2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mr. Farknocker on October 24, 2011, 03:06:13 PM
-
The other day, I was at the pistol silhouette range when a guy with a .45 ACP pistol walked up next to me, opened up his ammo box, loaded his magazine with ammo and stuffed it into his firearm when all of a sudden, a gust of wind blew his shop towel to the ground in back of me and he lunged after it with the pistol still in his hand. They guy on the other side of me ducked for cover and nearly shat his pants while blurting out an expletive. I was too busy pointing my gun at someone else's head to notice what Yosmite Sam next to was doing to recognize the danger.
All this got me thinking about whether Hawaii's laws are adequate when it comes to gun safety training. I know that there are staunch Second Amendment advocates who are against imposing any laws (never mind additional requirements!) when it comes to acquiring firearms, but my own lack of experience and several incidents, including the one described above, got me thinking about the question of whether more should be required. Hawaii currently requires a total of 6-hours of firearm training that covers everything from acquiring a firearm, safe gun handling, ammunition and fundamentals of pistol shooting. The "text book" stuff is covered in a span of 4 hours mingled with the instructors war stories. IMO, that' seems hardly enough to cover something as serious as the handling of a handgun (compare that with what the law requires to obtain a drivers license!). Moreover, current law doesn't require anyone to take any firearm safety training course in order to handle and fire a firearm; it only requires it to acquire a firearm.
What say you?
-
I am thinking that I cannot wait to leave this place in the summer.
-
The problem with needing more training is that it becomes a slippery slope. How much training IS really enough? I know lots of military police (from all branches except for the USMC) who even after going through a police academy are still clueless when it comes to weapon handling and manipulation. I would assume that the same can be said for the civilian LE side of the house, although I don't know any specific stories.
Furthermore, are we just talking about weapon-handling training? What about the nuiances of Use/Escalation of Force, Deadly Force, and the possible repercusions of using a firearm for lawful self-defense? That, in and of itself could take 1 day-or more. Where does it end? What amount of training in all of the various disciplines would make EVERYONE happy?
Lastly, I would like to point out that you compared a PRIVILEGE (driving) with a RIGHT (keep and bear arms). And even though the PRIVILEGE is far more dangerous statistically speaking, the ability to exercise the RIGHT is constantly questioned. Furthermore, compare the statistics of states that require driver's education compared to those which do not...I think you might be surprised to find out that there isn't a signficant difference in safety on the road.
- Alex
-
i'm not sure but from what i've seen my pistol qual is good enough for HPD for now.
-
OP:
Any requirement for training is an infringement of the right, and is therefore literally unconstitutional. Saying that something like training is not a "significant burden" on the right is all the rage in courts these days, but where does the Constitution say that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be significantly burdened? It doesn't, and although I'm not a Constitutional scholar, I don't think one needs to be. Requiring training, which imposes a de facto waiting period while you wait for your scheduled class, is an infringement. With regard to your range incident, I'll wager that the offending party didn't leave the range with the impression that his conduct was acceptable, did he? I applaud people for going out and getting training, but it should not be a requirement to exercise a right. The gun-owners of America are an extremely responsible, self-regulating bunch of people. Mandatory training does little to no good in improving that.
-
I should have qualified the poll by saying that the question posed should exclude any consideration over the 14 day waiting period for handguns and the 3+ trips you have to make between HPD and the dealer. I think 14 days seems excessive at first blush but considering the length of time it may take to perform a background check and the person's medical/mental history, 14 days may not seem so outrageous.
-
OP:
With regard to your range incident, I'll wager that the offending party didn't leave the range with the impression that his conduct was acceptable, did he?
I honestly don't think the offending party saw the reaction of the neighbor on the other side of me nor realized what he had done.
-
OP:
With regard to your range incident, I'll wager that the offending party didn't leave the range with the impression that his conduct was acceptable, did he?
I honestly don't think the offending party saw the reaction of the neighbor on the other side of me nor realized what he had done.
I would encourage you to speak your mind on that sort of thing, it's a good opportunity for training. But in any case, my vote would have been the same if you had qualified the poll to exclude waiting periods. No mandated training will ever be constitutional.
-
I voted for the hamburger :geekdanc:
-
OP:
With regard to your range incident, I'll wager that the offending party didn't leave the range with the impression that his conduct was acceptable, did he?
I honestly don't think the offending party saw the reaction of the neighbor on the other side of me nor realized what he had done.
I would encourage you to speak your mind on that sort of thing, it's a good opportunity for training. But in any case, my vote would have been the same if you had qualified the poll to exclude waiting periods. No mandated training will ever be constitutional.
+1. It is EVERY shooter's responsibility to call out others for a violation of the 4 firearm safety rules. Just because the RSO doesn't see something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Yes, the offender will probably think that you're a dick for calling him out and may even smart off to you, but I can almost guarantee you that he'll think about it later on after he gets home and cools off. Even in an informal setting, the range is a training environment and it should be treated as such.
- Alex
-
I should have qualified the poll by saying that the question posed should exclude any consideration over the 14 day waiting period for handguns and the 3+ trips you have to make between HPD and the dealer. I think 14 days seems excessive at first blush but considering the length of time it may take to perform a background check and the person's medical/mental history, 14 days may not seem so outrageous.
So every other state in the US is doing things wrong? The NCIC background check takes LITERALLY 30 seconds over the phone. And, as we saw in the case of Jared Loughner, if institutions aren't reporting Mental Illness, then no reasonable amount of background check is going to dig that stuff up...especially with HIPAA.
Furthermore, if I already own a gun, what does the state gain (in the way of public safety) by making me wait another 14 days when I buy another? If someone was going to commit a crime, they would just do it with a gun they already owned or acquired illegally; they wouldn't go through the entire Permit to Acquire/Registration process.
EDIT TO ADD: Do yourself a favor, spend some time researching the 4 states that offer Constitutional Carry - I haven't seen any reports of blood on the streets...despite the anti-2a crowd's best efforts to frighten the sheeple. As Cougar stated, gun owners are, as a whole, an extremely responsible crowd. There will always be bad apples, but in my experience, no amount of training is going to help them.
- Alex
-
I should have qualified the poll by saying that the question posed should exclude any consideration over the 14 day waiting period for handguns and the 3+ trips you have to make between HPD and the dealer. I think 14 days seems excessive at first blush but considering the length of time it may take to perform a background check and the person's medical/mental history, 14 days may not seem so outrageous.
