All References to ‘Climate Change’ Deleted From White House Website at Noon Toda (Read 102801 times)

drck1000

This


Also a quick 4 question thing I thought up while on my work break.

Do you beleive burning fossil fuels releases CO2 into the aphmosphere?

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11

Do you beleive that co2 is a greenhouse gas?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-carbon-dioxide-is-greenhouse-gas/

Do you beleive in the green house effect?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/grnhse.html

Do you believe that humans burning fossil fuels has an effect on earth?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11638-climate-myths-human-co2-emissions-are-too-tiny-to-matter/

IF yes answered yes to all of these congrats you probably beleive in climate change.  If you dont plz link stuff disproving said questions.


On a side note.  I am curious on all you climate change deniers views on evolution and vaccines.
You were discussing things based on facts, asking others to provide facts, and then this one is about what individuals believe.  Science and beliefs, while not mutually exclusive, aren't typically used on same sides of arguments.  Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think asking someone what their beliefs are won't really have an impact on the facts that are being debated.  "I know what I know, don't confuse me with the facts. . . "

----------------------------------------------------

Regarding climate change in general, I attended an engineering conference for military engineers in the Pacific region about 3 years ago.  Climate change was touched upon, which I really didn't pay much attention at the time, but the high priority topic was as climate change in the context of sea level rise.  Sea level rise has been documented over the past many years.  Interestingly, even the phenomenon of sea level rise has doubters.  That said, the data has proven that sea level rise in the Pacific is real.  Don't believe them, build a house on some of the islands or atolls in the south Pacific and one would see more clearly that it is real.  It may take a few years, but if the recent trends continue, many islands in the south Pacific (and elsewhere in the world) may be completely underwater in the matter of years.  I would have to dig up the data, but I want to say in the next 5-10 years for some locations. 

Personally, I haven't done enough research on climate change and all of the issues to be informed myself.  So to that end, I'll just go back to being an observer. . .

passivekinetic

climate change deniers is not really accurate. I am a skeptic.

I am made skeptical because I have read/hear from others with information that made me skeptical.

We are meant to swallow wholesale some things, such as evolution and vaccines, when the issue is more intricate than presented.

Vaccines, I believe the science works well (stimulate immune response). I also believe some ingredients in vaccines (adjuvants) can cause harm to certain people. Terrible, catastrophic harm. The adjuvants issue is also a separate issue from vaccine contamination. Both these two VERY SERIOUS issues are being brushed aside in the race to get people to choose whether vaccines are good or not, black and white. Therefore MANDATORY vaccination is TOTALLY a travesty and infringement on security of a person's own integrity.

If people want to get vaccinated, by all means inject yourself. No "herd immunity" nonsense. If the vaccines work, they should work to protect you. Period. Forcing others to be vaccinated is the same as forcing them to pay taxes to support other people's causes.

On evolution and creation, who really knows. The universe is huge. Evolution as a process makes sense (natural selection). But who's to say how the first creatures were created? There is no proof either way. So it is a theory. As a theory, it should be treated as a theory and not as absolute truth.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

passivekinetic

By the way, some food for thought:

1) CO2 has boosted a lot of vegetation growth due to increased photosynthesis. By some measures, there is significantly more vegetation in some places on the planet. This also means the CO2 has been converted into plant food, and oxygen released.

2) Solar radiation has been theorized to cause global warming. The theorists who propose this wonder if solar system wide heating is a phenomenon. It makes sense that the sun could go on a solar cycle. If the cause of climate change was solar warming, then there is nothing that the governments in the world can do. And this would cause people to panic. It may be better to create a sense of control so as to give people a feeling of manageability. (This is a theory only, not necessarily what I believe, but again, putting it out there some alternative scenarios instead of the black/white picture being painted for us by the mainstream).
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

omnigun

Your view is backed by junk science disguising a money grab in the trillions over time.

You are using emotional appeals (we all live in the world ... if it dies, we die) because your so-called facts do not stand up to scrutiny on their own.

Taxes for roads are mandated for the good of all.  We have an interstate highway system that transports goods and people everyday.  I may not personally drive every road my money helped build, but someone might be hauling fuel or cars or lawnmowers I DO use.  As long as we all benefit, there is no need for direct use.

