if you're wondering why you have to pay, it is because of the "under this section" clause.  the "reasonable fee" language is located in HRS §846-2.7

If you already paid the fee prior to this fiasco, then why pay again for fingerprint and photos (photos are digital anyways, no real cost involved)......

If you already paid the fee prior to this fiasco, then why pay again for fingerprint and photos (photos are digital anyways, no real cost involved)......

The cost is for new finger prints and photo, the tab back enrollment fee and the admin cost

The cost is for new finger prints and photo, the tab back enrollment fee and the admin cost

Yea, I know but it's still bullshit..... Ige should be paying for this....  curious to see what HPD does when I give them rolls of coins...... 

I think that a lot of you are attacking the issues with the wrong approach.  I think it would be smarter to first ask how they came up with the $42 fee.

HRS §846-2.7 is partially an enabling statute; it basically authorizes the HCJDC to set a "reasonable fee."  this usually means that there is some kind of Hawaii Administrative Rule that is tied to the HCJDC's power to set fees.  any HAR has to go through the normal legal process prior to it becoming effective.

in case you're not following me, what i'm saying is that the $42 fee needs to appear somewhere in order for them to officially charge us that amount.  prior to this whole rap back thing, the fingerprinting fee was directly tied to the amount actually charged by the FBI.  now, there needs to be some kind of corresponding HAR that would administratively set the "reasonable" amount.

take a look at these:  http://ag.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Fees-for-Hawaii-Criminal-Justice-Data-Center-Services.pdf
http://ag.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Amendments-to-Criminal-History-Record-Check-Fees.pdf

the foregoing links are to the HAR chapters that set the HCJDC fees.  i suspect that the $42 fee is ultra vires, but i could be wrong since i've only done a brief amount of research.  it is also possible that the $42 fee is a combination of fees.

what's even more interesting is the fact that the amount paid at the HPD counter seems to have no clear relationship to the amounts owed by the HCJDC to the FBI.

also, in case you're wondering where i got the links from, all of the HAR is posted on the LtG's website:  http://ltgov.hawaii.gov/the-office/administrative-rules/

specifically, you're looking for Title 5, which relates to the Attorney General.

Yea, I know but it's still bullshit..... Ige should be paying for this....  curious to see what HPD does when I give them rolls of coins...... 

i'd be pretty pissed at you if i were standing in line behind you and you decided to give them coins.  Please don't make the line any longer than it needs to be.  Although you think that you're making life difficult for the officers behind the window, just realize that they're probably salary workers and have no quota/commission to incentivize expeditious service.  this means that you're only wasting the time of the other people in line.

if you're still insistent on doing this, please pick a time that there is no one else in line behind you.

I think that a lot of you are attacking the issues with the wrong approach.  I think it would be smarter to first ask how they came up with the $42 fee.

HRS §846-2.7 is partially an enabling statute; it basically authorizes the HCJDC to set a "reasonable fee."  this usually means that there is some kind of Hawaii Administrative Rule that is tied to the HCJDC's power to set fees.  any HAR has to go through the normal legal process prior to it becoming effective.

in case you're not following me, what i'm saying is that the $42 fee needs to appear somewhere in order for them to officially charge us that amount.  prior to this whole rap back thing, the fingerprinting fee was directly tied to the amount actually charged by the FBI.  now, there needs to be some kind of corresponding HAR that would administratively set the "reasonable" amount.

take a look at these:  http://ag.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Fees-for-Hawaii-Criminal-Justice-Data-Center-Services.pdf
http://ag.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Amendments-to-Criminal-History-Record-Check-Fees.pdf

the foregoing links are to the HAR chapters that set the HCJDC fees.  i suspect that the $42 fee is ultra vires, but i could be wrong since i've only done a brief amount of research.  it is also possible that the $42 fee is a combination of fees.

what's even more interesting is the fact that the amount paid at the HPD counter seems to have no clear relationship to the amounts owed by the HCJDC to the FBI.

also, in case you're wondering where i got the links from, all of the HAR is posted on the LtG's website:  http://ltgov.hawaii.gov/the-office/administrative-rules/

specifically, you're looking for Title 5, which relates to the Attorney General.


i'd be pretty pissed at you if i were standing in line behind you and you decided to give them coins.  Please don't make the line any longer than it needs to be.  Although you think that you're making life difficult for the officers behind the window, just realize that they're probably salary workers and have no quota/commission to incentivize expeditious service.  this means that you're only wasting the time of the other people in line.

if you're still insistent on doing this, please pick a time that there is no one else in line behind you.

Thank you for the analysis.  Where does the " for individuals applying for their first permit " come into play.  I know that the fee is probably a combination of certain fees charged by the HCJDC for background checks and research, however that quoted line has nothing to do with that fee.

