Is there an electrician in the house? (Read 30662 times)

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2013, 09:11:18 PM »
K guys. Now I'm confused, unless someone can figure this out for me. 
Here's what started this all: next to my sink I have a GFI duplex outlet with a green indicator LED in the upper right, on a 20A breaker; the finishing plate is cracked beneath it, the lower left of the outlet is sunken in, and there's char in the lower left T-slot; it always worked fine, tested monthly. 
i only have a microwave plugged into it when I'm home; when I go out I unplug it (cause the outlet looks funny)  A week ago I plugged in the mic and I heard a slight pop and think I saw a spark, but the GFCI and breaker didn't trip.  The mic wasn't working but the outlet LED was still on. I pressed the test button and reset it a few times and the LED would still come on but the mic didn't work. 
A couple of days ago I got the time to test the non-GFCI outlet on the counter upstream of it on the same breaker.  It worked ok.  When I incorrectly used my multimeter on THAT outlet it blew the multimeter fuse.  but I not knowing this, kept testing it, and the rest of the house, and getting the ~6V readings, but when testing the aforementioned GFCI outlet, I would get 0.1V (almost zero), which made since since the mic wouldn't work.
Ok, now the confusing part: I just replaced the multimeter fuse and tested the outlet upstream from the GFCI outlet and it was reading 114V.  THEN, I reset the GFCI outlet that wasn't working a few days ago, and it said around 114V as well???  Then I plugged in the mic and it worked???  I took a piss and got a drink and tested both outlets again ten min later and they both read around 118V?

So here we go gentlemen; is there an explanation for the following:
1) how could the GFCI outlet pop and spark but not trip the GFCI mechanism or the breaker?
2) how could the mic not have worked in the outlet, but the GFCI outlet indicator LED was still on?
3) how could the mic in the outlet have NOT been working after the pop/spark, and then suddenly BE working four days later?
4) why would the two outlets that are the only outlets on the 20A breaker, with nothing plugged into them, read 114V and then 118V ten min later?
5) if the answer to "4" above is because other things in the house going on/off causes the flux, does it indicate I still have a problem with the feeder, breaker, or anything else in the system?

I went into the detail so you guys would still help me and not blow me off, thinking I'm a dope who sent you on a wild goose chase since the initial question was related to me blowing the fuse in the multi meter.  So if you could answer the questions above, that would be awesome, cause I'm still not in the clear on this issue.
Big mahalos !!!  Seriously!

wirecounter

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2013, 09:53:38 PM »
K guys. Now I'm confused, unless someone can figure this out for me. 
Here's what started this all: next to my sink I have a GFI duplex outlet with a green indicator LED in the upper right, on a 20A breaker; the finishing plate is cracked beneath it, the lower left of the outlet is sunken in, and there's char in the lower left T-slot; it always worked fine, tested monthly. 
i only have a microwave plugged into it when I'm home; when I go out I unplug it (cause the outlet looks funny)  A week ago I plugged in the mic and I heard a slight pop and think I saw a spark, but the GFCI and breaker didn't trip.  The mic wasn't working but the outlet LED was still on. I pressed the test button and reset it a few times and the LED would still come on but the mic didn't work. 
A couple of days ago I got the time to test the non-GFCI outlet on the counter upstream of it on the same breaker.  It worked ok.  When I incorrectly used my multimeter on THAT outlet it blew the multimeter fuse.  but I not knowing this, kept testing it, and the rest of the house, and getting the ~6V readings, but when testing the aforementioned GFCI outlet, I would get 0.1V (almost zero), which made since since the mic wouldn't work.
Ok, now the confusing part: I just replaced the multimeter fuse and tested the outlet upstream from the GFCI outlet and it was reading 114V.  THEN, I reset the GFCI outlet that wasn't working a few days ago, and it said around 114V as well???  Then I plugged in the mic and it worked???  I took a piss and got a drink and tested both outlets again ten min later and they both read around 118V?

