When do we take ownership of things?
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/31924814/graphic-video-da-releases-findings-in-deadly-officer-involved-shooting

District Attorney Moore said Smith's family saw the videos for the first time Monday, adding "The person firing at these officers was not the child they raised, and is in no way the child they knew." The family apologized to the officers, and said they would like to bring awareness to mental health issues in the future.

So who was that mysterious person shooting at officers?

I doubt there's any group more blind to the simple facts of reality than parents when it comes to their children. The guy who threw the cinder block onto Reginald Denny's head during the LA riots, which was captured on video, was convicted, and his tearful mother spoke at the penalty phase of the trial saying (paraphrase)  "He's a good boy. He would never hurt anyone." 

...So who was that mysterious person shooting at officers?

The child that they apologized to the family for. It was sort of a back handed way of taking responsibility without actually coming right out and doing so. Not defending them in any way. Just saying....

I think that there are multiple psychological factors at work here.

On the one hand mental health issues can be hard to recognized and your average parent might not recognize them. It is possible that they had never seen this side of their kid before but who knows.

Secondly is that dealing with something like this is difficult. The human brain will try to rationalize things. It often works off of emotion instead of logic and reason. Like when Michael Jackson was accused of molesting children. He had many supporters who said Michael Jackson would never do something like that. Was it because they knew him personally? No, it was because they liked his music which has no bearing on whether he molested children or not.

It might take time for the family to process this and accepting some level of guilt might come later.

I think that there are multiple psychological factors at work here.

On the one hand mental health issues can be hard to recognized and your average parent might not recognize them. It is possible that they had never seen this side of their kid before but who knows.

Secondly is that dealing with something like this is difficult. The human brain will try to rationalize things. It often works off of emotion instead of logic and reason. Like when Michael Jackson was accused of molesting children. He had many supporters who said Michael Jackson would never do something like that. Was it because they knew him personally? No, it was because they liked his music which has no bearing on whether he molested children or not.

It might take time for the family to process this and accepting some level of guilt might come later.

Hmmm, I wonder if they didn't "recognize" that he was on probation (I wonder what for and if it was his first time?)? I wonder if they didn't notice his thuggish attire or what I am sure was a series of law enforcement encounters in the past?

It's the same culture that seems to think it's OK to rob people at gun point but not OK for those being robbed, or a good Samaritan, to shoot back.....

http://www.mrcolionnoir.com/right-to-carry/armed-robbers-family-is-angry-after-he-is-shot-robbing-a-dollar-store/

Hmmm, I wonder if they didn't "recognize" that he was on probation (I wonder what for and if it was his first time?)? I wonder if they didn't notice his thuggish attire or what I am sure was a series of law enforcement encounters in the past?

It's the same culture that seems to think it's OK to rob people at gun point but not OK for those being robbed, or a good Samaritan, to shoot back.....

http://www.mrcolionnoir.com/right-to-carry/armed-robbers-family-is-angry-after-he-is-shot-robbing-a-dollar-store/

Sure, there could be some negligence there. I was just speculating because there are few details provided. I am pretty much just saying that if mental health were a factor it is understandable how it is missed by parents.

Sure, there could be some negligence there. I was just speculating because there are few details provided. I am pretty much just saying that if mental health were a factor it is understandable how it is missed by parents.

What, specifically, mental health problem that manifests itself in childhood has symptoms and behaviors associated with it that a normal, responsible parent would not recognize?

What, specifically, mental health problem that manifests itself in childhood has symptoms and behaviors associated with it that a normal, responsible parent would not recognize?

Depends on a lot of things. The severity of the mental health issue, the education level of the parents, the experience of the parents, etc etc etc.

A brand new parent who knows nothing of autism (for example) might not think anything of autistic behavior in their child. Things are always easier to see in hindsight.

Depends on a lot of things. The severity of the mental health issue, the education level of the parents, the experience of the parents, etc etc etc.

A brand new parent who knows nothing of autism (for example) might not think anything of autistic behavior in their child. Things are always easier to see in hindsight.

Autism has a spectrum of symptoms that manifest as varying degrees of disability (not talking, not walking, anti-social, violent behavior) that start from the youngest age. If you are a parent and don't realize your kid isn't walking, talking or meeting other developmental benchmarks, you're negligent. Period!

