For decades there have been occasional stories from "mountain men" of bullets fired into frozen lakes and rivers which just sat there on the ice spinning away.  For the most part, these stories were met with disdain and derision, since it sounded impossible. 

I had even heard about that myself from a guy who had a cabin up near one of the high lakes here in Colorado, and he'd go up there for ice fishing in the wintertime and said he had done it.

I thought that was a bunch of BS, but then Youtube came along and many people have made videos of this rather strange behavior of bullets --enough that there is little doubt that it actually happens. 

There are no hidden electromagnets involved, no strings, no wires, no spinning of the bullets by hand, no trick photography.  As far as I know, nobody really seems to have an explanations as to why the bullets don't just punch their way through the ice, or ricochet away into the distance, but some don't, and just sit there undamaged and spin.  It's even true of rifle bullets. 

Bear in mind that the RPMs involved in bullet spin are very high, anywhere from, say, 30,000 RPM out of handguns up to a quarter million RPM for some rifle bullets.

I figured you folks might appreciate some of these videos.





Yes, it even happens in foreign countries:



Back to ;Murica:



Terry, 230RN

For what it's worth, Mythbusters proved it.

 ^ True.  Here's the vid, but it's pretty long and you have to wait for a really really hot day in Hawaii to watch it, so I didn't post the link...

I believe everything I see on YouTube! 

Well, there's the matter of "a preponderance of  the evidence," Tom_G.

As I mentioned, I heard about this back in the mid-sixties from a guy who said he had done it.  He used to go ice-fishing on the lake near his cabin, and said he wanted to see if he could shoot a starter hole in the ice to  bore or saw out for a hole for his fishing line, I forget which.

Anyhow, he said he shot a couple of pistol bullets into the ice and in the silence of the middle of a lake, he heard this odd buzzing noise and tracked it down to a spinning bullet sitting point down on the ice.

I thought he was bullshitting me, but I didn't say anything negative, just something noncommital.

Over the years since then I had heard some other tales like this, but with second-hand reporting, so I put it down to "sitting-around-the-cracker-barrel-in-the-General-Store" type of old-timer "yarns."

When I first spotted a Youtube vid on it a couple of years ago, I thought it was BS again, and started to hypothesize about how the fraud might be perpetrated (electromagnet coils buried under the ice and high-speed motors and whatnot.)

But as others picked up on the phenomenon and repeated it for themselves in different situations, with the camera rolling from firing the shot to closeups of the bullet, and in different spots on the ice, I figured that even with careful (and expensive) Hollywood-type special effects, that was one hell of a fraud.

The clincher for me was I saw one video where a guy repeated the phenomenon in a frozen puddle in the middle of some farm-type tire tracks.  The rest of the field had mostly thawed, there was little snow or ice around, so this guy had just gone ahead and used the still-frozen puddle to repeat it.

If it's a fraud, I find it hard to believe that the spin could be caused by anything other than the rifling from a gun, unless these folks carried high speed motors out to the lakes (and puddles) to spin the bullets and drop them on the ice.  Even a typical 9mm bullet spins at around 80,000 RPM.  A 7.62x39 bullet will spin above 170,000 RPM.

Show me the motor.  Show me the electromagnetic coils.

And with everybody who has the opportunity going out to a frozen lake and puddle to successfully try it out, as I say, the preponderance of evidence has convinced me.

I'm willing to be called a fool if indeed it is all fake, and while the great Carl Sagan once said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," I submit that at this point, the "extraordinary claim" is that it's a fake, and that the "extraordinary evidence" that it actually happens has already been established. 

And if he were still around, I'd apologize to that old ice-fishing pharte who first mentioned it to me as a first-hand experience.

Terry

ETA (Mythbusters "Aftershow" on the spinning bullets):

Show me the motor.  Show me the electromagnetic coils.

Now, notice what I said in my post.  I didn't assert that the bullet-spinning myth was either true or false, I just don't accept YouTube as proof.

If I were going to fake this, I would use garden-variety animation and motion tracking software.  Apple's Motion, Adobe's After Effects, etc.  So, while I cannot show you items which weren't used in making fakes (Electromagnetic coils?  On copper and lead??), I can show you easily-available technology which could produce results every bit as real as what has been posted so far.  I mean, look at the water video.  Really look at it.  Watch it 10 times in a row on fullscreen.  It looks good.  The reflections, refractions, and distortions on the water column look real.  The splash looks real.  Hell, the point of contact with his fingers looks real. 

Now, notice what I said in my post.  I didn't assert that the bullet-spinning myth was either true or false, I just don't accept YouTube as proof.

