Is there an electrician in the house? (Read 30657 times)

ButtNutt

Is there an electrician in the house?
« on: August 03, 2013, 04:42:01 PM »
I got an ETek multimeter and every outlet in my home tests about 6.4V. Is that possible?  I got it long ago so I can't return it, but before I go spend 50$ on a new one I figured I'd ask if that's possible appliances seem to work fine but when my catchment pump or fridge or hair dryer go on the house lights dim?  Is it possible the 6V is real or do I have a bad multimeter?

moosed

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Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 05:29:08 PM »
Are you sure you're configured to test Volts? 

Sounds more like Amps.

Can you post the model of the ETek?  Maybe a pic of the meter?
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230RN

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Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 05:55:44 PM »
Open it* up and check the fuses.  It could be reading that slight AC voltage "through" the burnt-out fuse's very slight capacitance between the ends of the melted fuse.

One of the problems with modern high-impedance (high sensitivity) meters is that they will give readings if there are two electrons running around loose in the room.

Proof:  set a working electronic meter on a low voltage scale and wave one of the probes around.  Unless it's very humid, you will read the slight variable static voltages developed by the probe point's passage through the air.

There are times when an old-fashioned low sensitivity meter with a coil and a magnet (D'Arsonval style) will give more realistic readings than an electronic meter because they load down the circuit a little.

Another time they get flaky is when their sampling rate heterodynes with a signal near that sampling rate (or near one of its harmonics).

Terry, 230RN

* (edited to add) Meaning the meter.  All of them have protective fuses inside. If the fuse is burned out, instead of passing the full measurement current through the fuse element, it will pass a certain small amount of current because the two ends of the burned-out fuse element will act as a tiny capacitor and the meter will show a small voltage because of this.



« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 03:40:50 AM by 230RN »
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

new guy

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 08:13:59 PM »
.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 05:24:14 PM by new guy »
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wirecounter

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 08:39:35 PM »
I got an ETek multimeter and every outlet in my home tests about 6.4V. Is that possible?  I got it long ago so I can't return it, but before I go spend 50$ on a new one I figured I'd ask if that's possible appliances seem to work fine but when my catchment pump or fridge or hair dryer go on the house lights dim?  Is it possible the 6V is real or do I have a bad multimeter?

Are you measuring A/C or D/C volts?  It does not seem correct that every plug properly powers your stuff but only measures 6.4 volts.  Throw away the multmeter.

If everything in your house plugs in and works fine then you have the proper voltage ~ 120 VAC.  The house lights will dim ( I assume that you have an older house 30 years plus) when a high powered appliance like the ones you mention is turned on because the main feeder (size of the electrical wires from the pole to your house) is not sufficient to power all these appliances.  I had this same problem with our old house when my air compressor was turned on.

I would contact a licensed electrician, like the one suggested by new guy, if you want to up the feeder to your house.  I believe that HECO will install the feeder for free, but you need the electrician to modernize your electrical panels and house wiring = big bucks.

Or live with the temporary dimming of your house lights.  Unless, your house is old enough that the wiring (hot and neutral, the two conductors) are separate and installed on ceramic posts.  If this is the case, then I would strongly suggest you have your house wiring modernized to avoid problems due to the old wiring and power demands of all your modern appliances.

bass monkey

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 09:28:43 PM »
Dang bro. Sorry to hear about your troubles.  Hope you don't have to rewire the house, but then that's better then having it burn down.

Kanakamaoli23

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 10:36:26 PM »
i am a journeyman electrician. if your appliances and things like that are all working it seems as tho your multimeter is junk. im not sure what fuses the guy above is talking about but if you want to have a professional come out and trouble shoot the issues you may have feel free to PM me. good luck brother

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 11:19:59 PM »

Are you sure you're configured to test Volts? 

Sounds more like Amps.

Can you post the model of the ETek?  Maybe a pic of the meter?
Yeah. Was on volts.

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 11:23:50 PM »

Open it up and check the fuses.  It could be reading that slight AC voltage "through" the burnt-out fuse's very slight capacitance between the ends of the melted fuse.

One of the problems with modern high-impedance (high sensitivity) meters is that they will give readings if there are two electrons running around loose in the room.

Proof:  set a working electronic meter on a low voltage scale and wave one of the probes around.  Unless it's very humid, you will read the slight variable static voltages developed by the probe point's passage through the air.

There are times when an old-fashioned low sensitivity meter with a coil and a magnet (D'Arsonval style) will give more realistic readings than an electronic meter because they load down the circuit a little.

Another time they get flaky is when their sampling rate heterodynes with a signal near that sampling rate (or near one of its harmonics).

