Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii (Read 71088 times)

Dblnaknak

Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2014, 08:11:45 PM »
I really don't have anything useful to add to this conversation
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 08:19:28 PM by 2aHawaii »

338KID

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #101 on: February 19, 2014, 08:15:45 PM »
It's like the desperate housewives of 2ahawaii . . :popcorn:
Fast is fine , accuracy is final

pj_benn

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #102 on: February 19, 2014, 08:20:53 PM »
   :rofl:

Dblnaknak

Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #103 on: February 19, 2014, 08:23:41 PM »
I really don't have anything useful to add to this conversation

Haha. I guess the moderator deleted my original post and wrote this. Sad! I guess there no free speech in this forum anymore.

ImKu

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #104 on: February 19, 2014, 08:38:56 PM »
Or your utter disrespect for vets and active duty was a disgrace to anyone that embraces this forum.  Don't know how you have the ability to discredit ones military credentials without serving.  Second hand info doesn't account for much.
The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.
- Bhagavad Gita

ren

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2014, 08:44:44 PM »
Again, I say we need more black women.
If these honeys were there at the bench, the moke wouldn't say sh!t





badunkadunkdunk! O0 :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
Deeds Not Words

Dblnaknak

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2014, 08:53:04 PM »

Or your utter disrespect for vets and active duty was a disgrace to anyone that embraces this forum.  Don't know how you have the ability to discredit ones military credentials without serving.  Second hand info doesn't account for much.

Please. You don't know shit. I have served 10 years of active duty and 8 of national guard service. I'm calling him out on his bullshit.

pj_benn

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2014, 08:56:11 PM »
Or your utter disrespect for vets and active duty was a disgrace to anyone that embraces this forum.  Don't know how you have the ability to discredit ones military credentials without serving.  Second hand info doesn't account for much.

There are vets just as bad if not worse than the guy in the ops vid. I embrace this forum and I didn't see anything wrong with dbls post. I'm a combat vet... If discredit someone elses service are you ok with it cause I've served? It's cool for q to shit all over hpd/cops without edits tho yeah? And honestly I don't care for cops in general

Dblnaknak

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2014, 09:01:00 PM »
I'll repost what wrote later in case anyone want to read it.

BUD

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2014, 09:02:02 PM »
I think this thread has lost it's value as an educational tool and turned into a pissing match.  :stopjack:
It is what it is.

pj_benn

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #110 on: February 19, 2014, 09:07:26 PM »
I think this thread has lost it's value as an educational tool and turned into a pissing match.  :stopjack:
Lol this thread was never intended to be educational. It's serving it's Intended purpose

HiCarry

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #111 on: February 19, 2014, 09:09:44 PM »
Lol we are giving this guy a lot of attention that he don't deserve. I wouldn't pull out a middle finger on this chump . If he scares  you to pull out a weapon then it's no wonder your on a 2a forum . The only thing that looks threatening is probably his breath . There's nothing a good stiff jab followed by a right hook / right upper cut can't handle in this situation. It's a pit bull affect.  He'll bark but you must not fear his bite . If you do your already bitten.
But what if the guy in the video wasn't skilled in striking? Or had a hidden disability, like heart disease, asthma, or back problems that precluded him from engaging in such physical endeavors?

IMHO I think there are valid points (generally speaking)on both sides of this discussion and that each one trying to persuade the others (and hence the readers of this forum) should try to do so with facts and case law instead of vague references to super secret training or unstated "professional" experiences. There may be differing opinions on what may, or may not, constitute legitimate use of deadly force against an unarmed individual and the goal should be to educate yourself on different circumstances so that you are prepared in the event you have to make those decisions in the heat of a very stressful situation. The trier of facts, aided by the clarity of 20/20 hindsight, be it a jury or a judge, will view each circumstance differently and use a reasonable man standard to weigh the evidence and determine whether or not the use of deadly force was appropriate.  That being said, based on the training I have had and the research I have done, I would say that in this particular case there wasn't a need to pull out a gun on the obnoxious punk...yet. But I can also see how it could have escalated to that point or that another individual, especially someone unfamiliar with the "local culture," or who was smaller or less capable of some hand-to-hand defense, might have evaluated the situation differently and legitimately felt compelled to use a firearm. 

I agree that if you can leave, do so. Ego and machismo will not look good in retrospect while trying to defend your actions in court. I can also see the possibility that as you tried to leave, precisely because you wanted to avoid further confrontation and escalation, that Mr. We Hit Women and Dogs All The Time, may have become even more infuriated and tried to stop you. Recall that he told the guy to sit down. He could have interpreted trying to leave as a blatant disregard of his "command" and responded by escalating the situation.