If I were going to fake this, I would use garden-variety animation and motion tracking software.  Apple's Motion, Adobe's After Effects, etc.  So, while I cannot show you items which weren't used in making fakes (Electromagnetic coils?  On copper and lead??), I can show you easily-available technology which could produce results every bit as real as what has been posted so far.  I mean, look at the water video.  Really look at it.  Watch it 10 times in a row on fullscreen.  It looks good.  The reflections, refractions, and distortions on the water column look real.  The splash looks real.  Hell, the point of contact with his fingers looks real.

Would you believe an actual Myth Busters experiment??

Spinning Ice Bullets

A bullet fired into the surface of a frozen lake can spin like a top on impact. Inspired by a viral video.

STATUS:  Confirmed

The testing for this myth began during the summer, with Tory building a rig to hold a pistol at any desired angle and Kari checking the video to work out the geometry of the shot. The Build Team then laid down blocks of ice and dry ice on a rifle range to simulate the frozen lake and tried several shots with a Glock 9 mm pistol. Direct hits left bullets embedded in the ice, while shallow ricochets left the team unable to find the bullets at all.

After re-checking their own footage, the team heard a sound that might have been a spinning bullet. Once winter came, they visited Caples Lake in the Sierra Nevada and dug out a target area on its frozen surface for further work. Testing gave no results until they aimed at the center of their target site, allowing for a backward ricochet instead of a forward one. The team found the bullets from these last tests to be spinning in place on their side, leading them to declare the myth confirmed.

Just in case you didn't watch the video posted earlier in this thread

Would you believe an actual Myth Busters experiment??

Just in case you didn't watch the video posted earlier in this thread

Why does no one read what I write?

Funny thing about MythBusters... it exists outside of YouTube. 

Why does no one read what I write?

Funny thing about MythBusters... it exists outside of YouTube.

Huh?  You write something, Tom?  Tom?

 

Tom_G:

You don't necessarily need iron to create a motoring effect.  Eddy currents in non-magnetic materials have been used to develop attractive and repulsive magnetic forces in these non-magnetic materials sufficient to develop a rotative force.  An example would be the old-time electric meters which have aluminum discs as the rotor or armature:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6111/6258069833_de4cf3149c_z.jpg

I also once had a fish tank air pump which worked on this principle.  A aluminum disc, rotated by the 50-60 Hz mains power, cranked a piston to pump the air into the tank. 

Many other examples abound of motion created in non-magnetic materials, such as the pumping effect of hydro-magnetic pumps with no moving parts, which move electrically-conducting fluids through pipes.  In fact, in most instances, the effect will not occur if ferromagnetic materials are used.

I only mentioned "coils and wires" because some attempted debunkers tried to posit "coils and wires" to produce this effect.  It would be highly impractical to arrange such coils and wires in the circumstances shown in many of the videos, let alone power them.

I take a similar postion with respect to faking the effects with sophisticated image and motion picture editing.  While I recognise that this is possible to do by highly motivated and sophisticated hoaxters, once again, I find it highly improbable that all of these folks have spent the time and effort to fake them.

Thus, I came to my stated conclusion that the preponderance of evidence indicates that the effect is real.

I also note one "faker" of the water-glass experiment froze the water in the glass and shattered it with a hammer to show this, which was highly amusing.

However, without actually experimenting with this particular phenomenon, I can almost "see" how the effect might be real.  Water surface tension, caused by the dipolar nature of the water  molecule, is quite substantial, and I can almost see how rapid spinning of the container might align these molecules electrostatically, such that the surface tension forces might hold the mass of water together for a short time. 

Breaking the tension by either touching the surface, [/B]or[/B] by bringing another charged item (such as one's finger) close to the surface might be sufficient to break the surface tension and cause the structure to collapse.

You might note that occasionally, when small water drops are splashed on the surface of standing still water, instead of merging with the surface, the drops maintain their integrity and just sit there as little spheres on the standing water.  This is due to the strong surface tension of the droplets, and of the surface itself.

Note that I remain uncommitted as to whether the water-cup phenomenon is "real" or "faked," and await further information on it.  At this point, I am merely stating that at least with small-scale personal observation, I can almost "see" how it might happen when scaled up.

I, too, like the Thomas of the New Testament, am a born "doubter," and I, too, like the Apostle "Doubting Thomas," frequently require visual and manual demonstration to prove that "Christ's wounds" were real.  But in this case of the spinning bullets, I've seen enough.  Perhaps I'm a fool and a tool, perhaps not.

