Office.  I should have made a copy of the entire file......

As I recall, all such stuff is/was supposed to be availible to all applicants according to City Rules/Laws.

HPD removed it all.  I checked thru contacts in the Mayor's Office and "friendly" gun owning City Council Person.
No way will HPD "release" what "should  be"  Public Information.

IF everything is still the same, CCW permittees would/should qualify as Reserve Police Officers as far as the shooting part is concerned.

Personally, I have no agruements with either written or practical tests.  Permittees would be held to the Same High Standards as regular LEO.

It's impossible to try and hold people to standards set for police officers. We don't have the same entry requirements, and there are many variables.  OG,  in your older age, I can imagine you can't get down and dirty like you could in your twenties -- there may be some people who CANT get down at all.   What about handicap people?  Who pays for the classes, ammunition, instructors, the classes availabilities, ranges etc.

While I would *LOVE* to see people brought to this standard, it's simply not reasonable enough for execution. 

Quote from: pj_benn on December 27, 2010, 08:49:38 AM

If you read through this site you will find out that there have already been ccw permits granted in the state of hawaii

I am well aware of that Sir. 

Right. You just looking silly.

Funtimes,

The information I posted was what HPD required at the time I was able to look at the documentation.
Which was over 30 years ago.  HPD has since removed the Entire file from public viewing.

Not what I want.

As it is Now, we firearms owner are at a Higher standard.  We are cleared by FBI, HPD and the medical profession.

As a NRA instructor with LIFE and a Disabled person, I am very much aware the HPD's requirements At that time may be unfair to
persons with disabilities.   As an instructor, I have taught disabled persons how to shoot and worked with them on what kind of firearm
works best for that individual.

When CCW comes to Hawaii, if HPD does not change it's requirements(as I saw them then) I can foresee a lawsuit , by a particular disabled
attorney who works "pro bono",  against HPD for violating the Federal Persons with Disabilities Act.
And he will Win too, just as he has won against many businesses(large and small) here in Hawaii.

Edit:  As in all other states with CCW, the costs of the training etc are the responsibility of the permittee.  I am Not aware of any jurisdiction that will cover the
cost of CCW classes/training of the permittee on a state wide basis.  There have been and may be classes conducted by local area LE organizations/groups.
But, Not on a State wide basis.

If anyone is aware of any state offering both class and shooting instruction on a State Wide basis, please let me know.

It's impossible to try and hold people to standards set for police officers. We don't have the same entry requirements, and there are many variables.  OG,  in your older age, I can imagine you can't get down and dirty like you could in your twenties -- there may be some people who CANT get down at all.   What about handicap people?  Who pays for the classes, ammunition, instructors, the classes availabilities, ranges etc.

While I would *LOVE* to see people brought to this standard, it's simply not reasonable enough for execution.

When CCW comes to Hawaii, if HPD does not change it's requirements(as I   saw them then) I can foresee a lawsuit , by a particular disabled
attorney who works "pro bono",  against HPD for violating the Federal Persons with Disabilities Act.
And he will Win too, just as he has won against many businesses(large and small) here in Hawaii.

I think I'd have to agree here.

 I don't think it to be right or fair to disqualify a person because they are not physically able to accomplish police training.  Everyone must have the right to defend themselves against attackers.
They may not have the best chances of success (as would a person able to train often), but they will be able to have a chance, as opposed to no chance at all.

I feel that CCW applicants must pass a written and live fire course taught by HPD.  CCW applicants must learn Hawaii's use of force policy.  They like police Officers MUST be held to a higher degree of responsibility.  Classes must be taught on proper ccw attire.  We live in hawaii and most of the time we wear t shirt and shorts.  we are not like the mainland.  no bulky coats to cover up the guns. 

The live fire portion would be shooting at stationary targets as well as dynamic simunition exercises such as the video.

Thank You..

I agree completely.  Something as potent as CCW should come with a training requirement, or proof of prior training (i.e. military or police service).  I feel the majority of us advocating CCW would have no problem taking and passing said training course, and if that's what it takes that's what it takes. The State needs to provide a viable option to CCW rather than outright denying every application.