So here we go gentlemen; is there an explanation for the following:
1) how could the GFCI outlet pop and spark but not trip the GFCI mechanism or the breaker?
2) how could the mic not have worked in the outlet, but the GFCI outlet indicator LED was still on?
3) how could the mic in the outlet have NOT been working after the pop/spark, and then suddenly BE working four days later?
4) why would the two outlets that are the only outlets on the 20A breaker, with nothing plugged into them, read 114V and then 118V ten min later?
5) if the answer to "4" above is because other things in the house going on/off causes the flux, does it indicate I still have a problem with the feeder, breaker, or anything else in the system?

I went into the detail so you guys would still help me and not blow me off, thinking I'm a dope who sent you on a wild goose chase since the initial question was related to me blowing the fuse in the multi meter.  So if you could answer the questions above, that would be awesome, cause I'm still not in the clear on this issue.
Big mahalos !!!  Seriously!

I will take a stab at it.

1) The mic plug in the outlet may not have made contact with the outlet, therefore, creating the pop/spark you heard/saw when you turned it on.  I would recommend replacing the outlet since there is charring and it is loose.  The GFI or breaker will not activate since no ground fault (short to ground from the hot terminal) nor the current draw exceeded the 15 or 20 amps on breaker.
2) No good connection in the outlet.
3) Now have good connection after unplugging then plugging.
4) Voltage will fluctuate depending on the load on the electrical grid, not necessarily within your home.  That is why high end electronic equipment should be plugged in to a line conditioner (keeps the voltage clean & steady).  Downtown Honolulu is notorious for having power fluctuations.
5) What about the dimming house lights when you turn on your high powered appliances?  Only suggested the feeder size since you mentioned house lights dimmed when you activate your high powered appliances.

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2013, 10:09:50 PM »

I will take a stab at it.

1) The mic plug in the outlet may not have made contact with the outlet, therefore, creating the pop/spark you heard/saw when you turned it on.  I would recommend replacing the outlet since there is charring and it is loose.  The GFI or breaker will not activate since no ground fault (short to ground from the hot terminal) nor the current draw exceeded the 15 or 20 amps on breaker.
2) No good connection in the outlet.
3) Now have good connection after unplugging then plugging.
4) Voltage will fluctuate depending on the load on the electrical grid, not necessarily within your home.  That is why high end electronic equipment should be plugged in to a line conditioner (keeps the voltage clean & steady).  Downtown Honolulu is notorious for having power fluctuations.
5) What about the dimming house lights when you turn on your high powered appliances?  Only suggested the feeder size since you mentioned house lights dimmed when you activate your high powered appliances.
Thanks for answering the questions so clearly.  When I make the time, maybe when I replace the suspect GFI outlet in the kitchen, I'll take the cover off the breaker panel,and see what size the line is coming into the box, this way I can at least rule out that being insufficient.......thanks again!
:shaka:

wirecounter

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2013, 10:13:02 PM »
Glad I could help.

I would use a power strip instead of unplugging & plugging in the microwave.  Just flip the switch.

Also, remember to turn off the breaker before working on replacing the plug.

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2013, 10:16:23 PM »
Yeah man.....will do. I actually ran a power strip to the upstream outlet and tripped the test button on the sink gfi to kill it, for whatever that's worth.  So ill be using the power strip with the mic until I replace that outlet.....
Mahalo hou!

Haoleb

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2013, 04:43:47 PM »


So here we go gentlemen; is there an explanation for the following:
1) how could the GFCI outlet pop and spark but not trip the GFCI mechanism or the breaker?
2) how could the mic not have worked in the outlet, but the GFCI outlet indicator LED was still on?
3) how could the mic in the outlet have NOT been working after the pop/spark, and then suddenly BE working four days later?
4) why would the two outlets that are the only outlets on the 20A breaker, with nothing plugged into them, read 114V and then 118V ten min later?
5) if the answer to "4" above is because other things in the house going on/off causes the flux, does it indicate I still have a problem with the feeder, breaker, or anything else in the system?