Terry, 230RN

  Perhaps I'm a fool and a tool, perhaps not.

I am drawing blood from biting my tongue so hard.

Dude, seriously, I have never (and that means 47 years, 8 months, and 23 days) met someone so bound and determined to miss my point.  So only one of two possibilities remain.
1.  You are my intellectual antipode.  In which case, we should have a beer.
2.  You are trolling me.  In which case, you are wasting your time on far too easy a target, and we should have a beer.

You're arguing with me about whether or not the effect is real.  I have carefully, deliberately, purposefully avoided ever once even insinuating whether or not I hold a belief in that matter. 

  While I recognise that this is possible to do by highly motivated and sophisticated hoaxters, once again, I find it highly improbable that all of these folks have spent the time and effort to fake them.

What you don't seem to realize is how easy this fakery is, and how many people possess the fairly limited skillset needed to perpetrate it.  It's not much more difficult than picking up a bullet and using a slingshot to put it through a window would be.  Animation and compositing of this level is taught in 200 level college classes.  It is EASY with modern technology.  A comprehensive license for every program Adobe makes costs a college student, or a college professor, $20/month.  And that's if they choose to play legally! 

Since what I consider to be obvious seems to escape some readers, let me be explicit:
I am not opining on whether or not spinning bullet on ice occur.  I am, however, opining that no "evidence" posted on YouTube, without corroboration on external sources, will convince me that what I am seeing is more than a competent (and I emphasize merely competent) user of contemporary technology could easily achieve with a home computer. 

Bother to ask me what I believe, if it's important to you. 

Oh, and in case it has escaped attention, being "between the lines,"
230RN, we should have a beer!  I explicitly, publicly, and without reservation offer to pick up the fucking tab.  Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday evening work for me.

Huh?  You write something, Tom?  Tom?

 

A challenge like this can only be answered on the field of honor!  M1 carbines at 25 paces!!! 

A challenge like this can only be answered on the field of honor!  M1 carbines at 25 paces!!!

Tom?  Hello??  Is this thing on?     

If an M1 is required, then I'll have to pass!!  I have only my Mosin-Nagant and AK-47 in that caliber class.

 

I am drawing blood from biting my tongue so hard.

Dude, seriously, I have never (and that means 47 years, 8 months, and 23 days) met someone so bound and determined to miss my point.  So only one of two possibilities remain.
1.  You are my intellectual antipode.  In which case, we should have a beer.
2.  You are trolling me.  In which case, you are wasting your time on far too easy a target, and we should have a beer.

You're arguing with me about whether or not the effect is real.  I have carefully, deliberately, purposefully avoided ever once even insinuating whether or not I hold a belief in that matter. 

What you don't seem to realize is how easy this fakery is, and how many people possess the fairly limited skillset needed to perpetrate it.  It's not much more difficult than picking up a bullet and using a slingshot to put it through a window would be.  Animation and compositing of this level is taught in 200 level college classes.  It is EASY with modern technology.  A comprehensive license for every program Adobe makes costs a college student, or a college professor, $20/month.  And that's if they choose to play legally! 

Since what I consider to be obvious seems to escape some readers, let me be explicit:
I am not opining on whether or not spinning bullet on ice occur.  I am, however, opining that no "evidence" posted on YouTube, without corroboration on external sources, will convince me that what I am seeing is more than a competent (and I emphasize merely competent) user of contemporary technology could easily achieve with a home computer. 

Bother to ask me what I believe, if it's important to you. 

Oh, and in case it has escaped attention, being "between the lines,"
230RN, we should have a beer!  I explicitly, publicly, and without reservation offer to pick up the fucking tab.  Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday evening work for me.

tom, 230 lives in the land of coors
i'll have a beer with you on friday in his place

Tom?  Hello??  Is this thing on?     

If an M1 is required, then I'll have to pass!!  I have only my Mosin-Nagant and AK-47 in that caliber class.

 

REAL men have M1 carbines!   

tom, 230 lives in the land of coors
i'll have a beer with you on friday in his place

If 230RN publicly gives you his proxy, then I can accept.

REAL men have M1 carbines!   

Somebody didn't get that memo! 

Somebody didn't get that memo! 

All I can say is.... "Compensating much???"

And before anyone takes offense, thinking I'm implying something about a soldier's manliness, muzzlebrakes are sometimes (albeit imprecisely) also referred to as compensators. 

Ha ha, OK.  Neither of my M1 Carbines is reliable enough for serious work, and I hereby give my beer  proxy to Macsak.



Terry, 230rn