ridiculous... are you blind to the mostly one sided hypotheticals that have been shared by others?  Of course im trying to illustrate the other side of the coin, if the rebutt had merit, then the hypotheticals would be centered around the " average person" instead of the weak, frail, ill, elderly, with the heart condition, being attacked by drunk, drug crazed, gangsters. 

I will read up... thanks.  Im going off my experience and travels to states/countries that had relaxed gun laws, I swear every other day as I watched the nightly news, there was a shooting on the highway from road rage, or a shooting in a parking lot or, something involving a gun.   It was also very uncomfortable being around people who were carrying and I was not.

The topic is CCW, which isnt a right or privilege as it is currently restricted here, therefore, currently nothing is being infringed upon.  This is not Arizona, Vermont, Alaska, Utah, or Kentucky.... this is Hawaii...

Its pretty insulting, but I forgive your ignorance.   im simply struggling to understand other CCW proponents perspective so im asking questions? Its called getting educated and informed.  I have enjoyed firearms for hunting and target practice since I was a kid, and I still do enjoy it.    I have no problem with using firearms for these endeavors.  I struggle with the concept of everday citizens packing and possibly killing people, I am content with military/LEO possessing this power.  Forgive me for challenging, questioning, and validating others opinion.  Maybe you should ask more questions as your understanding is limited. The topic is CCW, which isnt a right or privilege as it is currently restricted here, therefore, currently nothing is being infringed upon.  This is not Arizona, Vermont, Alaska, Utah, or Kentucky.... this is Hawaii... I am comfortable with gun ownership w/o CCW here.  If there were stronger arguments for CCW, I may choose to support it, but at this time... imho, its unnecessary.

Q, let's try and keep this civil. I think this is a great learning opportunity for people who are on the fence about CCW.

I agree. I must admit that some of the questions posed have made me question the true intent of poster, but subsequent replies lead me to believe his questions are genuine, even if, IMHO, a bit ill-informed. So, let's help a brother out...and do so knowing we may be sharing a range, or a frosty adult beverage with him sometime down the road...

Don't know why you feel the need to call me ignorant, but whatever.  What I was trying to do was let you know how I and maybe others perceive some of your statements.  Your uneasiness with CCW is similar to that of people that I have talked to about gun laws.  They are not comfortable with people possessing "assault weapons" and they think that people don't "need" them.  Same concept with CCW.  Just because YOU think that there is a requirement or a "stronger argument" needed is justify CCW, you don't want to support it.  Do you not see the correlation?  What about my understanding is limited?   Or is that just another attempt to insult me?  Come on man, I am trying to keep this civil... if anything it seems that your understanding is limited.  You fail to understand what basic requirements MUST be met prior to the use deadly force as you still need someone to tell you when it is justified.

My belief is that CCW is a right, a right that is not acknowledged here.  So it has been infringe upon since the beginning.  No privilege necessary.  This is how I feel.  Others may disagree, and that's fine.  What kills me is that you state that you would be "content with military/LEO possessing this power" (of CCW).  Do you know how many military is on this island bro?  BTW, no shit this is Hawaii.  I'm kanaka moali so you can cut that crap out.


*I wish Funtimes was here, as his classes/training that he provided would have helped you understand deadly force.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Deadly+Force

If you feel like your rights are being infringed upon, go confront or  sue whoever is taking your rights.

Nope not blinded, but I let statistics weigh in on my decisions more than fear.  "It was also very uncomfortable being around people who were carrying and I was not." I didnt feel uncomfortable in my travels to other carry friendly states, maybe you did, but that doesnt mean your feelings were justified. The problem is jumping to these extreme scenarios without providing any real evidence that these scenarios will become common place when ccw is allowed here. A good place to look is at other states with ccw that have had it in place for sometime. This provides the most accurate guess at how another state will fair with ccw. Your quote above also hits another note about other people carrying when you cant. Criminals carry regardless of laws, and should be feared way more than your average ccw holder. Since criminals do carry, I would like to carry especially since they are not operating in the confines of the law. Its funny that you say you watched the nightly news and there were regular shootings when you were in other states. My response to that would be. I swear it seems like there are always stories of people getting stabbed here in Hawaii.  You also failed to mention if these "shootings" were involving ccw holders, criminals, police, or accidental. Shootings do happen fairly regularly, but not by ccw holders. Mostly its gang related. Which other states do have a bigger problem with than Hawaii.