Quote from: Old Guy on December 27, 2010, 09:20:28 AM

HPD, over 30 years ago required almost the SAME training for CCW permittee as Regular commissioned HPD officers.

The Written test was also very close/same to what HPD officers had to know.....

That was the first, last and Only time I was able to view their "standards" for CCW permittees when the entire "standards" were
availible from the City Clerk's Office.  I should have made a copy of the entire file......

As I recall, all such stuff is/was supposed to be availible to all applicants according to City Rules/Laws.

HPD removed it all.  I checked thru contacts in the Mayor's Office and "friendly" gun owning City Council Person.
No way will HPD "release" what "should  be"  Public Information.

IF everything is still the same, CCW permittees would/should qualify as Reserve Police Officers as far as the shooting part is concerned.

Personally, I have no agruements with either written or practical tests.  Permittees would be held to the Same High Standards as regular LEO.

It's impossible to try and hold people to standards set for police officers. We don't have the same entry requirements, and there are many variables.  OG,  in your older age, I can imagine you can't get down and dirty like you could in your twenties -- there may be some people who CANT get down at all.   What about handicap people?  Who pays for the classes, ammunition, instructors, the classes availabilities, ranges etc.

While I would *LOVE* to see people brought to this standard, it's simply not reasonable enough for execution.

Sounds like you (Funtime/2A) want CCW without putting in the training, studying and work. 

I am glad most of you would DEDICATE yourself to this method of training if CCW in Hawaii ever happens. 

With this strict training and teaching CCW might just work.  That is why i say CCW is a PRIVLEDGE not your RIGHT.   

The more I research CCW the more I realize that alot of CCW holders know infact the bare basics.   

I encourage all of you who are SERIOIUS and DEDICATED to CCW in Hawaii to put in the work at the range and classroom. 
Learn that with the right to bear arms also comes great responsibility. 

Good Luck,

Defend Hawaii

Sounds like you (Funtime/2A) want CCW without putting in the training, studying and work. 

I am glad most of you would DEDICATE yourself to this method of training if CCW in Hawaii ever happens. 

With this strict training and teaching CCW might just work.  That is why i say CCW is a PRIVLEDGE not your RIGHT.   

The more I research CCW the more I realize that alot of CCW holders know infact the bare basics.   

I encourage all of you who are SERIOIUS and DEDICATED to CCW in Hawaii to put in the work at the range and classroom. 
Learn that with the right to bear arms also comes great responsibility. 

Good Luck,

Defend Hawaii

I'd say whether carrying is a RIGHT is up in the air right now especially with the latest decision mentioning the "fundamental right to keep and bare arms." I think you are getting caught up in whether or not YOU consider it a right or a privilege. Fortunately for all of us, it isn't up to you to decide.

Defend Hawaii,

      First, you completely ignored my post on the first page. I would be interested to hear your take on my points outlined there.

With this strict training and teaching CCW might just work. 

You're ignoring the FACT that is DOES work. How's this for another fact, around 200,000 (that would be two-hundred THOUSAND) women use a firearm to protect themselves from a sexual assault EACH YEAR. (1)

That is why i say CCW is a PRIVLEDGE not your RIGHT.   

Technically, you're right; CCW is a privilege...as long as The People are able to bear arms openly...which we cannot do in Hawaii. We have no option at all to bear arms; therefore, our RIGHT is being violated.

The more I research CCW the more I realize that alot of CCW holders know infact the bare basics.   

Please enlighten us of your research...like with DATA. Not opinions. Also, a wise general conducts intelligence gathering about his enemy. In this case, that means reading literature from the other side. Myself and many others do this on a daily basis. What we find, REPEATEDLY, is that groups such as the Brady Campaign are forced to manipulate the numbers or outright lie in an attempt to prove their points. www.Gunfacts.info can provide you with countless examples of this...it is not hyperbole, but fact.