That being said, other news stories show family stating he had a history of mental problems and sexual assault. He was convicted and sentenced to 2 years probation for the sexual assault on a minor. Sounds like the family knew he had mental problems, including violent tendencies. The statements by his parents were not from misguided simple folks who were unaware of the guys history, there were made with full knowledge of that history and were made in an attempt to mitigate their own sense of responsibility and possibly avoid civil legal issues as his guardian.

Records show Smith was arrested in Baton Rouge in July 2013 on sexual battery and contributing to the delinquency of a juvenile after he was accused of having sex with a 13-year-old girl whose mother had reported her missing.

Calvin eventually pleaded guilty to cruelty to a juvenile and was sentenced in August 2014 to two years’ supervised probation.

Gina Chambers, who said she is Smith’s godsister, said he moved in with her on Fairfields Avenue when he came back to Baton Rouge in December after living for a time in Shreveport. She said he has a history of mental illness and had attempted suicide previously, but she had not noticed any unusual behavior recently.

Chambers said the suicide attempt was in Shreveport, where Smith had been admitted for treatment and was taking medication for some type of clinical depression. Chambers said family members were trying to get him treatment in Baton Rouge but did not know why he had not received it yet.

http://theadvocate.com/news/police/14865187-172/two-baton-rouge-police-officers-shot-early-saturday-morning-conditions-unknown

Autism has a spectrum of symptoms that manifest as varying degrees of disability (not talking, not walking, anti-social, violent behavior) that start from the youngest age. If you are a parent and don't realize your kid isn't walking, talking or meeting other developmental benchmarks, you're negligent. Period!

That being said, other news stories show family stating he had a history of mental problems and sexual assault. He was convicted and sentenced to 2 years probation for the sexual assault on a minor. Sounds like the family knew he had mental problems, including violent tendencies. The statements by his parents were not from misguided simple folks who were unaware of the guys history, there were made with full knowledge of that history and were made in an attempt to mitigate their own sense of responsibility and possibly avoid civil legal issues as his guardian.

http://theadvocate.com/news/police/14865187-172/two-baton-rouge-police-officers-shot-early-saturday-morning-conditions-unknown

Now there is some context, agreed, they cannot claim a lack of knowledge in this case.


People with autism actually tend to avoid violence, but that is another topic. The thing is that these developmental benchmarks you refer to are not always common sense and they are not necessarily universally known. An educated parent might have read book and discovered that a kid should be talking by a certain age, but a less educated parent might not know about these benchmarks. For these reasons I am hesitant to quickly blame a parent for not recognizing a mental illness issue because it is not always obvious. A lot of bad parents aren't bad because they are negligent, they are bad because they are ignorant.

Now there is some context, agreed, they cannot claim a lack of knowledge in this case.


People with autism actually tend to avoid violence, but that is another topic. The thing is that these developmental benchmarks you refer to are not always common sense and they are not necessarily universally known. An educated parent might have read book and discovered that a kid should be talking by a certain age, but a less educated parent might not know about these benchmarks. For these reasons I am hesitant to quickly blame a parent for not recognizing a mental illness issue because it is not always obvious. A lot of bad parents aren't bad because they are negligent, they are bad because they are ignorant.

And, that ignorance is willful and detrimental to the child. Why is it that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law but it is so quickly invoked as an excuse for so many other failings?

And, that ignorance is willful and detrimental to the child. Why is it that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law but it is so quickly invoked as an excuse for so many other failings?

The law has to say ignorance is no defense because otherwise everyone could claim ignorance. Criminal law is generally pretty uniform in terms of what is legal and not, but when it comes to the science of child rating, that is not so universally known and is changing as more is learned through scientific discovery.

.

Please provide citation or source document that supports your underlined, bolded text, above. Thank you.

I heard it during a talk by a psychologist, but let me see if I can find a source to validate what he said.