So every other state in the US is doing things wrong? The NCIC background check takes LITERALLY 30 seconds over the phone. And, as we saw in the case of Jared Loughner, if institutions aren't reporting Mental Illness, then no reasonable amount of background check is going to dig that stuff up...especially with HIPAA.
Furthermore, if I already own a gun, what does the state gain (in the way of public safety) by making me wait another 14 days when I buy another? If someone was going to commit a crime, they would just do it with a gun they already owned or acquired illegally; they wouldn't go through the entire Permit to Acquire/Registration process.
EDIT TO ADD: Do yourself a favor, spend some time researching the 4 states that offer Constitutional Carry - I haven't seen any reports of blood on the streets...despite the anti-2a crowd's best efforts to frighten the sheeple. As Cougar stated, gun owners are, as a whole, an extremely responsible crowd. There will always be bad apples, but in my experience, no amount of training is going to help them.
- Alex
In my opinion I have never seen the logic of making someone who owns numerous handguns legally wait an additional two weeks for every new gun.
-
I should have qualified the poll by saying that the question posed should exclude any consideration over the 14 day waiting period for handguns and the 3+ trips you have to make between HPD and the dealer. I think 14 days seems excessive at first blush but considering the length of time it may take to perform a background check and the person's medical/mental history, 14 days may not seem so outrageous.
So every other state in the US is doing things wrong? The NCIC background check takes LITERALLY 30 seconds over the phone. And, as we saw in the case of Jared Loughner, if institutions aren't reporting Mental Illness, then no reasonable amount of background check is going to dig that stuff up...especially with HIPAA.
Furthermore, if I already own a gun, what does the state gain (in the way of public safety) by making me wait another 14 days when I buy another? If someone was going to commit a crime, they would just do it with a gun they already owned or acquired illegally; they wouldn't go through the entire Permit to Acquire/Registration process.
EDIT TO ADD: Do yourself a favor, spend some time researching the 4 states that offer Constitutional Carry - I haven't seen any reports of blood on the streets...despite the anti-2a crowd's best efforts to frighten the sheeple. As Cougar stated, gun owners are, as a whole, an extremely responsible crowd. There will always be bad apples, but in my experience, no amount of training is going to help them.
- Alex
In my opinion I have never seen the logic of making someone who owns numerous handguns legally wait an additional two weeks for every new gun.
This, because If I need a firearm right now to commit a crime, AND I HAVE ONE ALREADY, I am going to go spend money and buy another.
Stupid requirement and a complete waste of taxpayers money.
-
I should have qualified the poll by saying that the question posed should exclude any consideration over the 14 day waiting period for handguns and the 3+ trips you have to make between HPD and the dealer. I think 14 days seems excessive at first blush but considering the length of time it may take to perform a background check and the person's medical/mental history, 14 days may not seem so outrageous.
So every other state in the US is doing things wrong? The NCIC background check takes LITERALLY 30 seconds over the phone. And, as we saw in the case of Jared Loughner, if institutions aren't reporting Mental Illness, then no reasonable amount of background check is going to dig that stuff up...especially with HIPAA.
Furthermore, if I already own a gun, what does the state gain (in the way of public safety) by making me wait another 14 days when I buy another? If someone was going to commit a crime, they would just do it with a gun they already owned or acquired illegally; they wouldn't go through the entire Permit to Acquire/Registration process.
EDIT TO ADD: Do yourself a favor, spend some time researching the 4 states that offer Constitutional Carry - I haven't seen any reports of blood on the streets...despite the anti-2a crowd's best efforts to frighten the sheeple. As Cougar stated, gun owners are, as a whole, an extremely responsible crowd. There will always be bad apples, but in my experience, no amount of training is going to help them.
- Alex
In my opinion I have never seen the logic of making someone who owns numerous handguns legally wait an additional two weeks for every new gun.
This, because If I need a firearm right now to commit a crime, AND I HAVE ONE ALREADY, I am going to go spend money and buy another.
Stupid requirement and a complete waste of taxpayers money.
I now have a delightful mental picture of a ski-mask-wearing Ricky Bobby mindlessly repeating, "Ya gotta spend money to make money, ya gotta spend money to make money..." in the style of "If you ain't first, you're last."
-
I can't vouch for all the courses, but I've been to the LIFE course twice (once on my own, and once to accompany the GF) and I thought they more than covered the full breadth of topics and subject matter. A person coming to the class knowing absolutely nothing about guns, will leave with a healthy understanding of the basics of firearm ownership. But like any knowledge or skillset, unless practiced and applied regularly it depreciates. Moreover, unless the person is willing to apply what they learned, it doesn't mean a damn thing. More training will not fix stupid, irresponsible, or lazy.
I look at firearm permits like drivers licenses. Yes there are idiot drivers out there, just as there are idiot firearm owners out there. The vast majority of drivers and shooters are good decent folk, and you barely even notice them. It's when those idiots mess up, that's when everyone starts paying attention. BUT to say the government needs to step in and implement more rules and regulations just to handle a few stupid people is ridiculous.
Part of the risk of a public range, is it is open to the public-- shooters of all skillsets and mindsets. If you don't feel safe, don't shoot there.
-
BUT to say the government needs to step in and implement more rules and regulations just to handle a few stupid people is ridiculous.
They (GOV) already does way too much of this as it is. Good point.
Just because you took a class in 1987 doesn't mean you are proficient. A class doesn't prevent humans from being human.
-
I think it's enough. It's up to the owner to use common sense and exercise good judgement.
-
I think it's enough. It's up to the owner to use common sense and exercise good judgement.
What is "enough"?
The class?
What if you can't afford it? Should you then not be able to defend yourself and family?
What if you can't afford to wait? Should the same apply?
Please clarify for the group.
This is always a hot topic and it should be.
"shall not be infringed"
-
"shall not be infringed"
^^^ This bears repeating, loudly and preferably from the rooftops!
-
I think it's enough. It's up to the owner to use common sense and exercise good judgement.
What is "enough"?
The class?
What if you can't afford it? Should you then not be able to defend yourself and family?
What if you can't afford to wait? Should the same apply?
Please clarify for the group.
This is always a hot topic and it should be.
"shall not be infringed"
I thought the class was enough. Necessary? Probably not. I've learned most of what I know by surrounding myself by people with experience (2ahawaii.com, friends at the range) and practicing at home. What I don't get is why is it so easy to acquire a rifle in comparison?