Terry, 230RN
crap. That makes a lot of sense. Sounds like you know your shit. I also notice it reads a tenth or so volts when I break the circuit. Not sure if that's consistent with what you said. I got called into work all day so when I get home tomorrow morning in gonna take out the fuse and look at it. Thanks!!

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 11:29:24 PM »

@ 230RN - Holy crap, Terry... I lost you at, "Open it up and check the fuses."   ;D

@ Buttnutt - Satoru Oshiro from SOS Electric was super on-it with getting rid of our old knob and tube, and bringing our house into compliance with current code.

He's a smaller, older Japanese dude who still seems spry enough to climb around tight crawlspaces, and he is old-school (won't rip you, but isn't afraid to tell you like it is).

Just my personal experience.   :shaka:
Thanks man. That's actually awesome cause he sounds just like what I've been looking for. Most electricians I meet or call to consult are very short and abrupt and won't help me out with little projects, but small as they are, I just can't do all things on my own. I know they wanna make big bucks and they're not into charity cases but jeez. I'm gonna look that guy up when I need someone. Thanks!

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 11:41:30 PM »

Are you measuring A/C or D/C volts?  It does not seem correct that every plug properly powers your stuff but only measures 6.4 volts.  Throw away the multmeter.

If everything in your house plugs in and works fine then you have the proper voltage ~ 120 VAC.  The house lights will dim ( I assume that you have an older house 30 years plus) when a high powered appliance like the ones you mention is turned on because the main feeder (size of the electrical wires from the pole to your house) is not sufficient to power all these appliances.  I had this same problem with our old house when my air compressor was turned on.

I would contact a licensed electrician, like the one suggested by new guy, if you want to up the feeder to your house.  I believe that HECO will install the feeder for free, but you need the electrician to modernize your electrical panels and house wiring = big bucks.

Or live with the temporary dimming of your house lights.  Unless, your house is old enough that the wiring (hot and neutral, the two conductors) are separate and installed on ceramic posts.  If this is the case, then I would strongly suggest you have your house wiring modernized to avoid problems due to the old wiring and power demands of all your modern appliances.
Yeah. I confirmed I'm measuring AC volts and setting the multimeter to 200V range as its the closest to 120. But funny thing is, the house is built 2008 and i bought it three yrs ago, but I tell you, the more I do home projects the more I see the builder cut some serious corners on all sorts of shit. Specially the electric. Outdoor security lights stopped workin one by one. sunken in 15 amp duplex on a 20 amp breaker. Which just stopped Workibg! Serious first time buyer learning lesson for me. K. Back to topic.
But the feeder enters the ground down a pole about 200' from the house and after that is the breaker box. So I'd need a back ho to dig up that line. and i aint rich! But is guess its the thicker more modern line you're talking about, but with this builder.....I wouldn't be surprised if its as thin as indoor guage wire :0
I gotta check that multimeter. No way my fridge compressor n catchment pump could be going on/off with such low voltage.
Mahalo!!

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 11:42:37 PM »

Dang bro. Sorry to hear about your troubles.  Hope you don't have to rewire the house, but then that's better then having it burn down.
yeah man. I'm really getting scared of the wiring in this place!

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 11:44:57 PM »

i am a journeyman electrician. if your appliances and things like that are all working it seems as tho your multimeter is junk. im not sure what fuses the guy above is talking about but if you want to have a professional come out and trouble shoot the issues you may have feel free to PM me. good luck brother
i think he's talkin bout the fuse in the multimeter. The manual says it has one. So I'm gonna check on that tomorrow. But I'll see what happens and PM you if I don't figure this out. Thanks!

230RN

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Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 03:27:59 AM »
Oh, sorry.  I should have specified the fuses in the meter more clearly.  My bad.  Will edit the original post.

The rest of the stuff is my normal discussion on certain measuring problems with high-impedance (high sensitivity) electronic meters.  Optional reading.  Basically, sometimes their hyper-sensitivity and their measuring (sampling) frequencies lead to bad readings. 

I have a wide assortment of electronic meters, and they have their place, but actually, I usually use one of several D'Arsonval (magnet-and-coil) meters.  My favorite is a little Radio Shack 2000 ohms-per-volt one that cost about ten bucks many years ago.