Ok, i have read your responses and i agree with some, and disagree with some of what you wrote, but i respect your opinion, and although i have a different opinion than yours, im content with the non-explaination also..  I was just curious about why you feel the need for ccw, and to understand where you were coming from better.  My mind is open, thats why i am posting and attempting to understand you, but it appears you are agitated due to being asked for explanations so im comfortable ending the discussion here.  Thanks for your time.

the help bringing me up to speed is much appreciated. I dont think I have ever claimed to be well informed, I haveonly been stating my opinions and trying to understand others.  Damn, you know how much damn typing this is... its sure is time consuming... leading me to question if the investment is even worth the effort to reach an understanding.

But smart people will use things that reduce the need for physical confrontation and/or give them the upper hand in the situation so that they can neutralize the threat without risking increased probability of bodily harm and/or death.

On this note, I think that you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the right to self-defense has consisted of in this country from our founding.  People have always been able to carry arms (guns) for self-defense and defense of others.  If you care to read the Peruta decision, I think it's probably the best written opinion covering history on the 2nd Amendment that I have seen.  They cover almost all of the State cases that are routinely mis-attributed.  The only time "conceal" carry has been really authorized to be banned, was when open carry of arms was available. To this point, carrying concealed was considered a cowards way of carrying a gun; in today's standards, we would reverse this as too many people are butt hurt when they see a firearm.  My bias aside, the opinions holding against really skim the surface looking for quotes they can toss in for a citation, but completely do not get the message from the courts they cite.  They are really being disingenuous and it's kind of repulsive.

 In earlier periods, minority races were suppressed by democrats and had gun rights restricted in order to keep African Americans unarmed.  This is essentially where 'gun control,' as we know it, began.   This continued and incidents like the Black Panthers march on the California State capitol lead to more gun crime laws and regulations. Politicians have used gun crime to further their attempts to look hard and tough and crime and gangs.  Then during prohibition, Federal agents were getting their tails handed to them by thugs and common citizens, so they started to ban the full auto firearms and other devices under the NFA etc.

The problem with saying that this is not arizona, vermont, alaka etc. is kind of a farce.  Hawaii is part of the United States; regardless of how it got there, or who thinks that it shouldn't be - it is. That means the state has to play ball under the Constitution.  The philosophy espoused by some of the Hawaii Court justices in that "Western law has no place on our islands" is garbage and makes those individuals a disgrace to the judicial system.  Justices do not get options on whether or not they want to uphold the constitution based on what state they live in.

To another point: The Kingdom of Hawaii also allowed the bearing of arms for self-defense.

Hey bubba808,

Here living in Hawaii where we haven't every really had a recognized right for concealed (or open) carry except for a couple politically chosen people in the past, this change can be scary in our minds. But think about this, many other states have gone through the exact same changes in recognizing the right to carry and they haven't experienced the "horrible catastrophes" that the Brady Campaign always promises.

One point, you say that you are worried about unstable people escalating situations and just start shooting, but do you also normally walk down these streets with the same concerns? Are you aware there are criminals that walk around every day carrying guns illegally? You may not think about it because it's "out of sight, out of mind." Sometimes the things that can scare us the most are our own ideas of what can happen.
I do think about this when walking around, I am weary but not as worried about being hit with a hand, fist, or knife than I am about a bullet, given a bullets range and destructive capacity. 
Since you mentioned the above, I assume that you don't know that there is a lawsuit out right now being considered in the 9th circuit court for Hawaii (Baker v. Kealoha). That is also why we start having these discussions. I was aware of the hdf but not this specific caseAs was the opinion of the three judge panel in Peruta v. San Diego, they hold that the right to carry outside the home is a historically recognized right. This is important because the government will often try and gradually take away rights, slowly but surely, and this is something we are gaining back.

If you don't know, it is legal to carry today in Hawaii with an issued concealed carry permit. Historically, however, Hawaii has created a de facto ban on carry by not issuing any permits at all. A few police chiefs in the past have issued these permits (more than 10 years ago) but only has issued them to politically connected citizens.this I was definately aware of, thats why when I discuss ccw, I usually stated that it isnt granted... that being by the chief of police.

Very true 
If it came down to a fist fight I would of gotten hurt . If it came down to the quicker draw I would of gotten shot . The only way I would win is to be the smarter man and walk .

You say you no mean to bash then you bash.  As stated, your post was insulting.  Interesting how you correlate assult weapon ownership with CCW.  Im fine with owning firearm, and I own many myself, including assult rifles, I think its great and i do wish there was more freedom of movement as I feel the HRSs are overly restrictive, but to me CCW is totally different, its  unencumbered, and hidden, and anybody could be packing.  Of course, I can have an opinion... you dont like it? IDGAF!   Im not saying you have to agree, im just expressing a difference of opinion and looking for some objective evidence that would cause me to change my mind.