I don't know if you interepreted my post as an agreement with the current policy for having to take a class and wait. I don't. The 2 weeks doesn't make sense to me. After the first one, maybe. Every subsequent purchase? I don't get it.
-
I think it's enough. It's up to the owner to use common sense and exercise good judgement.
What is "enough"?
The class?
What if you can't afford it? Should you then not be able to defend yourself and family?
What if you can't afford to wait? Should the same apply?
Please clarify for the group.
This is always a hot topic and it should be.
"shall not be infringed"
I thought the class was enough. Necessary? Probably not. I've learned most of what I know by surrounding myself by people with experience (2ahawaii.com, friends at the range) and practicing at home. What I don't get is why is it so easy to acquire a rifle in comparison?
I don't know if you interepreted my post as an agreement with the current policy for having to take a class and wait. I don't. The 2 weeks doesn't make sense to me. After the first one, maybe. Every subsequent purchase? I don't get it.
Even the first check doesn't make fiscal sense. A NICS check takes 30 seconds from the dealer, no FRU, no police, no going multiple times to a place that knows nothing about the laws. Do you think that the SOH does some thorough background check? No they do the same thing a NICS does. That's instant in most states.
It's about control and discouragement. If I had a list of all the pistols I would have bought if I didn't because i would have to wait 14 days and go through the goat rope...well, it would be it's own thread. I only bought my most recent purchase (Glock 20SF -10mm) because OGC beat EVERY PRICE ON EARTH. Otherwise, I would have waited. Gotta have my 10MM long slide in time for deer season at my next residence.
Imagine all the manpower, money, time, and effort that the state requires for something that the majority of the US uses instead..and it takes about 30 seconds...2 minutes if your gun shop is cheap and on dial up.
And you wonder why we have pot holes everywhere? Misappropriation of funds based on a system that came before instant checks? Yes, I think so.
FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE? I think so.
Let me give you some insight on a simple story. I had a buddy that left here and had purchased and registered firearms here in the state six months before he went back to the mainland. His car was broken into and firearms stolen. He did not have the serial numbers, so he went back to the SOH and guess what? They could produce no paperwork. How about that for accountability and proficiency?
Thoughts?
-
Control and discouragement. That pretty much sums it up. Has it always been like this? Seems like it will only get more difficult in the future. When one pays for the Handgun Safety Course, where does that money go? Entirely to the instructors?
On a somewhat unrelated note, is it the same hassle to renew your permit to acquire?
-
Control and discouragement. That pretty much sums it up. Has it always been like this? Seems like it will only get more difficult in the future. When one pays for the Handgun Safety Course, where does that money go? Entirely to the instructors?
On a somewhat unrelated note, is it the same hassle to renew your permit to acquire?
Yes, each time you buy a pistol or re-new your long arms permit.
Seems silly huh and not unrelated at all.
-
I think it's enough. It's up to the owner to use common sense and exercise good judgement.
What is "enough"?
The class?
What if you can't afford it? Should you then not be able to defend yourself and family?
What if you can't afford to wait? Should the same apply?
Please clarify for the group.
This is always a hot topic and it should be.
"shall not be infringed"
In the spirit of debate, most people take anywhere from 10-18 years of training to exercise their first amendment rights.
-
Even the first check doesn't make fiscal sense. A NICS check takes 30 seconds from the dealer, no FRU, no police, no going multiple times to a place that knows nothing about the laws. Do you think that the SOH does some thorough background check? No they do the same thing a NICS does. That's instant in most states.
It's about control and discouragement. If I had a list of all the pistols I would have bought if I didn't because i would have to wait 14 days and go through the goat rope...well, it would be it's own thread. I only bought my most recent purchase (Glock 20SF -10mm) because OGC beat EVERY PRICE ON EARTH. Otherwise, I would have waited. Gotta have my 10MM long slide in time for deer season at my next residence.
Imagine all the manpower, money, time, and effort that the state requires for something that the majority of the US uses instead..and it takes about 30 seconds...2 minutes if your gun shop is cheap and on dial up.
And you wonder why we have pot holes everywhere? Misappropriation of funds based on a system that came before instant checks? Yes, I think so.
FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE? I think so.
Let me give you some insight on a simple story. I had a buddy that left here and had purchased and registered firearms here in the state six months before he went back to the mainland. His car was broken into and firearms stolen. He did not have the serial numbers, so he went back to the SOH and guess what? They could produce no paperwork. How about that for accountability and proficiency?
Thoughts?
Sorry for my ignorance but what is "NICS" check and "FRU"? All I'm aware of is the HCJDC or Hawaii Criminal Justice Data Center which had a turnaround time of at least a week 20 years ago by snail mail.I would have to expect that the background check includes a look-see into any federal criminal charges and/or convictions as well offenses and/or criminal convictions in all 50 states. I would also have to expect that t there are one or more "clearing houses" for all of this information which is automated.
-
I love how the hamburger option is leading the poll.
:rofl:
-
I knew I should have voted for Hamburger. Really, you'd have to madate days, and maybe weeks, of bootcamp style firearms training to prevent the behavior the OP is talking about.
The NICS check is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. It gets run every time you buy a firearm on a Form 4473. It's the national standard for background checks.
-
There are those who are unsafe. Will additional training help? I don't know, and in some cases, I doubt it.
I heard that a guy put his rifle in his soft case at the range the other day, facing downrange thank God, and pulled the trigger. Blew the front off the case... he didn't clear his rifle. :P
Also, during the ceasefire, a guy leaves his pump shotgun with the bolt closed on the table. The RO asks him to open the bolt, he says I don't know how to open it without pulling the trigger.... :wtf:
The RO opens it up to find 3 more rounds in the magtube! :o
I don't opine that there needs to be mandated training to acquire, however, I do feel in is one responsibility to train oneself to handle and operated a dangerous tool properly and safely.
You can’t legislate against stupidity.
-
You can’t legislate against stupidity.
ain't that the truth! :closed:
-
There are those who are unsafe. Will additional training help? I don't know, and in some cases, I doubt it.