1) sometimes you will get a spark and a small pop when you plug in certain items. My cordless drill battery charger does it every single time. if you are constantly plugging in and unplugging the microwave it could happen. If the contacts in the outlet are so worn they no longer have good contact pressure this will also cause arching which will lead to this char you are talking about and it will also char your plug and create little tiny weld spots. The arching that occurs when you plug something in is not a ground fault so it would not trip the outlet.

2) Are you sure the light means it is ok? some GFCI outlets only have a light on them when they are tripped... although not usually green. Anyway it could be you just did not have a good connection or something.. who knows.

3) Again maybe just not a good connection or faulty outlet. or faulty plug on your microwave with an intermittent connection.

4/5) this is pretty normal to see. Especially if you live in an area with high loads on your shared powerline and you most likely share a transformer with a few neighbors as well. Ive lived in places that would go from 110vac during the day to 120-125vac at night. It does not mean you have undersized wiring just a fact of life with an overtaxed power grid.  Your meter probably has some error in it as well, cheap meters are not entirely accurate to begin with.

The way your kitchen plugs should have been wired is that the first wire from the breaker goes to the GFCI outlet which will have an input and an output, what this does is allows all the rest of the plugs to also be protected but they do not have to be GFCI outlets themselves. So then the output from the GFCI would go to the next receptacle and so on. (the other outlets would not have a true in and out they just have two screws on each side)

I would suggest just replace the GFCI outlet with a new one, paying attention to how it is wired as there is an in and out just like I mentioned.

Kanakamaoli23

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2013, 07:20:59 PM »
+1

the in and out he is referring to will be marking by the words line and load. line will be the wire coming from the breaker and load will be the wire going to the next outlet in the chain.

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2013, 07:24:10 PM »

1) sometimes you will get a spark and a small pop when you plug in certain items. My cordless drill battery charger does it every single time. if you are constantly plugging in and unplugging the microwave it could happen. If the contacts in the outlet are so worn they no longer have good contact pressure this will also cause arching which will lead to this char you are talking about and it will also char your plug and create little tiny weld spots. The arching that occurs when you plug something in is not a ground fault so it would not trip the outlet.

2) Are you sure the light means it is ok? some GFCI outlets only have a light on them when they are tripped... although not usually green. Anyway it could be you just did not have a good connection or something.. who knows.

3) Again maybe just not a good connection or faulty outlet. or faulty plug on your microwave with an intermittent connection.

4/5) this is pretty normal to see. Especially if you live in an area with high loads on your shared powerline and you most likely share a transformer with a few neighbors as well. Ive lived in places that would go from 110vac during the day to 120-125vac at night. It does not mean you have undersized wiring just a fact of life with an overtaxed power grid.  Your meter probably has some error in it as well, cheap meters are not entirely accurate to begin with.

The way your kitchen plugs should have been wired is that the first wire from the breaker goes to the GFCI outlet which will have an input and an output, what this does is allows all the rest of the plugs to also be protected but they do not have to be GFCI outlets themselves. So then the output from the GFCI would go to the next receptacle and so on. (the other outlets would not have a true in and out they just have two screws on each side)

I would suggest just replace the GFCI outlet with a new one, paying attention to how it is wired as there is an in and out just like I mentioned.
Wow. Great info. Thanks!
Re: the gfi indicator light, I confirmed the light is on when the outlet is hot, and it goes off when its tripped, and it is green.
Re: the in/out wiring of the gfi and proper setup, the corner-cutter that wired the house pointlessly wired the kitchen suboptimally.
IOW, there are gfi outlets on either side of the sink, and another counter outlet on either side of the sink - further away from the sink. And both sets of outlets are on separate breakers.
But the left and right outlets furthest from the sink are NOT wired/controlled by the output of the gfi's NEXT to the sink!?!   
you believe that? i mean there is cutting corners and then theres just plain laziness, and not wiring the non gfi counter outlets down stream from the gfi's is just friggin pointless and lazy cause the wood frame was bare so it would not have taken any more effort to do things ideally! 
So i dont know if the distant outlet was wired first or the gfi was wired first but the output of it wasnt used to wire the distant outlet. I guess i'll see when i open up that suspect sink outlet and see if the output is being used.
So I obviously have to watch out for wet counters/floors when working with anything plugged into the two non gfi counter outlets.
Thanks for all the info man!
:shaka:

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2013, 07:28:25 PM »

+1

the in and out he is referring to will be marking by the words line and load. line will be the wire coming from the breaker and load will be the wire going to the next outlet in the chain.
Ah ok. So if the there is nothing on the load marked side, then that means that outlet is the last one in the chain, right?  Cause there's only two on that breaker, and the distant non gfi outlet isn't controlled by the sink gfi one.......so....I guess I just answered my own question?

Haoleb

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2013, 08:23:42 PM »
Ah ok. So if the there is nothing on the load marked side, then that means that outlet is the last one in the chain, right?  Cause there's only two on that breaker, and the distant non gfi outlet isn't controlled by the sink gfi one.......so....I guess I just answered my own question?

What you could do if the GFCI outlet is the last one in the chain, Is just put the GFI where the other outlet is located at and just switch them. This will involve taking out the outlet and removing the wires and then testing them to see which one goes where but.. at least all of your kitchen plugs would be protected.

It is not uncommon to see laziness in residential construction IMO. We are currently finishing a remodel job and in just one small bathroom I found three separate places where someone spliced the romex together with no box and just left it hanging in the wall. I shudder to think what the rest of the house is like. Some people just do not take any pride in their work. I hate the job I am doing right now but I still take pride in my work.

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2013, 09:31:21 PM »

What you could do if the GFCI outlet is the last one in the chain, Is just put the GFI where the other outlet is located at and just switch them. This will involve taking out the outlet and removing the wires and then testing them to see which one goes where but.. at least all of your kitchen plugs would be protected.

It is not uncommon to see laziness in residential construction IMO. We are currently finishing a remodel job and in just one small bathroom I found three separate places where someone spliced the romex together with no box and just left it hanging in the wall. I shudder to think what the rest of the house is like. Some people just do not take any pride in their work. I hate the job I am doing right now but I still take pride in my work.
Yeah that's a good idea. I don't mind the extra time since im gonna be taking out one of the outlets anyway; plus its cheaper than buying a new gfi outlet anyways, which is the only other alternative to simply leaving it non gfi - which I don't want to do. And it is sooo true about some people not taking pride in their work. You see the result of that in all aspects of home construction. But of course they would never cut corners or go lazy if they were working on their home......so they're always conscious of doing a shit job whenever they do it - that I'm sure of.
Thanks!!

Kanakamaoli23

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2013, 09:44:39 PM »
you could also just install a GFCI breaker for the kitchen circuits. probably a little easier and less work than swwitching the two outlet locations. if you remove the gfci and it does not have any wiring attached to the load side, that means that no other outlet is protected by that gfci

Kanakamaoli23

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2013, 09:47:37 PM »
i have noticed that you only get electricians who cut corners if you hire unlicensed guys because the licensed ones are too expensive. a licensed individual would never leave a junction inside of a wall, without being in an enclosure because we put our license on the line every time we do a job. if you are unlicensed, you are also unliable in the event of something like a fire. moral of the story, pay the extra dime for the licensed guy and avoid a whole host of issues down the line! :shaka:

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2013, 10:29:12 PM »

i have noticed that you only get electricians who cut corners if you hire unlicensed guys because the licensed ones are too expensive. a licensed individual would never leave a junction inside of a wall, without being in an enclosure because we put our license on the line every time we do a job. if you are unlicensed, you are also unliable in the event of something like a fire. moral of the story, pay the extra dime for the licensed guy and avoid a whole host of issues down the line! :shaka:
I didn't think of that. I guess it wouldn't be the licensed guys doin shit jobs. At least it would be unlikely. Well I know the contractors name who had this house built and when the building craze was peaking, he was cranking out houses a dozen ongoing at once, like he was slinging hotdogs out of a cart in Times Square!
Electric, plumbing, carpentry; all sorts of mismatched shit and what looks like factory seconds. I'd shoe this guy in da grapes if I ever met him!  Hard lesson learned!