You are once again asking for proof something doesn't exist.  I would ask if you are an atheist?  Do you have proof God does not exist? 

As I said, the junk science that created models of an ice age beginning 10 years ago were wrong, so they "modified" the data to include "pauses."  Basically, the models are right in their minds, but the real numbers failed to follow them.  Obviously Mother Nature is a shitty scientist if she can't follow a perfect model 97% of human scientists agree upon!

I'm asking for proof it DOESN'T exist.  So far I have literally given you proof it DOES.   So far you called all my proof "junk science"  while providing nothing proving otherwise.  Emotional appeals are apart of being human.  Mine is backed with science and fact that's all.  We ALL live on this earth we all use earths resources to survive.  Paying something to preserve that is perfectly normal much like a road.  Are you telling me you don't use the earth?  You don't breath its air, drink its water? 
You keep saying junk science with no proof what so ever.  I've never heard of these ice age beginning model stuff you are talking about.  Its definitely not a well agreed-ed upon theory.  I literally have given you the most simplified facts that you are ignoring its laughable.  Man makes co2, co2 is a greenhouse gas,  greenhouse gas effects earths climate.  Its a three step process.  Yes I do agree we don't know everything about earth we are not an advanced enough civilization to master our planet yet.  If we knew everything we could control the weather etc. What we do know is the facts before us.  We know the climate is changing, we know we are semi/mostly at fault. We don't know exactly how it will effect us other than it being bad in the end.  Many people are trying to predict whats going to happen.  Many are wrong.  Maybe this is related to this ice age theory you keep spouting about.  But in the end its not good.  Look at venus and what co2 gases can do with a run away greenhouse effect.

climate change deniers is not really accurate. I am a skeptic.

I am made skeptical because I have read/hear from others with information that made me skeptical.

We are meant to swallow wholesale some things, such as evolution and vaccines, when the issue is more intricate than presented.

Vaccines, I believe the science works well (stimulate immune response). I also believe some ingredients in vaccines (adjuvants) can cause harm to certain people. Terrible, catastrophic harm. The adjuvants issue is also a separate issue from vaccine contamination. Both these two VERY SERIOUS issues are being brushed aside in the race to get people to choose whether vaccines are good or not, black and white. Therefore MANDATORY vaccination is TOTALLY a travesty and infringement on security of a person's own integrity.

If people want to get vaccinated, by all means inject yourself. No "herd immunity" nonsense. If the vaccines work, they should work to protect you. Period. Forcing others to be vaccinated is the same as forcing them to pay taxes to support other people's causes.

On evolution and creation, who really knows. The universe is huge. Evolution as a process makes sense (natural selection). But who's to say how the first creatures were created? There is no proof either way. So it is a theory. As a theory, it should be treated as a theory and not as absolute truth.

Vaccines work by herd immunity (https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/52/7/911/299077/Herd-Immunity-A-Rough-Guide) its too many people opt out it basically fucks over everyone.   Who wants polio anymore?  I'm not sure why you deny science once again.  Vaccines are not 100% effective.  Its why you can still get minor cases of chicken pox, flu, etc.  Its ment to help. There are things that are done for the greater good that is part of life.  All citizens have ID numbers,  we all can be drafted,  we all pay taxes,  we are all susceptible to warrants with reason etc.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 01:37:58 PM by omnigun »

omnigun

By the way, some food for thought:

1) CO2 has boosted a lot of vegetation growth due to increased photosynthesis. By some measures, there is significantly more vegetation in some places on the planet. This also means the CO2 has been converted into plant food, and oxygen released.

2) Solar radiation has been theorized to cause global warming. The theorists who propose this wonder if solar system wide heating is a phenomenon. It makes sense that the sun could go on a solar cycle. If the cause of climate change was solar warming, then there is nothing that the governments in the world can do. And this would cause people to panic. It may be better to create a sense of control so as to give people a feeling of manageability. (This is a theory only, not necessarily what I believe, but again, putting it out there some alternative scenarios instead of the black/white picture being painted for us by the mainstream).