I heard that a guy put his rifle in his soft case at the range the other day, facing downrange thank God, and pulled the trigger. Blew the front off the case... he didn't clear his rifle. :P
Also, during the ceasefire, a guy leaves his pump shotgun with the bolt closed on the table. The RO asks him to open the bolt, he says I don't know how to open it without pulling the trigger.... :wtf:
The RO opens it up to find 3 more rounds in the magtube! :o
I don't opine that there needs to be mandated training to acquire, however, I do feel in is one responsibility to train oneself to handle and operated a dangerous tool properly and safely.
You can’t legislate against stupidity.
There is also no dumbass vaccine.
-
i'm not sure but from what i've seen my pistol qual is good enough for HPD for now.
I havent finished reading the thread yet so this might have been adressed. I think i spelled addressed wrong? Any ways they guys at YG said the military training had to be within one year and that i still had to be in the military. Not sure how true this but they still let me buy pistols and HPD still let me register them. Maybe they over looked it? Not sure but i do know that my trainin is less than a year old.
-
Thats the same thing i heard the guys at YG saying as well. You can use your military paperwork thing (dont know what its called) only as long as your in the military. After your out its no longer valid. Dunno if its true but thats what he was telling the guy.
Travboi were you at young guns yesterday afternoon?
-
i'm not sure but from what i've seen my pistol qual is good enough for HPD for now.
I havent finished reading the thread yet so this might have been adressed. I think i spelled addressed wrong? Any ways they guys at YG said the military training had to be within one year and that i still had to be in the military. Not sure how true this but they still let me buy pistols and HPD still let me register them. Maybe they over looked it? Not sure but i do know that my trainin is less than a year old.
What did you give HPD to verify that you met the training requirements when you applied for your Permit to Acquire?
- Alex
-
i'm not sure but from what i've seen my pistol qual is good enough for HPD for now.
I havent finished reading the thread yet so this might have been adressed. I think i spelled addressed wrong? Any ways they guys at YG said the military training had to be within one year and that i still had to be in the military. Not sure how true this but they still let me buy pistols and HPD still let me register them. Maybe they over looked it? Not sure but i do know that my trainin is less than a year old.
What did you give HPD to verify that you met the training requirements when you applied for your Permit to Acquire?
- Alex
You have to have your command write a letter saying the date you have taken the course. That has to be endorsed with the state stamp or whatevers. HPD allowed me to use mine without being active duty still. Didnt pay too much attention. I have facial hair and earrings now lol I will take a picture of it later today and post it.
I was not at YG yesterday, but i will be there today. Im picking up my new guns.
-
This is the guidance from HPD's website:
The training requirement may be fulfilled by submitting a letter from their commander or firearms training officer which must:
Be typed;
Include the commander’s or training officer’s name, rank , address, and telephone number;
Include a detailed description of the type of training the applicant received and, the date of training;
Include a statement that indicates the applicant successfully completed the firearms training course and can handle and operate a firearm in a safe manner;
Be attested to by the commander or firearms trraing officer;
Be notarized by a State of Hawaii Notary Public
I know that HPD's website is often a poor source for what the law actually says, but I would feel fairly confident assuming that what it says on the site is what they're training their officers on, and is therefore "correct" as far as the firearms division is concerned.
Talk to your branch of service's version of a Yeoman (navy office dude); they probably have the letter saved on their computers, and they can just plug in your particulars and route it to the skipper for signing. At least in the Navy, the XO is an authorized notary public, so depending on how relaxed your command atmosphere is, getting your letter signed/notarized should be a fairly simple process. Of course, I'm in the Navy, and the submarine navy at that, so it may be more difficult for other branches that don't routinely walk into the Old Man's office and say, "Hey, Skipper, you got a minute to sign this letter for me?" YMMV!
-
This is the guidance from HPD's website:
The training requirement may be fulfilled by submitting a letter from their commander or firearms training officer which must:
Be typed;
Include the commander’s or training officer’s name, rank , address, and telephone number;
Include a detailed description of the type of training the applicant received and, the date of training;
Include a statement that indicates the applicant successfully completed the firearms training course and can handle and operate a firearm in a safe manner;
Be attested to by the commander or firearms trraing officer;
Be notarized by a State of Hawaii Notary Public
I know that HPD's website is often a poor source for what the law actually says, but I would feel fairly confident assuming that what it says on the site is what they're training their officers on, and is therefore "correct" as far as the firearms division is concerned.
Talk to your branch of service's version of a Yeoman (navy office dude); they probably have the letter saved on their computers, and they can just plug in your particulars and route it to the skipper for signing. At least in the Navy, the XO is an authorized notary public, so depending on how relaxed your command atmosphere is, getting your letter signed/notarized should be a fairly simple process. Of course, I'm in the Navy, and the submarine navy at that, so it may be more difficult for other branches that don't routinely walk into the Old Man's office and say, "Hey, Skipper, you got a minute to sign this letter for me?" YMMV!
The admin office is where i went. And an O-3 had the notarizing stamp and the authorization to sign.
-
You have to have your command write a letter saying the date you have taken the course. That has to be endorsed with the state stamp or whatevers. HPD allowed me to use mine without being active duty still. Didnt pay too much attention. I have facial hair and earrings now lol I will take a picture of it later today and post it.
I was not at YG yesterday, but i will be there today. Im picking up my new guns.
I don't need a picture. I've seen my fair share of Affidavits of Training. I was just curious what you used specifically.
- Alex
-
There are those who are unsafe. Will additional training help? I don't know, and in some cases, I doubt it.
I heard that a guy put his rifle in his soft case at the range the other day, facing downrange thank God, and pulled the trigger. Blew the front off the case... he didn't clear his rifle. :P
Also, during the ceasefire, a guy leaves his pump shotgun with the bolt closed on the table. The RO asks him to open the bolt, he says I don't know how to open it without pulling the trigger.... :wtf:
The RO opens it up to find 3 more rounds in the magtube! :o
I don't opine that there needs to be mandated training to acquire, however, I do feel in is one responsibility to train oneself to handle and operated a dangerous tool properly and safely.
You can’t legislate against stupidity.
There is also no dumbass vaccine.
Yes there is. It is a 22lr to the back of the head, but the State of Hawaii won't allow it.
-
Id like to take a class that is focused on the weapon itself, safe operation, how it works/take apart, understanding gun terms.
Sounds like i need a mentor or 2. Any volunteers. Hahahahaha.
-
Id like to take a class that is focused on the weapon itself, safe operation, how it works/take apart, understanding gun terms.
Sounds like i need a mentor or 2. Any volunteers. Hahahahaha.
You're welcome to come shooting with me when I go to kokohead.