Darmok and Jalad @Tanagra

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2013, 11:15:29 PM »
i have noticed that you only get electricians who cut corners if you hire unlicensed guys because the licensed ones are too expensive. a licensed individual would never leave a junction inside of a wall, without being in an enclosure because we put our license on the line every time we do a job. if you are unlicensed, you are also unliable in the event of something like a fire. moral of the story, pay the extra dime for the licensed guy and avoid a whole host of issues down the line! :shaka:

I wish that were the whole truth.  Unfortunately, there are electricians who are licensed and in business 20 years that sometimes, for whatever reason, do crappy work.

I had the power in the living room just stop working.  Tried to troubleshoot, and couldn't find the cause.  So, I contacted my home warranty company who contacted this electrician (I'll not give the name).  This guy first made me remove my ceiling paint because he wanted to cut holes in the ceiling to trace the trouble.  I had to pay a HAZMAT company to test for asbestos then remove it according to federal and state safety and health regs.  Apparently that 1970's blown "popcorn" ceiling stuff did have asbestos!

After all that, still can't find the electrical issue.  He told the warranty company he needed to rewire the whole circuit because the ALUMINUM WIRE can't stay and be within code.  Anything he fixed had to meet code, and he couldn't fix the problem without bypassing that wire and just running copper.. 

So, after a month waiting for approval, I called the guy, and he has basically forgotten to check with the warranty people!  Called me back next day and said the work was approved.

Scheduled the repair for a Friday afternoon.  He and his son, maybe 20-something, came about 12:30, and they were gone when I came home at 3:00.  Basically, they patched in the power from another circuit, ran a 2-inch wide wooden conduit strip down my living room wall to hide the spliced wire, replaced an outlet in a bedroom using sub-par parts (aluminum wiring needs special parts or it's a fire hazard), and never bothered to explain why the circuit wasn't replaced!  So I basically now have TWO circuits combined on ONE breaker with the neutral still running on the old breaker.  He only ran a connection to the hot wire of the living room circuit!

Warranty company said if I wasn't happy they would send him out to try again, but they can't send a different person for the same job.  I filed a lengthy, detailed complaint and canceled my warranty.  When the salesman called to try and get me to renew again, I talked his ear off, too!  I'm sure that company couldn't care less about my $350 a year.

Why this guy didn't do the work that was authorized is beyond me.  He was set for making some good money, was going to fix my problem after making me wait over a month and remove my ceiling, and be a hero.  Instead, I was totally pissed!

I sat down that night, traced out the problem (since I wanted to fix his work, too, so my house didn't catch fire), and I found the original reason for the power outage.  The line running around the living room went under the front door threshold.  It was bent at an acute angle on one side of the doorway as it came back up into the room from outside beneath the frame of the house.  Over time, that bend must have heated and finally caused the wire to break.  So, I replaced the wire under the doorway with copper, and it's been fine for years now!

I hate having to bring strangers into the house to fix anything. This nightmare made the felling that much worse for every other repair!

Moral of the story:  even licensed and experienced professionals don't always do professional work!
"... the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men."
--Justice Louis D. Brandeis

ButtNutt

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2013, 11:26:46 PM »

I wish that were the whole truth.  Unfortunately, there are electricians who are licensed and in business 20 years that sometimes, for whatever reason, do crappy work.

I had the power in the living room just stop working.  Tried to troubleshoot, and couldn't find the cause.  So, I contacted my home warranty company who contacted this electrician (I'll not give the name).  This guy first made me remove my ceiling paint because he wanted to cut holes in the ceiling to trace the trouble.  I had to pay a HAZMAT company to test for asbestos then remove it according to federal and state safety and health regs.  Apparently that 1970's blown "popcorn" ceiling stuff did have asbestos!