When that one says ten volts, there's really ten whole honest-to-gawd manly hairy-assed volts present, and not pansy little artifacts due to static or stray magnetic fields. :D

Terry, 230RN

REF (D'Arsonval moving-coil meter movement):
http://www.engineersedge.com/instrumentation/electrical_meters_measurement/images/darsonval.gif

« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 04:15:34 AM by 230RN »
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

Kanakamaoli23

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2013, 07:22:55 AM »
The best electrical meter that you can buy is the Fluke T5-600. I am a licensed journeyman electrician and i have never once seen a fellow electrician use anything bought from radio shack. Did you say the house was built in 2008? If that is the case it is highly unlikely that you would need a service upgrade. You are likely to have a 125 amp service which is plenty for an average sized house. Imaginre that 50% of the houses on this island have 75 amp services. The lights dimming when you plug in devices with a very heavy draw is a sign that specific circuits may be overloaded,  buut doesnt necessarily mean that you have to change the feed from heco. Also, if you have an underground service it can be extremely costly to do a service ugrade because it often requires digging up the trench and rerunning a bigger conduit to support the bigger wire required for the service upgrade. If you get yourself a good tester, take the panel cover off of yourr loadcenter and test each breaker for voltage. place one lead of the tester on the ground buss bar and then touch the fastening screw where the wire enters each breaker. if you do not get 120, or something very close to that, on each breaker, then you may have a bad breaker.

wirecounter

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2013, 09:20:05 AM »
+1 to what kanakamaoli23 said.

I have a Fluke 77 that is almost 20 years old and it still works like a champ!

Be very careful if you remove the load center (electrical circuit breaker panel) cover to measure the voltage as the main buss bars will be exposed.  It is most likely that as kanakamaoli23 stated that the particular circuit is overloaded, but not quite enough to pop the breaker.  Possible, but highly unlikely, is that the contractor installed wiring that is not sufficient and does not meet electrical code - minimum 14 gauge for a 15 amp circuit.

Your fridge should be plugged into a dedicated circuit - check the labels in the electrical panel.  You most likely need to have some of the plugs split into separate circuits.  You can have mini-breakers (breakers that take 1/2 the physical space of a standard breaker) installed if there are no spare/open slots in the electrical panel.

Even the bathroom plugs should be a separate circuit from your other plugs in the house - with GFI plugs.  The contractor may have cut corners by combining the circuits for the plugs instead of home running separate circuits to save a couple of bucks. I.e., the bedroom plugs, bathroom plugs, living room plugs, and kitchen plugs should all have their own circuit/breaker.

I am not an electrician, but have counted wires . . .

wirecounter

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2013, 09:38:00 AM »
The feeder off the pole should be fine.  If it is undersized, then the contractor should be liable for the cost for ugrading the feeder.  I have not researched it, but it most likely does not meet the building code requirements if is not sized at least at what kanakamaoli23 stated - 125A.

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2013, 09:56:23 AM »

When that one says ten volts, there's really ten whole honest-to-gawd manly hairy-assed volts present, and not pansy little artifacts..........
Yo man, if anyone knows that dude on 2ahawaii that is compiling a list of the best quotes from post on all the forums send'm this one; cuz its GOT to go on the list :rofl: F'ing classic man!
So I pulled out the fuse and its fried. I don't even see the filament. Like its vaporized. I think someone tested some high amps with this thing, toasted it, and returned it. Thanks for the link. I'm gonna go into town to get a fuse and I'll see about a spare meter if they got that old one you mentioned. If the fuse don't fix it, I'd guess the meter was fried all together. Then I'll check out your link for sure.

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2013, 10:06:07 AM »

The best electrical meter that you can buy is the Fluke T5-600. I am a licensed journeyman electrician and i have never once seen a fellow electrician use anything bought from radio shack. Did you say the house was built in 2008? If that is the case it is highly unlikely that you would need a service upgrade. You are likely to have a 125 amp service which is plenty for an average sized house. Imaginre that 50% of the houses on this island have 75 amp services. The lights dimming when you plug in devices with a very heavy draw is a sign that specific circuits may be overloaded,  buut doesnt necessarily mean that you have to change the feed from heco. Also, if you have an underground service it can be extremely costly to do a service ugrade because it often requires digging up the trench and rerunning a bigger conduit to support the bigger wire required for the service upgrade. If you get yourself a good tester, take the panel cover off of yourr loadcenter and test each breaker for voltage. place one lead of the tester on the ground buss bar and then touch the fastening screw where the wire enters each breaker. if you do not get 120, or something very close to that, on each breaker, then you may have a bad breaker.
Thanks for the tip on that meter model. And yeah, I was thinking bout a bad breaker so I looked on YouTube and found a guide for testing the breaker. So thanks for that tip. Do you know how I can tell if I have 125 amp service?  Is it stamped anywhere?  Any way to tell?

bass monkey

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2013, 10:13:55 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, that's usually universal household rating.  According to codes and whatnot. 125.