Also, didn't see the reference that says that you need to pay that fee for registrations, since you already have a permit in hand, your back ground has already been checked, thus you are legal to own and posses a firearm.  I can see this might be a case for out of state firearms registrations, but I am speaking example persons that have a complete and valid rifle, or pistol,  permit from the city already in hand.

Just trying to understand.

if you're wondering why you have to pay, it is because of the "under this section" clause.  the "reasonable fee" language is located in HRS §846-2.7

Who will try and charge this fee using their handy pCard?? 

Thank you for the analysis.  Where does the " for individuals applying for their first permit " come into play.  I know that the fee is probably a combination of certain fees charged by the HCJDC for background checks and research, however that quoted line has nothing to do with that fee.

Also, didn't see the reference that says that you need to pay that fee for registrations, since you already have a permit in hand, your back ground has already been checked, thus you are legal to own and posses a firearm.  I can see this might be a case for out of state firearms registrations, but I am speaking example persons that have a complete and valid rifle, or pistol,  permit from the city already in hand.

Just trying to understand.

the HCJDC fee is also under subsection (e) of HRS 134-3

Here's a link to the section, but note that, as of the time of this post, they haven't updated the website to reflect the change:  http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0003.htm

subsection (e) of HRS §134-3 was amended as follows:

subsection (e) to read:
     "(e)  No fee shall be charged for the registration of a firearm under this section, except for a fee chargeable by and payable to the registering county for persons registering a firearm under subsection (a), in an amount equal to the fee [actually] charged by the [Federal Bureau of Investigation to the registering police department for a fingerprint check in connection with the registration.] Hawaii criminal justice data center pursuant to section 846-2.7.  In the case of a joint registration, the fee provided for in this section may be charged to each person."


so going back to my earlier point, this seems more like a tax than anything else.  and the worst part about it is, the language could be interpreted to require the payment of the $42 fee for registration of EVERY gun, in which case it would definitely be a tax.

I think that a lot of you are attacking the issues with the wrong approach.  I think it would be smarter to first ask how they came up with the $42 fee.

HRS §846-2.7 is partially an enabling statute; it basically authorizes the HCJDC to set a "reasonable fee."  this usually means that there is some kind of Hawaii Administrative Rule that is tied to the HCJDC's power to set fees.  any HAR has to go through the normal legal process prior to it becoming effective.

in case you're not following me, what i'm saying is that the $42 fee needs to appear somewhere in order for them to officially charge us that amount.  prior to this whole rap back thing, the fingerprinting fee was directly tied to the amount actually charged by the FBI.  now, there needs to be some kind of corresponding HAR that would administratively set the "reasonable" amount.

take a look at these:  http://ag.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Fees-for-Hawaii-Criminal-Justice-Data-Center-Services.pdf
http://ag.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Amendments-to-Criminal-History-Record-Check-Fees.pdf

the foregoing links are to the HAR chapters that set the HCJDC fees.  i suspect that the $42 fee is ultra vires, but i could be wrong since i've only done a brief amount of research.  it is also possible that the $42 fee is a combination of fees.

what's even more interesting is the fact that the amount paid at the HPD counter seems to have no clear relationship to the amounts owed by the HCJDC to the FBI.

also, in case you're wondering where i got the links from, all of the HAR is posted on the LtG's website:  http://ltgov.hawaii.gov/the-office/administrative-rules/

specifically, you're looking for Title 5, which relates to the Attorney General.


i'd be pretty pissed at you if i were standing in line behind you and you decided to give them coins.  Please don't make the line any longer than it needs to be.  Although you think that you're making life difficult for the officers behind the window, just realize that they're probably salary workers and have no quota/commission to incentivize expeditious service.  this means that you're only wasting the time of the other people in line.

if you're still insistent on doing this, please pick a time that there is no one else in line behind you.

http://ag.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Amendments-to-Criminal-History-Record-Check-Fees.pdf

combination of fees, + the $13 charged by the FBI for rap back enrollment. Also remember that there is a state rapback system that you are also enrolled into.

Al thats being said. THERE IS NO FEE FOR A PERMIT if you already have one, The law is pretty dam clear.

http://ag.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Amendments-to-Criminal-History-Record-Check-Fees.pdf

combination of fees, + the $13 charged by the FBI for rap back enrollment. Also remember that there is a state rapback system that you are also enrolled into.

i don't think that Hawaii applicants/registrants are required to pay the $13 FBI fee.  i think the $13 FBI fee is swallowed by the HCJDC.  registrants/applicants were formerly required to pay the FBI fingerprinting fee, but that language was removed from the statute.

let me know if you come across anything in the HAR or HRS that requires registrant/applicants to pay the FBI fee.

i don't think that Hawaii applicants/registrants are required to pay the $13 FBI fee.  i think the $13 FBI fee is swallowed by the HCJDC.  registrants/applicants were formerly required to pay the FBI fingerprinting fee, but that language was removed from the statute.

let me know if you come across anything in the HAR or HRS that requires registrant/applicants to pay the FBI fee.