I disagree that you cannot legally justify hitting someone preemptively based on your perceived risk of danger. As Justice Holms, in Brown v. United States said, "Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." If you are cornered by someone like this, or can't leave because doing so would place others, such as your wife or girlfriend, in jeopardy, and he is increasingly encroaching on your "space" and you feel his attack may escalate soon, there is nothing that says you cannot strike first. Continuing your attack after the threat was eliminated would probably be deemed unwarranted, but I doubt several quick and continuous blows to disable the attacker would be seen as unjustified. The same principle can be applied to the use of a firearm. You need not wait until your attacker has pulled his gun, or his knife, or even hit you, depending on the circumstances, before you present your firearm. You also don't have to actually shoot once your gun "clears leather" either. If producing your firearm causes the assailant to stop his attack and backs away, shooting him would probably be seen as unjustified.

If you had other options, like pepper spray, and tried to use it but ultimately had to use your gun, it would probably be viewed in a positive light.

The bottom line is, IMHO, is that these discussions become more of a "I'm right and you're not" rather than an opportunity to learn from others. Even in the clarity of hindsight most self defense cases are shades of grey, not a clear cut, black and white case. To claim that it is always wrong to strike preemptively or that is never appropriate to shoot an unarmed person clearly shows either how little you know about the realities of self defense, or that your ego demands you always be correct. Regardless, it sheds little light on what is a complex, often nuanced situations.

It would be nice, as I said earlier, if positions and arguments could be based more on fact and case law, and that if one chooses to invoke the "in my experience" argument rather than in the aforementioned manner, that at the very least that experience was clearly stated so that the reader could evaluate the validity of said opinion themselves.

By no means an exhaustive or complete treatise on self defense, but an interesting read.....Oh, and the standard disclaimer: IANAL, this is not legal advice and represents my opinions only....
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/Self-Defense-Cases.htm

HiCarry

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #112 on: February 19, 2014, 09:12:43 PM »
Haha. I guess the moderator deleted my original post and wrote this. Sad! I guess there no free speech in this forum anymore.

There never was...this is a private forum, not a government agency, and they can, and do moderate some comments.

Dblnaknak

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2014, 09:19:01 PM »

There never was...this is a private forum, not a government agency, and they can, and do moderate some comments.

Yeah ok. Q constantly degrades and attempts to bully other posters on the forum. In his post he degrades me, and hpd implying that everyone is an idiot compared to him. I respond to constant disrespect and my post get deleted. Haha. Censorship at its best. 

Amazing.

Darmok and Jalad @Tanagra

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2014, 09:21:00 PM »
Yeah ok. Q constantly degrades and attempts to bully other posters on the forum. In his post he degrades me, and hpd implying that everyone is an idiot compared to him. I respond to constant disrespect and my post get deleted. Haha. Censorship at its best. 

Amazing.

"... the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men."
--Justice Louis D. Brandeis

338KID

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2014, 09:22:10 PM »
Yes HiCarry your right . (me) not knowing laws would of been wrong .  If he had a disability then that's on him . As for me I do what I do best ..... Scream and run like a little girl . It got me thru high school and this far
Fast is fine , accuracy is final

BUD

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2014, 09:28:55 PM »
Lol this thread was never intended to be educational. It's serving it's Intended purpose

LOL.  I guess better to be pissed of then pissed on!   :shaka:
It is what it is.

pj_benn

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2014, 09:38:34 PM »
Yes HiCarry your right . (me) not knowing laws would of been wrong .  If he had a disability then that's on him . As for me I do what I do best ..... Scream and run like a little girl . It got me thru high school and this far
Lol

ren

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2014, 09:42:14 PM »
Q constantly degrades and attempts to bully other posters in the universe. In his post he degrades CPT Jean Luc Picard, and hpd implying that everyone is an idiot compared to him. I respond to constant disrespect and my post  I get deleted sent to the Continuum. Haha. Censorship at its best. 
Amazing.

It is quite FASCINATING
Deeds Not Words

ImKu

Re: Yet another prime example of why we need CCW in Hawaii
« Reply #119 on: February 19, 2014, 09:46:48 PM »

There are vets just as bad if not worse than the guy in the ops vid. I embrace this forum and I didn't see anything wrong with dbls post. I'm a combat vet... If discredit someone elses service are you ok with it cause I've served? It's cool for q to shit all over hpd/cops without edits tho yeah? And honestly I don't care for cops in general

Agreed, there are some bad vets, but that goes for anything.  Like I said earlier, there is no shortage of assholes.  But I'm not sure how that is relevant to what I commented on the post where Dblnaknak basically discredited Army credentials and laughed at his service (while I was unaware of his background).  With that said, I was unaware that I stepped into a pissing match between different services (which I think is lame) or between each other, so I will leave that alone because for all I know those two actually know each other.  BTW, no where in my post did I imply that shitting on HPD was ok either.
The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.
- Bhagavad Gita