After all that, still can't find the electrical issue.  He told the warranty company he needed to rewire the whole circuit because the ALUMINUM WIRE can't stay and be within code.  Anything he fixed had to meet code, and he couldn't fix the problem without bypassing that wire and just running copper.. 

So, after a month waiting for approval, I called the guy, and he has basically forgotten to check with the warranty people!  Called me back next day and said the work was approved.

Scheduled the repair for a Friday afternoon.  He and his son, maybe 20-something, came about 12:30, and they were gone when I came home at 3:00.  Basically, they patched in the power from another circuit, ran a 2-inch wide wooden conduit strip down my living room wall to hide the spliced wire, replaced an outlet in a bedroom using sub-par parts (aluminum wiring needs special parts or it's a fire hazard), and never bothered to explain why the circuit wasn't replaced!  So I basically now have TWO circuits combined on ONE breaker with the neutral still running on the old breaker.  He only ran a connection to the hot wire of the living room circuit!

Warranty company said if I wasn't happy they would send him out to try again, but they can't send a different person for the same job.  I filed a lengthy, detailed complaint and canceled my warranty.  When the salesman called to try and get me to renew again, I talked his ear off, too!  I'm sure that company couldn't care less about my $350 a year.

Why this guy didn't do the work that was authorized is beyond me.  He was set for making some good money, was going to fix my problem after making me wait over a month and remove my ceiling, and be a hero.  Instead, I was totally pissed!

I sat down that night, traced out the problem (since I wanted to fix his work, too, so my house didn't catch fire), and I found the original reason for the power outage.  The line running around the living room went under the front door threshold.  It was bent at an acute angle on one side of the doorway as it came back up into the room from outside beneath the frame of the house.  Over time, that bend must have heated and finally caused the wire to break.  So, I replaced the wire under the doorway with copper, and it's been fine for years now!

I hate having to bring strangers into the house to fix anything. This nightmare made the felling that much worse for every other repair!

Moral of the story:  even licensed and experienced professionals don't always do professional work!
Daammmn!  That's a horrible story. Did you ever call the better business bureau or the dept of consumer affairs, or whatever appropriate agency?  Cause I did that a couple of times when the business left me no choice. And it sounds like your experience was worth reporting.  I guess since you never know what type of service you're going to get, it's best to do jobs on your own within safety limits.













Darmok and Jalad @Tanagra

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2013, 11:36:55 PM »
Daammmn!  That's a horrible story. Did you ever call the better business bureau or the dept of consumer affairs, or whatever appropriate agency?  Cause I did that a couple of times when the business left me no choice. And it sounds like your experience was worth reporting.  I guess since you never know what type of service you're going to get, it's best to do jobs on your own within safety limits.

No reporting.  My contract was with the warranty company.  He was only their local contractor.  I made sure they understood he was never going to enter by home again, and if the company didn't send someone else, I was canceling my service with them.  It was too complicated to figure out who I should report and where.  I was just out the $50 service call fee, plus the time and materials doing the job myself.  My only remedy was to let the same guy back in to fix it right.  I really didn't think he could be trusted at that point.  Live and learn!

I'm not a bad electrician for the things I've needed.  Just that one time I figured, "This power problem is taking longer to figure out than I hoped.  I'll save myself some time and headaches, since Christmas is 2 weeks away, and use this warranty I paid for.  This is, after all why I have it!"   :grrr:
"... the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men."
--Justice Louis D. Brandeis

Kanakamaoli23

Re: Is there an electrician in the house?
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2013, 10:42:58 PM »
There are horror stories out there from licensed people, this is very true. But having the ability to report them to the DCCA is worth the money. If Joe the electrician comes to your house and causes a fire, good luck getting him to help cover the damages. At least if the person is doing work with a license you have some information about the guy ie his license number.