Recent reports have not been able to confirm that violent crime is increased in persons with ASD, however:
In a clinical sample of 313 Danish adults with ASD (age 25 to 59) drawn from the Danish Register of Criminality, Mouridsen and colleagues found that persons with ASD had a lower rate of criminal conviction than matched controls (9%, compared with 18%).14
In a small community study, Woodbury-Smith and colleagues examined the prevalence rates and types of offending behavior in persons with ASD. Based on official records, only two (18%) had a history of criminal conviction.15
http://www.currentpsychiatry.com/home/article/violent-behavior-in-autism-spectrum-disorder-is-it-a-fact-or-fiction/11f5bce386af9de90e9d650ae9b2abe2.html

Indeed, psychologists and psychiatrists agree that people with autism or Asperger’s are not more likely to commit violent crimes than members of the general population, but they say in very rare cases, it can happen. http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20121218/aspergers-violence

Children with autism are bullied more often than other children, although they can occasionally be bullies themselves, according to research by the Interactive Autism Network.13
"What has been missing from this debate is the fact that most of the legal contact that individuals with autism have is as victims," Dr. Lerner said....
https://iancommunity.org/ssc/autism-crime


He also said that when autistic people are violent, it is usually in a defensive manner, not offensive. I haven't found a link to confirm that yet.

To complicate everything, autism is a spectrum disorder. That means someone could be so autistic that they can barely function in the real world while others might be so mild that it only mildly affects them in the real world. It has been suggested by a counselor that I could be mildly autistic. I have never sought out official diagnosis though as I am unsure whether it could affect my employment or even my right to own guns. My own anecdotal experiences would support this. I tend to shy away from violence and adhere to rules (another autistic trait)

Spectrum type mental illness can be hard to recognize by the average adult since it might not be obviously odd behavior.

So who was that mysterious person shooting at officers?

That would be Dindu Nuffin.

The law has to say ignorance is no defense because otherwise everyone could claim ignorance. Criminal law is generally pretty uniform in terms of what is legal and not, but when it comes to the science of child rating, that is not so universally known and is changing as more is learned through scientific discovery.

Bulls**t...criminal law is full of contradictory and confusing definitions, i.e. what is legal or not legal. Just look at the broad spectrum of what is legal in one part of the country versus another part.

The question on "ignorance" was a rhetorical one...but let me clarify. If you have a kid and you don't take it to the doctor it's negligence. If the you do and the doctor fails to diagnose ASD, especially those with obvious symptoms, it's negligence. If your kid is oppositional and defiant, engaged in criminal activity, and violent and you don't recognize there is a problem, or choose to ignore it, you are negligent. Period!

Saying "I didn't know" or "I didn't understand" or "the doctor never told me" or any other cope out excuse should not be excused with a wave of a hand and a round of Kumbaya!

As for being "less violent" you are incorrect. They may commit less crime, but that was not the issue. There are multiple studies and training venues to address the violence associated with ASD. The violence is not usually defensive in nature, although it can be. Usually it is a coping mechanism used when they feel out of control or get upset, usually over social situations that they are not able to adequately deal with in what would be considered a more socially acceptable method.

http://www.psychiatrist.com/JCP/article/Pages/2003/v64s04/v64s0403.aspx

Bulls**t...criminal law is full of contradictory and confusing definitions, i.e. what is legal or not legal. Just look at the broad spectrum of what is legal in one part of the country versus another part.

The question on "ignorance" was a rhetorical one...but let me clarify. If you have a kid and you don't take it to the doctor it's negligence. If the you do and the doctor fails to diagnose ASD, especially those with obvious symptoms, it's negligence. If your kid is oppositional and defiant, engaged in criminal activity, and violent and you don't recognize there is a problem, or choose to ignore it, you are negligent. Period!

Saying "I didn't know" or "I didn't understand" or "the doctor never told me" or any other cope out excuse should not be excused with a wave of a hand and a round of Kumbaya!

As for being "less violent" you are incorrect. They may commit less crime, but that was not the issue. There are multiple studies and training venues to address the violence associated with ASD. The violence is not usually defensive in nature, although it can be. Usually it is a coping mechanism used when they feel out of control or get upset, usually over social situations that they are not able to adequately deal with in what would be considered a more socially acceptable method.

http://www.psychiatrist.com/JCP/article/Pages/2003/v64s04/v64s0403.aspx

Nonsense. In all 50 states, murder, theft (in all it's forms), assault, threatening, etc. are consistently illegal. Small things like zoning or parking regulations do of course vary depending on the state.