I've been shooting for over 30 years and have taken numerous safety and training courses over the years
-
There are those who are unsafe. Will additional training help? I don't know, and in some cases, I doubt it.
I heard that a guy put his rifle in his soft case at the range the other day, facing downrange thank God, and pulled the trigger. Blew the front off the case... he didn't clear his rifle. :P
Also, during the ceasefire, a guy leaves his pump shotgun with the bolt closed on the table. The RO asks him to open the bolt, he says I don't know how to open it without pulling the trigger.... :wtf:
The RO opens it up to find 3 more rounds in the magtube! :o
I don't opine that there needs to be mandated training to acquire, however, I do feel in is one responsibility to train oneself to handle and operated a dangerous tool properly and safely.
You canÂ’t legislate against stupidity.
There is also no dumbass vaccine.
Yes, there is...it's lead and usually self-administered...... >:D
-
Given the direction this poll is heading, I'm considering opening a hamburger concessionaire next to the fingerprinting station on the ground floor of HPD's main station.
-
Id like to take a class that is focused on the weapon itself, safe operation, how it works/take apart, understanding gun terms.
Sounds like i need a mentor or 2. Any volunteers. Hahahahaha.
HDF offers a very thorough version of the NRA Pistol course. ;)
- Alex
-
Given the direction this poll is heading, I'm considering opening a hamburger concessionaire next to the fingerprinting station on the ground floor of HPD's main station.
a hamburger stand at the range would be awesome :thumbsup:
-
Id like to take a class that is focused on the weapon itself, safe operation, how it works/take apart, understanding gun terms.
Sounds like i need a mentor or 2. Any volunteers. Hahahahaha.
You're welcome to come shooting with me when I go to kokohead.
I've been shooting for over 30 years and have taken numerous safety and training courses over the years
I might have to take you up on that offer one day. Maybe show me the way of the AK.
And thanks to the other guy that posted about the DHF class, ill look into that as well.
-
I ordered a hamburger.
Any fee, tax, delay, training requirement, "reasonable burden," or any other restriction on firearms ownership or manner of bearing whatsoever, is inherently unconstitutional and illegal.
Repeat that to yourself. Believe it. Live it as much as possible under your present yokes.
The only reason you are under any yoke whatsoever is that the ones who enforce those illegal laws have bigger, faster-firing, and more guns than you do.
Are you shocked? That I ordered a hamburger, I mean?
Terry, 230RN
-
Well, I guess you were shocked. Sorry, but we got along fine for 150 years with almost no firearms laws at all.
-
Well, I guess you were shocked. Sorry, but we got along fine for 150 years with almost no firearms laws at all.
What time period was this?
-
Well, I guess you were shocked. Sorry, but we got along fine for 150 years with almost no firearms laws at all.
What time period was this?
What time period?
Only the greatest time ever in American history.
A time when hamburgers flowed like water. A time when it cost nothing to add cheese. A time when the secret sauce was just mayonnaise and ketchup mixed together.
I want a hamburger!
-
A honest truth would be there have, historically, been even greater burdens on firearms if you look back in history. Professor Adam Winkler of UCLA did a really good job of this Gun Fight. I encourage everyone to purchase and read a copy.
-
A good example would be the $200 stamp tax on Short barreled rifles, silencers, and the like. When the NFA was enacted in 1934, this was the equivalent to around $3000 today. Fortunately, the law does not account for inflation. :D
-
A honest truth would be there have, historically, been even greater burdens on firearms if you look back in history. Professor Adam Winkler of UCLA did a really good job of this Gun Fight. I encourage everyone to purchase and read a copy.
Save us the effort and summarize the book in 5 words or less. :)
-
A honest truth would be there have, historically, been even greater burdens on firearms if you look back in history. Professor Adam Winkler of UCLA did a really good job of this Gun Fight. I encourage everyone to purchase and read a copy.
Save us the effort and summarize the book in 5 words or less. :)
My thoughts exactly.
Farknkocker, I applaud thee.
-
A honest truth would be there have, historically, been even greater burdens on firearms if you look back in history. Professor Adam Winkler of UCLA did a really good job of this Gun Fight. I encourage everyone to purchase and read a copy.
Save us the effort and summarize the book in 5 words or less. :)
My thoughts exactly.
Farknkocker, I applaud thee.
Funtimes PUI. Buy Gun Fight.
-
Some stuff will stand, sucks.
^^ Five words. But, in all honesty, its one of the better books I have read in a long time. It covers a bunch of the drama of heller and things I never really knew about the NRA. It was eye opening.
-
Eye opening book, covers much. :thumbsup:
-
Oh yeah what the heck is PUI :o?
I even googled it ;( nothing.
-
Oh yeah what the heck is PUI :o?
I even googled it ;( nothing.
Probably one of these three. Doubt its the last one, though.
1. Posting Under the Influence
2. Plan d'Urgence Interne (French: Internal Emergency Plan); or
3. Pokemon USA Inc.
-
A honest truth would be there have, historically, been even greater burdens on firearms if you look back in history. Professor Adam Winkler of UCLA did a really good job of this Gun Fight. I encourage everyone to purchase and read a copy.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393077411/?tag=2ahawaii-20 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393077411/?tag=2ahawaii-20)
Hmmm...$18.45 on Amazon.com....
That's about the cost of a box of 130 gr .270 Winchester at SA on sale.
Decisions, decisions, decision....
-
"I was too busy pointing my gun at someone elses head" ??? Was that a joke?
Okaaaay.
I know of firearms instructors here that have not passed students on the first try (sometimes the 2nd try) in a class who they feel they are not ready. They end up taking the class again especially the range portion to make sure they are safe.
Sometimes people forget /not paying attention. When you are at a range and see someone doing something unsafe especially one next to you then I would make it m my point to correct that person. I know there are some people that no matter what kind of training they get are unsafe.
Making mandatory safety class or more hours of training is more of a control by the Gov't. Look at what happened here. The law stated that HPD taught safety classes are okay but HPD will not teach the safety classes. Then HPD said the Hunters Ed course is no good because it didn't have the range time. - Yea I know Hunters Ed is more for hunters and hikers but thats course is included. The Hunters Ed courses here are usually full and on a standby bases. That class is held once every 3 months or so.
Anyways I'll have a hamburger too.