The $13 is not for fingerpringing, that's the fee charged by the FBI for enrollment into rapback,

The HRD now says the fee is set by the HCJDC, and the law works them to charge a fee that is resonabel, so cost + processing costs (employee time, equipment maintainer ect....) $42 is actually lower then the the expected rate which was over $60

The $13 is not for fingerpringing, that's the fee charged by the FBI for enrollment into rapback,

The HRD now says the fee is set by the HCJDC, and the law works them to charge a fee that is resonabel, so cost + processing costs (employee time, equipment maintainer ect....) $42 is actually lower then the the expected rate which was over $60

yes, i understand that the fee for the FBI fingerprinting is a different fee from the FBI fee for enrollment into rap back.  the statute previously said that the only fee required was a one-time fee equal to the amount actually charged by the FBI for fingerprinting (which i think was like $14 or $16).  that language has since been removed.

under the revised HRS section, the fee owed is equal to the amount charged by the HCJDC for the HCJDC's processing of requests.  the problem is that I'm not really sure what the $42 fee is comprised of.  I could guess at what things might be summed together to result in a $42 fee, but i don't have any more information than that.

I think that it would be ultra vires for the HCJDC to charge fees in excess of the fees listed in the HAR that i had previously provided a link for.  like i said earlier, HRS §846-2.7 is partially an enabling statute, but the HCJDC fees must still be set and noticed ("notice" in this case means legal notice) through HAR.  in other words, the HCJDC can charge those fees, or a combination of those fees listed in the HAR, but they can't start charging "processing costs" on a whim, and without first amending the HAR to reflect the same.

this is probably my fault for not saying this right off the bat, but the point that i've been trying to make this whole time is that this new law is pretty much a tax, and there doesn't seem to be any exceptions to it.

it has been famously said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy."  i can't think of a whole lot of other rights recognized under the Bill of Rights that are regularly taxed.  as an example, can you imagine the public uproar if the government required permitting and registration fees (or taxes) for exercise of the first amendment rights (e.g. freedom of speech, or the freedom of association)?  generally i can understand the rationale behind requiring registration, but taxation probably crosses the threshold into the realm of being unconstitutional.

edit:  i should probably add that this fee/tax has many other implications.  for example, think of the fees that are associated with the judiciary system (e.g. court fees).  when indigent parties want to access the court system, the Constitution requires that they be provided access.  so if an indigent person is below a certain threshold, that person's court fees will be waived.  in some sense this acts to increase the accessibility for all individuals regardless of their financial situation.

as a parallel back to our topic at hand, there doesn't seem to be exceptions to the HCJDC fees.  because of this, i would argue that the State has effectively made firearm ownership only available to the "rich" and, therefore, indigent persons have a clear financial barrier.  given that SCOTUS has recognized the Second Amendment as an individual right, and subsequently incorporated it though the Fourteenth, any kind of state taxation would probably be a clear infringement of that right.

of course you could argue that $42 isn't that much money at all, but money is valued differently to different people.  obviously "value" has some correlation to socio-economic status, but there is also some correlation to an individual's percentage of Pake blood.

The person I know in the firearms business yesterday informed me that he hadn't heard anything about RapBack in Hilo yet, so I decided to call just a few minutes ago:

[I'm not making this up!]

Me: Have you begun the RapBack enrollment yet?

Hawaii County Police Department Firearms Registration (Hilo)(HCFR): No.

Me: Do you know when you are going to start it?

HCFR: No. They haven't told us yet. When we're told, they will put something out about it.

Me: Do you know how much it is going to cost?

HCFR: No. We don't know anything about it. I know they started it on Oahu, but we haven't heard anything.

Me: Um, so who is it that is going to tell you about it?

HCFR: I really don't know.

Me: (laughing) So you don't know anything about it and you don't know who is going to tell you about it or when?

HCFR: (laughing) That's right! We won't know anything until someone tells us.

* * * * *

I really wish I'd recorded that. It was really funny.

The person I know in the firearms business yesterday informed me that he hadn't heard anything about RapBack in Hilo yet, so I decided to call just a few minutes ago:

[I'm not making this up!]

Me: Have you begun the RapBack enrollment yet?