If DH went to a 2A meeting that would be one more then your sorry butt

I truly hope that you do decide to come to the next HCCW meeting in January. The date, time, and location will be posted on this forum, and I will personally PM you with the information, so ignorance will not be an excuse. I think that you might be surprised by what you find. Regarding pistol skills, you are more than welcome to come out to the first MPPL pistol match of the year at Koko Head Shooting Complex. If you place higher than me, I'll buy you a bear and have a picture taken of me on my knees bowing down to you while you drink it...then I'll post the picture as my Facebook profile page for a month for everyone to see. If you lose, you have to promise to download and read the free GunFacts.info e-book. Nothing like some friendly competition.

- Alex

References:
(1) http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm

Sounds like you (Funtime/2A) want CCW without putting in the training, studying and work. 

Actually, Chris just completed the class to become an NRA Pistol Instructor and can make a person's head spin with the amount of knowledge he has regarding the use of deadly force in self-defense situations-he studies this stuff harder than anyone I've ever met. His point was that he does not want to see people unable to implement their right to keep and bear arms due to logistical, physical, or financial burden.

- Alex

Defend Hawaii,

      First, you completely ignored my post on the first page. I would be interested to hear your take on my points outlined there.

Quote from: Defend Hawaii on December 27, 2010, 12:55:15 PM

With this strict training and teaching CCW might just work. 

You're ignoring the FACT that is DOES work. How's this for another fact, around 200,000 (that would be two-hundred THOUSAND) women use a firearm to protect themselves from a sexual assault EACH YEAR. (1)

Quote from: Defend Hawaii on December 27, 2010, 12:55:15 PM

That is why i say CCW is a PRIVLEDGE not your RIGHT.   

Technically, you're right; CCW is a privilege...as long as The People are able to bear arms openly...which we cannot do in Hawaii. We have no option at all to bear arms; therefore, our RIGHT is being violated.

Quote from: Defend Hawaii on December 27, 2010, 12:55:15 PM

The more I research CCW the more I realize that alot of CCW holders know infact the bare basics.   

Please enlighten us of your research...like with DATA. Not opinions. Also, a wise general conducts intelligence gathering about his enemy. In this case, that means reading literature from the other side. Myself and many others do this on a daily basis. What we find, REPEATEDLY, is that groups such as the Brady Campaign are forced to manipulate the numbers or outright lie in an attempt to prove their points. www.Gunfacts.info can provide you with countless examples of this...it is not hyperbole, but fact.

Quote from: Defend Hawaii on December 27, 2010, 12:55:15 PM

If DH went to a 2A meeting that would be one more then your sorry butt

I truly hope that you do decide to come to the next HCCW meeting in January. The date, time, and location will be posted on this forum, and I will personally PM you with the information, so ignorance will not be an excuse. I think that you might be surprised by what you find. Regarding pistol skills, you are more than welcome to come out to the first MPPL pistol match of the year at Koko Head Shooting Complex. If you place higher than me, I'll buy you a bear and have a picture taken of me on my knees bowing down to you while you drink it...then I'll post the picture as my Facebook profile page for a month for everyone to see. If you lose, you have to promise to download and read the free GunFacts.info e-book. Nothing like some friendly competition.

- Alex

References:
(1) http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm

Alex, I do not drink beer, however i will read the Gunfacts info ebook.  I am really trying to defend Hawaii against all evils not just with guns but with all the other BS trying to hurt OUR beloved home Hawaii. 

Alex, I do not drink beer, however i will read the Gunfacts info ebook.  I am really trying to defend Hawaii against all evils not just with guns but with all the other BS trying to hurt OUR beloved home Hawaii.

Dear Sir,
Might I suggest you start with actual evils like criminals and not Constitutional right issues? Example: Crack. Larceny. Overstepping. Property theft. Eating cold pizza.    etc.

When you read the gunfacts, make sure you also double check the source when it is available online.  I am sincere when I say this; I hope we can start talking with facts rather than starting any counter arguments with "I feel" or "I think". 

Just as a note Defend -- People are much more receptive and willing to discuss with you when you speak somewhat rationally, and leave out all that "KEEP HAWAII HAWAII, NO HAOLE" crap out of it (like you have managed in your most recent 10 posts or so  ).  Please don't revert back to that senseless drama you were spouting off before -- please keep it real and rational, like you currently are.