-
A honest truth would be there have, historically, been even greater burdens on firearms if you look back in history. Professor Adam Winkler of UCLA did a really good job of this Gun Fight. I encourage everyone to purchase and read a copy.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393077411/?tag=2ahawaii-20 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393077411/?tag=2ahawaii-20)
Hmmm...$18.45 on Amazon.com....
That's about the cost of a box of 130 gr .270 Winchester at SA on sale.
Decisions, decisions, decision....
I think the kindle version may be cheaper. The book is good, and you don't have to take my word for it (omg reading rainbow!).
-
Making mandatory safety class or more hours of training is more of a control by the Gov't. Look at what happened here. The law stated that HPD taught safety classes are okay but HPD will not teach the safety classes. Then HPD said the Hunters Ed course is no good because it didn't have the range time. - Yea I know Hunters Ed is more for hunters and hikers but thats course is included. The Hunters Ed courses here are usually full and on a standby bases. That class is held once every 3 months or so.
Anyways I'll have a hamburger too.
Hunter's Ed is no good? Since when? I used it last year to purchase a pistol. And I've been thinking about gettting another one for christmas.
-
Nah hunters ed still qualifies. I used that to get my handgun permit. Picking it up on the 16th then shooting range on saturday!!
-
I was figuring 1934 - 1779 = 155.
OMG a 3% error! For shame, Terry!
I was figuring Federally.
-
I was figuring 1934 - 1779 = 155.
OMG a 3% error! For shame, Terry!
I was figuring Federally.
I think most of us weren't around then.
Although rumor has it, that you owned your first gun in the year 1834. Haha, (J/K)
-
Although rumor has it, that you owned your first gun in the year 1834. Haha, (J/K)
:) You don't have to label it as a joke. I have a pretty good sense of humor about age.
I hate to sound like an Old Pharte talking down to you Whippersnappers, but I fired my first gun in about 1946-ish and owned my first cartridge gun in about 1959 (some air/CO2-operated guns before then). This latter was under the very restrictive laws of New York, which I thought were Supposed To Be Universal Truths.
When I moved out to Colorado in about 1963, I discovered what it was like to breathe "free air" and bought my first handgun (a cheap "Saturday Night Special" in .22LR) out here in about 1963, practically the moment I established residency and got a Colorado driver's license. No paperwork, no nuthin' except to show my new DL to prove residency.
Still, for months, I felt like a criminal because I had a "GU-UHN," almost to the point where I'd draw the curtains so nobody outside could see me fondling it. It took a while to break away from that "Noo Yawk attitude" about "GU-UHNS."
But I gradually became acclimated to "freedom" out here in CO and soon bought a Commercial 1911. This was quite a challenging mental change after the NY brainwashing I'd been subjected to. I also met and befriended a guy who was pretty gun-savvy and let me borrow a couple of his guns from time to time. He also sponsored my membership in the NRA... yes, you needed a sponsor to join, at the time.
Got into reloading and especially high-power precision shooting, etc, etc, to the point nowadays where I own guns I haven't even fired yet.
I was royally pissed soon after GCA 1968 when I found I had to fill out paperwork to purchase a gun, and I couldn't mail-order them (thanks, Lee Harvey Oswald! :( ) . At the time, the "paperwork" was a mimeographed one-page affair from the ATF, or whatever it was called at the time,
And look where we've gone from there.
So here comes the Old Pharte "talking down" to you Whippersnappers part.
(1) As I stated above,
Any fee, tax, delay, training requirement, "reasonable burden," or any other restriction on firearms ownership or manner of bearing whatsoever, is inherently unconstitutional and illegal.
This, under the "shall not be infringed" rubric. You can fiddley--fart around all you want about the meaning of the first clause, but the meaning of the operative clause is clear. And to me, well-regulated means well-trained and equipped, not well-trammeled and restricted. And "militia" means you and me, despite any Post-Ratification Weasel-Word definitions thereof. You can squirm and worm your way around with local Court definitions of "constitutional," but that don't make them laws Constitutional nohow.
(2) Any Post-Ratification Weasel-Word laws about firearms are null and void. You can talk about "reasonable" all you want, but "reasonable " is an indefinite term. Attempts to "clarify" it with a "reasonable man" test fall short, since "reasonable" to me means no restrictions, and "reasonable" to you means "yeah, sure, but a guy who is caught taking a leak in an alley should be branded as a sex offender (public exposure) and forever barred from owning or possessing a gun." Which, I am told, is at least a theoretical possibility, even if it may never have been documented. "Reasonable," my sweet pink wrinkled old ass.
(3) While Colorado is not the most 2A-respecting state in the nation, when 2ahawaii started this site, I got interested because I loved Hawaii when I was there a couple of decades ago. I have since found by reading your site that your restrictions are inherently unreasonable and I am passionately engaged in your struggle to make them reasonable.
To my Olde Pharte definition.
....
Gotta go. Gotta batten down some hatches a little bit 'cause 80 mph winds are blowing things around outside.
Terry, 230RN
-
We appreciate your "old fut" (old fart in Pidgin) support :D
-
Nah hunters ed still qualifies. I used that to get my handgun permit. Picking it up on the 16th then shooting range on saturday!!
My hunters Ed from Wyoming is good here. I took the class in 1987.......still good as of two weeks ago.
-
Nah hunters ed still qualifies. I used that to get my handgun permit. Picking it up on the 16th then shooting range on saturday!!
My hunters Ed from Wyoming is good here. I took the class in 1987.......still good as of two weeks ago.
Holy shit thats when i was born....Nah. Just keeping with the "old" theme. Nah no offense.
-
Nah hunters ed still qualifies. I used that to get my handgun permit. Picking it up on the 16th then shooting range on saturday!!
My hunters Ed from Wyoming is good here. I took the class in 1987.......still good as of two weeks ago.
Holy **** thats when i was born....Nah. Just keeping with the "old" theme. Nah no offense.
Its all good!
-
Damn voodoo, you're old. :geekdanc:
-
Sorry about the mix up.
I should of added Honolulu police departement at one point said no to hunters ed. The police department on the other islands didn't have any problems. After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.
-
Kumachan said,
After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.
Sounds to me like you guys ought to absolutely bury them in lawsuits. Your post reminded me of the fact that all bullies back off when confronted with a counter-threat.
Yeah, I know, "off-island" agents provocateur are stirring up the natives.
You got that right, Chief.
Terry, 230RN
(Welcome aboard, Kumachan ! )
-
Kumachan said,
After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.