We are also deforesting the rain forests for wood.  So while the globe may be getting slightly greener it does not make up for all the co2 we are releasing into the air.  Its a losing battle at our current rate.  Solar radiation may play a small role as the sun is more active but it doesn't discount the air samples of co2 and other greenhouse gases taken.  No amount of solar radiation will effect those levels.  Its not volcano's before you start saying that. 

You were discussing things based on facts, asking others to provide facts, and then this one is about what individuals believe.  Science and beliefs, while not mutually exclusive, aren't typically used on same sides of arguments.  Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think asking someone what their beliefs are won't really have an impact on the facts that are being debated.  "I know what I know, don't confuse me with the facts. . . "

That was a side part to try and understand their viewpoint.  I tend to find those opinions related and shared among many people with the same view points.   Science points both to evolution, vaccines being safe and that climate change is real.  Do deny all three means you deny science.  To deny one and accept others opens you up to being hypocritical, etc. 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 01:41:37 PM by omnigun »

passivekinetic

Vaccines work by herd immunity (https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/52/7/911/299077/Herd-Immunity-A-Rough-Guide) its too many people opt out it basically fucks over everyone.   Who wants polio anymore?  I'm not sure why you deny science once again.  Vaccines are not 100% effective.  Its why you can still get minor cases of chicken pox, flu, etc.  Its ment to help. There are things that are done for the greater good that is part of life.  All citizens have ID numbers,  we all can be drafted,  we all pay taxes,  we are all susceptible to warrants with reason etc.

Ok, so what do we do about the random numbers of people who can be paralyzed if they get injected?

If someone does not want to take that risk, or for their kids to take that risk, are they forced to take the risk and roll the dice, at gunpoint?
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

macsak

We are also deforesting the rain forests for wood.  So while the globe may be getting slightly greener it does not make up for all the co2 we are releasing into the air.  Its a losing battle at our current rate.  Solar radiation may play a small role as the sun is more active but it doesn't discount the air samples of co2 and other greenhouse gases taken.  No amount of solar radiation will effect those levels.  Its not volcano's before you start saying that. 

That was a side part to try and understand their viewpoint.  I tend to find those opinions related and shared among many people with the same view points.   Science points both to evolution, vaccines being safe and that climate change is real.  Do deny all three means you deny science.  To deny one and accept others opens you up to being hypocritical, etc.

wait, you claim to have done all this research and you don't know that a decade or two ago people thought we were going to go into a new ice age?
and you don't know that the term "climate change" came about because people disproved "global warming"?
or that the temperature of the earth has always fluctuated?

passivekinetic

We are also deforesting the rain forests for wood.  So while the globe may be getting slightly greener it does not make up for all the co2 we are releasing into the air.  Its a losing battle at our current rate.  Solar radiation may play a small role as the sun is more active but it doesn't discount the air samples of co2 and other greenhouse gases taken.  No amount of solar radiation will effect those levels.  Its not volcano's before you start saying that.

I came across studies that show ice core samples do not support the modern climate change theory. That is also scientific data.

This is why I said I have been made skeptical over time. Not all the data supports the theory, and the data that does not support it, is brushed aside and ignored.

The deforestation is another issue. Maybe we need to focus on stopping deforestation then? We are focused on the wrong thing maybe, putting all this money and effort toward examining CO2 emissions.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

drck1000

Re: All References to ‘Climate Change’ Deleted From White House Website
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2017, 01:57:25 PM »

That was a side part to try and understand their viewpoint.  I tend to find those opinions related and shared among many people with the same view points.   Science points both to evolution, vaccines being safe and that climate change is real.  Do deny all three means you deny science.  To deny one and accept others opens you up to being hypocritical, etc.

I see.  Good that you are trying to see things from a differing perspective.  Many people even can't even seem to look at points from different perspectives. 

Much of that kind of discussion gives me a headache, which is a big part of why I hate politics and religion.  Actually, I had to take religious studies in a Jesuit college and while I didn't grow up in a church going family, I found those discussions enlightening.  At least when I college.  Since then, mostly just gives me a headache.  That's mostly on me as I am not disciplined enough to be informed and thus I tend to stay away. 