First, let's all take a deep breath and assume that no one is bashing anyone. Remember, here on the interweb it is sometimes difficult to convey the nuances of actual conversation, so let's try to play nice in the sandbox. Second, I doubt you own an "assault rifle" as that denotes a select fire weapon. You most likely own what the press and anti's like to call an "assault weapon" which is made up term, conceived to promote confusion and fear over any military looking rifle. But, that being said, the analogy to an "assault weapon" and concealed carry isn't that far off. Believe it or not, some people would make it illegal for you to own that semi-automatic rifle just because "they" call it an "assault weapon." You, from what I can deduce from your multiple statements, don't think folks should be able to concealed carry, or that you believe the practice should be restricted to a small class of people you believe are better trained. (on a side note, you know what the yearly round count to re-qualify at HPD is? Take a wild guess.....) However, the data (and this is true, hard data, not the "..I feel..." or "I think"...type of emotional argument that is so frequently used by anti's...) does not support the wild west shootouts or gunfights over minor issues as you seem to suggest will happen. Florida is a prime example. As one of the leaders in the "shall issue" concealed carry movement, they originally created, funded and maintained a database just to keep track of crimes committed by all these newly permitted residents. They maintained that database for something like 10 years and finally shut it down. You know why? Because, in general, those individuals that are willing to go thru the necessary process to get a CCW are extremely law abiding. The legislature finally determined that so few crimes, of any kind, not just firearms related, were committed by CCW holders that it was no cost effective to keep the registry open. Data from other states mirrors those findings and currently, across the nation, those that hold CCWs are less likely than the population in general to commit ANY crime, let alone a firearms related one. And it is interesting that many of the folks who were initially opposed to CCW based on the same fears and concerns you raise, such as LE, have subsequently come out and said they were wrong and that all the bad things they tthought would happen never did. And finally, I think it says a lot that not one state that has made it easier to get a CCW has repealed its law, or subsequently made it more difficult to get one.

 I did not fail to understand that athe basic requirements Must be met.  as stated, I personally dont agree with how arbitrary or basic the requirement is as the threshold is left up to feelings of individual. You realize some people are more "sensitive" than others right? So if the same "sensitive" people can and probably will get CCW if it is granted, and the start "feeling" threatened, and start whipping out guns and maybe shooting someone... i think that will suck more than the pleasure of carrying.  Also as Funtimes stated, it is unsure what amount of additional training, if any, will be needed to obtain CCW, and now.. possibly without "good cause", more of the "sensitives" might be packing in the future.  Thats what I dont like.  Again, these are my opinions.

And while you are entitled to your opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. As stated above, your concern that WHEN we get CCW folks will be shooting each other over parking stalls and other perceived slights, just isn't going to happen. It hasn't happened anywhere else in the US that has liberal CCW laws, why do you suspect it will happen here? Are the people of Hawaii dumber than their counterparts on the mainland? Are they in general, more prone to unprovoked outbursts than those on the mainland? What personality flaws make you think individuals in Hawaii aren't going to be as safe, responsible, and restrained as those on the mainland? You do realize that most of the shooting we have had here have been with illegal, non-registered guns, right? With the exception of Uyesugi and Deedy, the notable firearms related shootings have all been with non-registered guns. So, don't be too concerned about those legal, law abiding citizens with guns, be concerned with the criminals that will carry and use firearms regardless of what any law says.

The military/LEO is an oversight on my part, what I intended to convey was military leo/non military leo... just so there is NO mistaking, let me say I do NOT agree that every member of the military should have CCW, only those military members in a LEO capacity.  Sorry for not being clear enough.

WRT this being Hawaii, if you raed my other posts, i stated that have experienced CCW/open carry and it doesnt feel as comfortable, , I felt uneasy, tense, on edge, as I had an added worry that I might bump into somebody and get shot, or my family might get shot, and every other day on the news, something gun related.... here I feel relaxed, at ease, I no need be as worried, the news get gun related violence... rarely tho.  So please, no get excited bu.. and as far you being Hawaiian, what does race/ethnicity have to do with any of this? Are you saying that only your views are representative of local style cuz youre Hawaiian?   Im saying that per the video where da other hawaiian was goin racial on da haoles, he was wrong, but it wasnt threatening enough to meet the basic requirements to warrant CCW and the accompanying ability to use deadly force.  I am starting to understand HiCarry and Funtimes points about if the situation were to have escalated that it could become to the level where thay may choose to use and be justified under the law.  And like they said, if I dont like the law, tough.  Me personally, I am choosing to hold myself to a higher standard than the laws of man, I am following the laws of GOD, by choosing not to kill another man.  Again this is my CHOICE, im not telling them to do the same, im telling them my opinion.