Sounds to me like you guys ought to absolutely bury them in lawsuits. Your post reminded me of the fact that all bullies back off when confronted with a counter-threat.
Yeah, I know, "off-island" agents provocateur are stirring up the natives.
You got that right, Chief.
Terry, 230RN
(Welcome aboard, Kumachan ! )
I agree. Or at least let them be aware that people in hawaii have a vested interest in their rights to bear arms by supporting any gun measures/deferments, ranges, apply for ccw, etc, etc.
Speaking of which im going to apply for my ccw permit. Will get declined, but at least it will be a new face showing up on the radar.
-
Kumachan said,
After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.
Sounds to me like you guys ought to absolutely bury them in lawsuits. Your post reminded me of the fact that all bullies back off when confronted with a counter-threat.
Yeah, I know, "off-island" agents provocateur are stirring up the natives.
You got that right, Chief.
Terry, 230RN
(Welcome aboard, Kumachan ! )
I agree. Or at least let them be aware that people in hawaii have a vested interest in their rights to bear arms by supporting any gun measures/deferments, ranges, apply for ccw, etc, etc.
Speaking of which im going to apply for my ccw permit. Will get declined, but at least it will be a new face showing up on the radar.
I'm digging it =)! Mahalo for your support.
-
Kumachan said,
After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.
Sounds to me like you guys ought to absolutely bury them in lawsuits. Your post reminded me of the fact that all bullies back off when confronted with a counter-threat.
Yeah, I know, "off-island" agents provocateur are stirring up the natives.
You got that right, Chief.
Terry, 230RN
(Welcome aboard, Kumachan ! )
I agree. Or at least let them be aware that people in hawaii have a vested interest in their rights to bear arms by supporting any gun measures/deferments, ranges, apply for ccw, etc, etc.
Speaking of which im going to apply for my ccw permit. Will get declined, but at least it will be a new face showing up on the radar.
I'm digging it =)! Mahalo for your support.
Dig 'em
80's Sugar Smacks Cereal Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py7-BDebmD4#)
-
...........
I hate to sound like an Old Pharte talking down to you Whippersnappers, but I fired my first gun in about 1946-ish and owned my first cartridge gun in about 1959 (some air/CO2-operated guns before then). This latter was under the very restrictive laws of New York, which I thought were Supposed To Be Universal Truths...................
Terry, 230RN
Jeebus...........When Dinosaurs Walked the Earth..........
-
^
Yeah, and the damned Clan Leader wanted us to register our spears and high-capacity clubs. "No clubs that weighed over 10 glubils, no spears with shafts over half a thumbjoint."
But the bad cavemen among us still carried clubs that weighed over 10 glubils, since they would disregard any club or spear limitations simply because they were bad boys in the first place.
That put us good clan membes at a disadvantage in protecting our firewood and bone tools, as well as our cavewives and daughters, so we un-chose that Clan Leader and chose another one. He went back to being a ruleyer in private practice.
(A glubil is equivalent nowadays to about half a kilo, a thumbjoint is the distance from your thumbtip to the first joint, so half a thumbjoint is about .50 "caliber," and a ruleyer is more or less equivalent to the present day lawyer.)
Terry, 230RN
-
I've posted this elsewhere (or maybe in this very thread, but so many hours ago that I forgot it), but here's what I would do:
1. Eliminate the requirement for training. After all, any requirement can be interpreted as an obstacle in the path of exercising rights.
2. Mandate a 20% tax on all sales of firearms and ammunition to anyone who cannot provide a current certification in safe firearms handling.
3. Use the proceeds from said tax to sunsidize NRA-certified trainers providing free training to the public.
That way, anyone who REALLY doesn't want to train doesn't have to. Anyone in a hurry to get a gun and some ammo can. But, I bet you a shiny new gun of your choice, most folks will vote with their money and get certified.
-
I've posted this elsewhere (or maybe in this very thread, but so many hours ago that I forgot it), but here's what I would do:
1. Eliminate the requirement for training. After all, any requirement can be interpreted as an obstacle in the path of exercising rights.
2. Mandate a 20% tax on all sales of firearms and ammunition to anyone who cannot provide a current certification in safe firearms handling.
3. Use the proceeds from said tax to sunsidize NRA-certified trainers providing free training to the public.
That way, anyone who REALLY doesn't want to train doesn't have to. Anyone in a hurry to get a gun and some ammo can. But, I bet you a shiny new gun of your choice, most folks will vote with their money and get certified.
TBH I'd like to see the whole "NRA" certified thing go away. I honestly think the programs I can teach far exceed the NRA standards, are more practical, and just as safe. Maybe they should have some sort of license test (although I don't really like that idea either). I just thin it kind of sucks that the NRA gets dibs on everything while having so much control of that persons license. I don't like that people are forced to associate with an organization that they may not want to just to engage in the lawful exercise of a business.
-
I've posted this elsewhere (or maybe in this very thread, but so many hours ago that I forgot it), but here's what I would do:
1. Eliminate the requirement for training. After all, any requirement can be interpreted as an obstacle in the path of exercising rights.
2. Mandate a 20% tax on all sales of firearms and ammunition to anyone who cannot provide a current certification in safe firearms handling.
3. Use the proceeds from said tax to sunsidize NRA-certified trainers providing free training to the public.
That way, anyone who REALLY doesn't want to train doesn't have to. Anyone in a hurry to get a gun and some ammo can. But, I bet you a shiny new gun of your choice, most folks will vote with their money and get certified.
TBH I'd like to see the whole "NRA" certified thing go away. I honestly think the programs I can teach far exceed the NRA standards, are more practical, and just as safe. Maybe they should have some sort of license test (although I don't really like that idea either). I just thin it kind of sucks that the NRA gets dibs on everything while having so much control of that persons license. I don't like that people are forced to associate with an organization that they may not want to just to engage in the lawful exercise of a business.
I would be open to alternatives to NRA trainers. Honestly, I wish someone would come along and knock NRA off of their pedestal. As an organization, and as a lobbying group, they leave lots and lots to be desired.
What I want to avoid in this system is having the training be done by the same organization (aka the gummit) that is in charge of legislating it and funding it.
And, to be clear, I'm talking about this as a national program, not just local kine. A self-fueled training juggernaut supported entirely by the people who don't think it should exist.