If you think that I have said skip on training, your wrong.  There is a difference between what people *should* have to be effective, responsible, and capable of employing their firearms for self-defense, and what is *required* to exercise a fundamental constitutional right (See Heller v DC, McDonald v. City of Chicago).

Police have a physical screening process; there are many people who are unable to pass that.  Those people, who are some how unable to pass physically, can't be denied their right to self-defense because of some arbitrary training.  HPD also teaches nothing to anyone except HPD; which all boils down to liability. We actually can't really find any place like they have in those videos to train, because of zoning restrictions and the cities requirements.

I would love to have a "kill house" type place, where you could practice some stuff like this.

There is a difference between what people *should* have to be effective, responsible, and capable of employing their firearms for self-defense, and what is *required* to exercise a fundamental constitutional right (See Heller v DC, McDonald v. City of Chicago).

This is how I believe it should be. I wouldn't push for any required training for CCW, but I would push for moderate to severe punishment for irresponsible carriers who have little to no range time, no training courses, etc, and are wreckless in self-defense. The responsibility needs to be self-generated. If not, any requirements just become one more piece of paper to forget about.

]



Funtimes/2A/chris/etc/etc:

Keep Hawaii Hawaii means really that.  Keep it Hawaii.  For your info, Sir i have many "mainland friends" who respect the islands and treat it as thier own.  I have Mainland Friends who are more local than some of the locals. 

It was u and your cronies who assumed i was talking about "Da Hauole's" 

I never come on this website to bash da mainlanders. i came on it to Defend Hawaii from CCW.

Here is an idea for CCW Permits.

Let the public vote on it. 

Eh really you have a good week.

Just as a note Defend -- People are much more receptive and willing to discuss with you when you speak somewhat rationally, and leave out all that "KEEP HAWAII HAWAII, NO HAOLE" crap out of it (like you have managed in your most recent 10 posts or so  ).  Please don't revert back to that senseless drama you were spouting off before -- please keep it real and rational, like you currently are.

If you think that I have said skip on training, your wrong.  There is a difference between what people *should* have to be effective, responsible, and capable of employing their firearms for self-defense, and what is *required* to exercise a fundamental constitutional right (See Heller v DC, McDonald v. City of Chicago).

Police have a physical screening process; there are many people who are unable to pass that.  Those people, who are some how unable to pass physically, can't be denied their right to self-defense because of some arbitrary training.  HPD also teaches nothing to anyone except HPD; which all boils down to liability. We actually can't really find any place like they have in those videos to train, because of zoning restrictions and the cities requirements.

I would love to have a "kill house" type place, where you could practice some stuff like this.

KILL HOUSE<

I do not know if you ever heard of Power Edge on Waialae Ave.  It is actually an Airsoft Shop.  Well Poweredge does rent out its course to the public.  There is a fee,  the guns are replica, but a "killhouse" non the less.   Airsoft is used by many LEO'S and Millitary as a form of training. 

If intrested in a 2A Hawaii Airsoft event contact Peter at Power Edge. 

It was u and your cronies who assumed i was talking about "Da Hauole's" 

Clearly someone went back and edited their original posts-- we all saw what you wrote earlier.  I guess you got tired of us quoting your many contradictions? 

Quote from: Defend Hawaii on December 28, 2010, 08:42:21 AM

It was u and your cronies who assumed i was talking about "Da Hauole's" 

Clearly someone went back and edited their original posts-- we all saw what you wrote earlier.  I guess you got tired of us quoting your many contradictions?

I never delete ANYTHING!!!!   I got nothing to HIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let the public vote on it. 

This is where I have a problem and people (not specifically you DH) get emotional about it and thus willingly allow our freedoms to erode. This isn't a democracy: A Government entity that is ruled by majority. It's a Republic: A Government entity that adheres to a charter. Unfortunately, it's run as a Dmcrcy even where the Rblc restricts it (such as our issue) because people allow it and emotions run rampant and are wielded as political weapons. You can't force slaves to vote on being free if they've been trained to embrace being a slave.

My point is, as feel-good and pat-eachother-on-the-back a vote would be, a protected right is not something you vote on.