Hawaii County Police Department Firearms Registration (Hilo)(HCFR): No.

Me: Do you know when you are going to start it?

HCFR: No. They haven't told us yet. When we're told, they will put something out about it.

Me: Do you know how much it is going to cost?

HCFR: No. We don't know anything about it. I know they started it on Oahu, but we haven't heard anything.

Me: Um, so who is it that is going to tell you about it?

HCFR: I really don't know.

Me: (laughing) So you don't know anything about it and you don't know who is going to tell you about it or when?

HCFR: (laughing) That's right! We won't know anything until someone tells us.

* * * * *

I really wish I'd recorded that. It was really funny.

Actually, I think it is kinda sad. Pathetic. And typical for Hawaii. I am surprised the he even knew what Rap Back was/is.

Actually, I think it is kinda sad. Pathetic. And typical for Hawaii. I am surprised the he even knew what Rap Back was/is.

Hey Dave, hope the recovery is on or ahead of schedule.

I don't want to identify anyone, but the person I spoke to on the phone was female (I believe the entire staff there is female).

Yeah, it's somewhere between pathetic and ludicrous, but not any more so than the rest of the situations regarding Second Amendment rights in this banana republic of a state. Four CCW licenses in 17 years? How can they even pretend (with a straight face) the right to bear arms is lawfully recognized and allowed here? And the two licenses that we have any information about were both issued unlawfully for terms less than one year, one to a judge, and the other for nine days (and they may have also been a government employee). The anomaly here is when the government does something without lying, incompetence or corruption. Usually I can feel my blood pressure rise and the mild sensation of imminent cerebral explosion, but this time (you had to be there) it was just plain funny... .and the person I was speaking to also found it humorous (in it's absurdity).

Hey Dave, hope the recovery is on or ahead of schedule.

I don't want to identify anyone, but the person I spoke to on the phone was female (I believe the entire staff there is female).

Yeah, it's somewhere between pathetic and ludicrous, but not any more so than the rest of the situations regarding Second Amendment rights in this banana republic of a state. Four CCW licenses in 17 years? How can they even pretend (with a straight face) the right to bear arms is lawfully recognized and allowed here? And the two licenses that we have any information about were both issued unlawfully for terms less than one year, one to a judge, and the other for nine days (and they may have also been a government employee). The anomaly here is when the government does something without lying, incompetence or corruption. Usually I can feel my blood pressure rise and the mild sensation of imminent cerebral explosion, but this time (you had to be there) it was just plain funny... .and the person I was speaking to also found it humorous (in it's absurdity).

Thanks for well wishes. I really appreciate it.

When I first arrived on the Big Island I brought in all of my guns to be registered to the Hilo office. It is pretty much all women in there. The only male was the one officer that inspected all my firearms to make sure they were unloaded and he brought them in to the woman who wrote up all the registration slips.

What you wrote here is truly funny as it made me laugh. And I find it harder every day to laugh at the inadequacy of our government. But after I laughed I also sighed and then wrote what I posted earlier.

Unfortunately, I decided to renew my rifle permit this week. 

so has anyone here "experienced" the rap back? fees charged and different procedure? i haven't heard of anyone's experience with this.

so has anyone here "experienced" the rap back? fees charged and different procedure? i haven't heard of anyone's experience with this.

My GF is experienced,    I have yet to bend over.

When I spoke with someone at the Hilo station (when I registered my lower a few weeks ago), they basically said the same thing that Inspector posted above.  They didn't really know much about what was going on for Hilo. They only know what they're told from above them, which at that point was nothing other than it'll be "soon" but no definite timeline. Honestly, it was a nice chat. Very friendly folks here. They just don't get the details for this until it happens lol.

so has anyone here "experienced" the rap back? fees charged and different procedure? i haven't heard of anyone's experience with this.

I have, I went to HPD, stood in line, a luitent (I believe) came put to tell people they need to pay $42. I told him he was wrong and that it was only for first time applicants. Then I had the major (top guy in the firearms decision) come out to me and ask what I'm planing on doing, I told him I'm not paying the fee, he told me I won't be getting A permit, he left came back about 4-5 minutes latter he then implied they could arrest me if I video tape in the room with the window, told Him I was audio recording but if I wanted to video I could as it's an area open to the public.

Got to the window was given the forms and asked for $42, I told them I was not paying, they told me to fill out the forms, I asked who issued the rapback forms and if they were approved by the AG, was told no they come from the FBI, I told them I can't sign them then, was told to fill out the other forms. Turnt them in was was told to come back in 2 weeks.

Just so you guys are aware that's the 3rd time HPD has threatened or implied they will/may/can arrest me for them violating my rights.