-
I've posted this elsewhere (or maybe in this very thread, but so many hours ago that I forgot it), but here's what I would do:
1. Eliminate the requirement for training. After all, any requirement can be interpreted as an obstacle in the path of exercising rights.
2. Mandate a 20% tax on all sales of firearms and ammunition to anyone who cannot provide a current certification in safe firearms handling.
3. Use the proceeds from said tax to sunsidize NRA-certified trainers providing free training to the public.
That way, anyone who REALLY doesn't want to train doesn't have to. Anyone in a hurry to get a gun and some ammo can. But, I bet you a shiny new gun of your choice, most folks will vote with their money and get certified.
TBH I'd like to see the whole "NRA" certified thing go away. I honestly think the programs I can teach far exceed the NRA standards, are more practical, and just as safe. Maybe they should have some sort of license test (although I don't really like that idea either). I just thin it kind of sucks that the NRA gets dibs on everything while having so much control of that persons license. I don't like that people are forced to associate with an organization that they may not want to just to engage in the lawful exercise of a business.
While your standard of training is excellent, the same cannot be said for every one out there.
By making it an NRA certified instructor, they know what they get.
It would otherwise be more difficult to ascertain the level of training and safety from one instructor to the next.
I've seen some knuckleheads that think they know all about guns, "teaching" someone else to do something extremely unsafe.
-
Funtimes what kind of classes do you teach and how do you sgin up?
Also heard various opinions about the NRA class. Some say its worth it and others say dont spend the money on it because it doesnt differ much from the hunters ed class. Not to sure on that one.
-
Funtimes what kind of classes do you teach and how do you sgin up?
Also heard various opinions about the NRA class. Some say its worth it and others say dont spend the money on it because it doesnt differ much from the hunters ed class. Not to sure on that one.
I do the basic handgun safety courses; we also teach a different basic handgun safety for HDF (nearly the same material, but its not NRA). The later is usually done when someone really wants their gun for self-defense, we can teach a bit more practical application of the firearm in the home, drawing from holsters etc.
I think what I will do next is teach a course on FL CCW permits. I would do Utah, but it's not much better than FL, and I have to go to Utah to get certified. I have some sick plans for the future, just need the time to put it all together.
-
Tom_G
And, to be clear, I'm talking about this as a national program, not just local kine. A self-fueled training juggernaut supported entirely by the people who don't think it should exist.
An intriguing idea. Just skylarking here, but perhaps a coalition of various organizations (GOA, NRA, JPFO, etc) could be formed for the expressed and only purpose of developing a more-or-less "universally" agreed-up training curriculum, lesson plan, whatever.
It's kind of a shame that we are so splintered in our approaches to the 2A organizations ("I hate the NRA," "GOA is too aggressive for me," "JPFO is for the Jews and I'm not a Jew," "Terry is an idiot," and the like) that "we" cannot really act in a unified blockbuster fashion. (As opposed to the antis, who are in universal, if unstated, agreement to get rid of all guns.)
Tom_G's idea bears some thrashing out, I think.
For me, I'm against any training requirement, but I recognize that the days of a father or uncle or older brother or whomever providing the grounding in firearms handling are pretty much over, and I, too am looking for some way to fill that gap without making it a governmental requirement. (I can see a governmental program when firearms usage becomes common and accepted once again, but not for nowadays.)
I don't like the idea of a "tax break," but it's worth discussing to see if there might be other viable ways of motivating folks to get some grounding in firearms handling.
And my sig line stands as the basic position from which I can very reluctantly negotiate, but I can still skylark about other ideas.
Terry, 230RN
-
Tom_G's idea bears some thrashing out, I think.
For me, I'm against any training requirement, but I recognize that the days of a father or uncle or older brother or whomever providing the grounding in firearms handling are pretty much over, and I, too am looking for some way to fill that gap without making it a governmental requirement. (I can see a governmental program when firearms usage becomes common and accepted once again, but not for nowadays.)
I don't like the idea of a "tax break," but it's worth discussing to see if there might be other viable ways of motivating folks to get some grounding in firearms handling.
What I like about my idea is that there is no requirement. Just incentive.
Companies and governments give people breaks all the time. Buy a gun on Labor Day and save 20% Buy 100$ and get a 25$ gift card. Donate money to charity and write it off your taxes. Bring your company to our state and get a tax break for 5 years. Pay cash, get 3% off. Buy a house for the first time, don't pay homeowner's tax the first year. Etc, etc, etc.
That's all we're talking about here. It's no more a barrier to buying a firearm than shopping when it's not Labor Day is, or simply failing to do comparison shopping. It's your money and your time, you get to choose how each is spent. Take the free class, or pay not to.
Now, I immediately went to "NRA certified" because, as KingKeoni said, it is a nationally-recognized, standardized system that is already in place. Well, he didn't say that, but you could infer it from what he did say. I have no problem with some other organization, or coalition of organizations, defining the criteria for this national safety certification. But, to get the ball rolling, I'd start with the NRA, then re-invent the wheel after the program was adopted.
Also heard various opinions about the NRA class. Some say its worth it and others say dont spend the money on it because it doesnt differ much from the hunters ed class. Not to sure on that one.
Are the people you talk to on crack? One class is about GUNS. It teaches you how they work, how to use them, and lets you shoot them. The other class is about HUNTING REGULATIONS. They do mention that some people use guns to hunt, and tell you about the hunting laws as they pertain to guns. It's like saying there's not much difference between eating a candy bar and just reading the label.
-
Tom_G
What I like about my idea is that there is no requirement. Just incentive.
Agreed. But "Aye, there's the rub."*
Tom_G
But, to get the ball rolling, I'd start with the NRA, then re-invent the wheel after the program was adopted.
I don't disagree there, but sooner or later we'd have to harmonize possible conflicting viewpoints among the large 2A groups, so I'd suggest doing it sooner. And the coalition thus formed would be the "juggernaut" or "blockbuster."
bass monkey
Also heard various opinions about the NRA class. Some say its worth it and others say dont spend the money on it because it doesnt differ much from the hunters ed class. Not to sure on that one
.
This apparently varies fom State to State depending on your wildlife agency. In my Hunter Ed class (CO, 1988) , there was quite a bit on handling and other things, but no shooting requirement. (I didn't have to take the class since I was "grandfathered" in, but I took it with my son anyhow just to be there.)
My sig line still stands.
Terry, 230RN
* Hamlet Act 3, Scene 1