One part of the discussion that I also noticed above was "I'm asking for proof it DOESN'T exist".  Again, something that gave me a headache when discussing with an attorney, who actually is one of my best friends.  Look up "proving non-existence" and stuff like "evidence of absence" and "absence of evidence".  I'm not really on either side here, but just pointing out things that I see as more of an observer. 

Flapp_Jackson

I'm asking for proof it DOESN'T exist.  So far I have literally given you proof it DOES.   So far you called all my proof "junk science"  while providing nothing proving otherwise.  Emotional appeals are apart of being human.  Mine is backed with science and fact that's all.  We ALL live on this earth we all use earths resources to survive.  Paying something to preserve that is perfectly normal much like a road.  Are you telling me you don't use the earth?  You don't breath its air, drink its water? 
You keep saying junk science with no proof what so ever.  I've never heard of these ice age beginning model stuff you are talking about.  Its definitely not a well agreed-ed upon theory.  I literally have given you the most simplified facts that you are ignoring its laughable.  Man makes co2, co2 is a greenhouse gas,  greenhouse gas effects earths climate.  Its a three step process.  Yes I do agree we don't know everything about earth we are not an advanced enough civilization to master our planet yet.  If we knew everything we could control the weather etc. What we do know is the facts before us.  We know the climate is changing, we know we are semi/mostly at fault. We don't know exactly how it will effect us other than it being bad in the end.  Many people are trying to predict whats going to happen.  Many are wrong.  Maybe this is related to this ice age theory you keep spouting about.  But in the end its not good.  Look at venus and what co2 gases can do with a run away greenhouse effect.

Vaccines work by herd immunity (https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/52/7/911/299077/Herd-Immunity-A-Rough-Guide) its too many people opt out it basically fucks over everyone.   Who wants polio anymore?  I'm not sure why you deny science once again.  Vaccines are not 100% effective.  Its why you can still get minor cases of chicken pox, flu, etc.  Its ment to help. There are things that are done for the greater good that is part of life.  All citizens have ID numbers,  we all can be drafted,  we all pay taxes,  we are all susceptible to warrants with reason etc.

Do you deny the models predicting global cooling, then global warming, and now climate change have all failed in their predictions?  If not, then why were "pauses" added?  You realize there is only about 150 years of temperature measurements at most to study, so when the "scientists" say things like "warmest day on record", we are talking about an insignificant period of time?  The Earth changes over eons, not months, and not in a few human generations.  Drawing on such a limited sample and period flies in the face of true science when drawing conclusions about climate.  Our scientists can't predict the weather next week with any real accuracy.  And we are supposed to trust they can do that over decades?  Centuries?   :rofl:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

passivekinetic

To deny one and accept others opens you up to being hypocritical, etc.

Exactly!!!

This is exactly why SCIENTIFIC DATA that does NOT support man made climate change cannot be ignored.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

passivekinetic

There are also PHILOSOPHICAL issues here regarding vaccinations, etc.

In American society, we give great value to the individual as opposed to the collective.

The vaccination thing is, fuck the individual. If he gets paralyzed so be it. We need herd immunity.

This is socialism (a.k.a. communism). The commune is of higher importance than the individual.

We would rather allow 9 guilty men to go free instead of incarcerate 1 innocent person. Or this is how American society is supposed to be.

American society is very different from many other countries and we must be vigilant about protecting it (this mandatory vaccines thing is precisely attacking this core American principle).
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

macsak

omnigun, if you are a "scientist at heart", and want people to listen to/accept your evidence, perhaps you can take your english/communications skills to heart also

no proof what so ever.
its laughable
You don't breath its air, drink its water?
Emotional appeals are apart of being human.
its not good
Like ive been saying my view is backed with facts
its too many people opt out it basically fucks over everyone
effect
volcano's
Do deny all three means you deny science.

punaperson

Determining all the causal drivers of "climate change", and to what extent each influence climate is a VERY complex question. As much as many people would like a simple answer (e.g. man-made CO2 emissions are the causal factor/problem and thus decreasing those will fix "the problem"), most of the more "honest" experts are willing to acknowledge that it's NOT that simple.