And I would bet that all those news stories, or at least the vast majority, were about people using illegal guns, not lawful concealed carriers. I also hate to break it to you, but a lot of the crimes, including violent and firearms related, are not reported in the news. If you personally know any cops, ask them haw frequently these crimes are actually committed versus reported. You will be surprised. And God did not say you not kill, he said you should not murder. Killing in defense of yourself, your family, or the church was never thought to be a sin.

furthermore, you can believe whatever you like about CCW being a right.  But Is it really a right if its not acknowledged? I dont think so...otherwise id ask you to execise your right.   If you feel like your rights are being infringed upon, go confront or  sue whoever is taking your rights.  Dont get mad at me cuz I get a difference of opinion.

Please see my other response about a right versus a privilege. Was it a right to own a handgun in Washington DC before the Heller decision? Of course it was, that's why it went to court. Just because you can't exercise a right doesn't make it not a right and suggesting otherwise again shows a certain amount of ignorance about the topic one would otherwise think one would have at this point in time. And, just to be clear, I use ignorance/ignorant not as a pejorative, but rather to convey that you just don't know...

Of course the effort is worth it....if you are considering concealed carry, or even just trying to wrap your head around the issues, information is key.

Me too, I let statistic weigh in on my decisions also.  When I asked for statistics, none were provided.

Remind me what statistics you were asking for. The most recent study, started after after Obama's EO that allowed the CDC to use funding to fuel gun research, stated that self defense shootings were at least as common as the criminal use of guns.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/082113-668335-cdc-gun-violence-study-goes-against-media-narrative.htm and http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/08/27/cdc-gun-research-backfires-on-obama/

And a link to the study itself: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=

And here's a good general information resource that debunks many of the gun myths you seem to buy into: http://www.gunfacts.info/

People with concealed carry permits are:
• 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
• 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Carry Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population, William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999

In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime. They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime.
Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September, 2000

Even gun control organizations agree it is a non-problem, as in Texas – “because there haven't been Wild West shootouts in the streets” - Nina Butts, Texans Against Gun Violence, Dallas Morning News, August 10, 2000

Of 14,000 CCW licensees in Oregon, only 4 (0.03%) were convicted of the criminal (not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.

“I'm detecting that I'm eating a lot of crow on this issue ... I think that says something, that we've gotten to this point in the year and in the third largest city in America there has not been a single charge against anyone that had anything to do with a concealed handgun.”
John Holmes, Harris County [Houston, TX] District Attorney, In Session: Handgun Law's First Year Belies Fears of 'Blood in the Streets,” Texas Lawyer, December 9, 1996

In Florida, a state that has allowed concealed carry since late 1987, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator as by a person with a concealed carry permit.
Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report, Florida Department of State, 1998 – Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, December 1998

Compared to the entire population, Texas CCW holders are about 7.6 times less likely to be arrested for a violent crime.
Texas Department of Corrections data, 1996-2000, compiled by the Texas State Rifle Association, www.tsra.com/arrests.htm

A different study concludes that the four year violent crime arrest rate for CCW holders is 128 per 100,000. For the general population, it is 710 per 100,000. In other words, CCW holders are 5.5 times less likely to commit a violent crime.
An Analysis Of The Arrest Rate Of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders As Compared To The Arrest Rate Of The Entire Texas Population, William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999

“I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened. All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. No bogeyman. I think it's worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I'm a convert."
Glenn White, President of the Dallas Police Association, Dallas Morning News, December 23, 1997

“It has impressed me how remarkably responsible the permit holders have been.”
Colonel James Wilson, Director Texas Department of Public Safety, Dallas Morning News, Jun 11, 1996

Multiple victim public shootings drop in states that pass shall-issue CCW legislation.
Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement, Lott John R., Landes William M.; University of Chicago – covers years 1977 to 1995


Are you seriously questioning if my feelings are justified? My uncomfortable feeling is a result of my own perceptions, how can you tell if my feeling are justified, as they are my feelings.  Just like the feelings of being threatened are based on the individuals perceptions may or may not be justified to you, but to me they are justified.

While you are entitled to your feelings, it isn't improper to have someone note, especially if they can provide a factual basis for it, to say your fears are unfounded. If you fear that a lawful CCW holder is going to shoot you while you are visiting the mainland, your fears are unfounded based on the statistics. Which is why so many of "us" are quick to call you (and anyone else) on your use of "feelings" over logic and factual information. You can be afraid to fly, but statistically you are safer flying than driving in a car. That's a fact, and if you wanted to advertise to the world that you were afraid of flying, I suspect many would be all too willing to correctly state that your "feelings" were unfounded.