And if the family could not afford visits to a doctor? A lot of individuals involved in the criminal system come from low income homes without fathers. If that high school dropout single mom couldn't afford to take her child to the doctors regularly, how would you establish negligence? Then even if you establish negligence, what are you going to do? Sue them for money they don't have?

I am unable to access the article you links, you appear to have to be some sort of member. The links I posted support what I said, so I don't know how you can simply claim I am incorrect. Violence should be differentiated from aggression. Being aggressive does not mean one is being violent. So an individual with autism may act aggressively, yelling and doing other things but that doesn't mean they are committing acts of violence. So yes, the fact that they commit less crime is evidence that they are less violent.

.

You are not a mental health expert.

In my opinion, your blanket statements about these types of mental health issues is irresponsible and misleading.

I can tell you (as you already know) that for every study or presentation you cite, I would be able to cite an equally credible counter-argument that refutes your position.

Anectodally speaking, I attended a Law & Psychology conference in which a keynote speaker admitted that, without early intervention and a loving, supportive family, individuals with autism/Asperbergers Syndrome actually tend to resort to violent outbursts, due to the fact that they are unable to effectively communicate and express their needs/wants.

Again, anecdotally speaking...

I am not making blanket statements, I am making general statements. That is to say that something holds true most of the time. You cannot make blanket statements in psychology and sociology because someone can always deviate.

No, I am not a mental health expert but I receive regular training on mental health issues (annual) and I regularly interact with people with mental illness. Additionally I also find it to be an area of interest. So that is where I am coming from, just to clarify.

If we are going to go down the road of "I am not an expert and neither are you, we can both cite sources" then that leads us at an impasse. We would be unable to discuss a lot of issues on this forum since none of us are experts in the field. Can't talk global warming because we aren't climate scientists, can't talk gun laws because we aren't lawyers, and you get the idea.

So where does that leave us?

Nonsense. In all 50 states, murder, theft (in all it's forms), assault, threatening, etc. are consistently illegal. Small things like zoning or parking regulations do of course vary depending on the state.

Define "theft" or, better yet, define felony theft. Now try that for another state. Now, try the exercise with terroristic threatening. Define "loaded gun" in Hawaii statue, then try using Nevada law.

And if the family could not afford visits to a doctor? A lot of individuals involved in the criminal system come from low income homes without fathers. If that high school dropout single mom couldn't afford to take her child to the doctors regularly, how would you establish negligence? Then even if you establish negligence, what are you going to do? Sue them for money they don't have?

Sorry, there are lots of avenues of assistance out there for medical care, even for low income families. Failing to take advantage of them is negligence. And, I use the term in its common definition, not legal definition where it is a component of compensation determinations. 

I am unable to access the article you links, you appear to have to be some sort of member. The links I posted support what I said, so I don't know how you can simply claim I am incorrect. Violence should be differentiated from aggression. Being aggressive does not mean one is being violent. So an individual with autism may act aggressively, yelling and doing other things but that doesn't mean they are committing acts of violence. So yes, the fact that they commit less crime is evidence that they are less violent.

Violence, according to the APA is the extreme of aggression. Therefore violence is aggression and aggression is violence. It is a continuum. Furthermore, your logic is off...the fact that they commit less crime cannot, logically be interpreted as they are less violent. So, your logic is faulty and your proclamation that "Violence should be differentiated from aggression" is counter to the APA. Try again....

Violence is an extreme form of aggression, such as assault, rape or murder. Violence has many causes, including frustration, exposure to violent media, violence in the home or neighborhood and a tendency to see other people's actions as hostile even when they're not. Certain situations also increase the risk of aggression, such as drinking, insults and other provocations and environmental factors like heat and overcrowding.
     
Adapted from the Encyclopedia of Psychology

http://www.apa.org/topics/violence/

The peer reviewed article is behind a paywall. It is a common practice for such journals to charge for access for their product. The very fact that there is a peer reviewed journal, a psychological one at that, that addresses the management of violent/aggressive behavior in ASD patients should give anyone with a few working neurons a clue that such behavior is a concern BECAUSE of its frequent manifestations in this patient population.