 Imam agreeing with you about the problem with extreme scenarios, but that goes for both sides of the issue, which is what I was trying to illustrate.   
My question WRT CCW, is not wether crime is low, was crime high before and now that ccw was is allowed, did it go down?  I.e. did ccw actually decrease crime?   I understand what youre saying about criminals, however criminals are the extreme, if you read my posts, I have stated that my concern would be more about the increased number of firearms in public and the careless use of these firearms.  I think I mentioned that the shooting were reported to be due to apparent road rage and altercation in a parking lot etc.  These were non accidental from citizens, not LEO, if citizen was a criminal it was not or could not be determined via news report.
WRT gang related crime, youre saying gangs cause higher crime rates and other states have a bigger problem with gang crime than Hawaii, so arent you providing statistics that say Hawaii has less crime? So do we then need ccw to reduce crime when we already have less crime?

See some of the facts I noted above. The bottom line is: good law abiding folks are not going to suddenly become careless and whip out their gun at the slightest provocation. That crime generally goes down after CCW is passed, along with mass shootings. That all the blood in the streets, gun fights over trivial matters aren't going to happen....unless that is, you somehow think the good citizens of Hawaii are fundamentally different and less capable of restraint and good judgement than those who live on the mainland.

property crime rates may be high, but its almost irrelevant as you couldnt use deadly force against a thief,  or does getting robbed make a case for feeling threatened/terrified and using deadly force? If ccw were allowed, could you draw your weapon to stop/control a thief without getting in trouble?  What if thief is leaving (heading away from you) with your jewelry, and you draw and yell stop, he doesnt see and continues to head away; could you do anything?

You say you no mean to bash then you bash.  As stated, your post was insulting.  Interesting how you correlate assult weapon ownership with CCW.  Im fine with owning firearm, and I own many myself, including assult rifles, I think its great and i do wish there was more freedom of movement as I feel the HRSs are overly restrictive, but to me CCW is totally different, its  unencumbered, and hidden, and anybody could be packing.  Of course, I can have an opinion... you dont like it? IDGAF!   Im not saying you have to agree, im just expressing a difference of opinion and looking for some objective evidence that would cause me to change my mind.

 I did not fail to understand that athe basic requirements Must be met.  as stated, I personally dont agree with how arbitrary or basic the requirement is as the threshold is left up to feelings of individual. You realize some people are more "sensitive" than others right? So if the same "sensitive" people can and probably will get CCW if it is granted, and the start "feeling" threatened, and start whipping out guns and maybe shooting someone... i think that will suck more than the pleasure of carrying.  Also as Funtimes stated, it is unsure what amount of additional training, if any, will be needed to obtain CCW, and now.. possibly without "good cause", more of the "sensitives" might be packing in the future.  Thats what I dont like.  Again, these are my opinions.

The military/LEO is an oversight on my part, what I intended to convey was military leo/non military leo... just so there is NO mistaking, let me say I do NOT agree that every member of the military should have CCW, only those military members in a LEO capacity.  Sorry for not being clear enough.

WRT this being Hawaii, if you raed my other posts, i stated that have experienced CCW/open carry and it doesnt feel as comfortable, , I felt uneasy, tense, on edge, as I had an added worry that I might bump into somebody and get shot, or my family might get shot, and every other day on the news, something gun related.... here I feel relaxed, at ease, I no need be as worried, the news get gun related violence... rarely tho.  So please, no get excited bu.. and as far you being Hawaiian, what does race/ethnicity have to do with any of this? Are you saying that only your views are representative of local style cuz youre Hawaiian?   Im saying that per the video where da other hawaiian was goin racial on da haoles, he was wrong, but it wasnt threatening enough to meet the basic requirements to warrant CCW and the accompanying ability to use deadly force.  I am starting to understand HiCarry and Funtimes points about if the situation were to have escalated that it could become to the level where thay may choose to use and be justified under the law.  And like they said, if I dont like the law, tough.  Me personally, I am choosing to hold myself to a higher standard than the laws of man, I am following the laws of GOD, by choosing not to kill another man.  Again this is my CHOICE, im not telling them to do the same, im telling them my opinion.

furthermore, you can believe whatever you like about CCW being a right.  But Is it really a right if its not acknowledged? I dont think so...otherwise id ask you to execise your right.   If you feel like your rights are being infringed upon, go confront or  sue whoever is taking your rights.  Dont get mad at me cuz I get a difference of opinion.