As for science in general, and in particular on the point of any purported, or real, "scientific consensus", a good point made by writer Michael Crichton:

"Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics.  Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world.  In science, consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus."

Japanese scientist Kiminori Itoh is the author of Lies and Traps in the Global Warming Affair. Like many others, Itoh does not reject the notion of global warming entirely, but instead claims that the causes are far more complex than the anti-carbon crowd would have you believe.

Australian professor Ian Plimer is the author of Heaven + Earth, a book that purports to debunk all of the major global warming "myths." "The Earth is an evolving dynamic system. Current changes in climate, sea level and ice are within variability. Atmospheric CO2 is the lowest for 500 million years. Climate has always been driven by the Sun, the Earth’s orbit and plate tectonics and the oceans, atmosphere and life respond. Humans have made their mark on the planet, thrived in warm times and struggled in cool times. The hypothesis tha humans can actually change climate is unsupported by evidence from geology, archaeology, history and astronomy. The hypothesis is rejected. A new ignorance fills the yawning spiritual gap in Western society. Climate change politics is religious fundamentalism masquerading as science. Its triumph is computer models unrelated to observations in nature. There has been no critical due diligence of the science of climate change, dogma dominates, sceptics are pilloried and 17th Century thinking promotes prophets of doom, guilt and penance. When plate tectonics ceases and the world runs out of new rocks, there will be a tipping point and irreversible climate change. Don’t wait up."

Will Happer is a highly-respected physicist out of Princeton who compares the anti-CO2 crowd to the prohibitionists prior to the passage of the 18th Amendment. While he does acknowledge long-term warming, he thinks the influence of CO2 is vastly overstated, and that the benefits of a modest reduction in it will be negligible.

In testimony to Congress, he used the following analogy to explain what he means:

"The earth's climate really is strongly affected by the greenhouse effect, although the physics is not the same as that which makes real, glassed-in greenhouses work. Without greenhouse warming, the earth would be much too cold to sustain its current abundance of life. However, at least 90% of greenhouse warming is due to water vapor and clouds. Carbon dioxide is a bit player. There is little argument in the scientific community that a direct effect of doubling the CO2 concentration will be a small increase of the earth's temperature -- on the order of one degree. Additional increments of CO2 will cause relatively less direct warming because we already have so much CO2 in the atmosphere that it has blocked most of the infrared radiation that it can. It is like putting an additional ski hat on your head when you already have a nice warm one below it, but your are only wearing a windbreaker. To really get warmer, you need to add a warmer jacket. The IPCC thinks that this extra jacket is water vapor and clouds."

Ivar Giaever, a Nobel Prize winner in physics, isn't a thought leader, per se, in the climate skeptics scene -- but the mere fact that he has come out as being a skeptic and has a Nobel Prize makes him important. His big beef is that climate change orthodoxy has become a "new religion" for scientists, and that the data isn't nearly as compelling as it should be to get this kind of conformity.

Physicist Freeman Dyson has been a giant in his field for decades. But the British-born, Princeton-based professor has gained notoriety for his "heretical" views on climate change. While he does acknowledge the mechanism by which man-made greenhouse gasses can influence the climate, he claims current models are way too simplistic to capture what's really going on in the real world.

Read this by a climate science professor who quit academia over the issues related to "climate science" in the academic science setting:  https://judithcurry.com/2017/01/03/jc-in-transition/#more-22651

Website by a climate scientist that attempts to simplify some of the scientific questions for the layperson (posts going back to 2008): http://www.drroyspencer.com/my-global-warming-skepticism-for-dummies/

Predictions: Al Gore on January 26, 2006 predicted that unless immediate drastic action was taken to combat CO2 emissioins in 10 years "a true planetary emergency" would occur, including what "CBS News reported at the time that Gore’s film predicted the worst-case scenarios would be a new ice age in Europe, massive floods in China, India, and other areas." That means that for his "scientific" predictions to be validated there are going to be some hellaciously fast moving glaciers in Europe and big time flooding in at least China and India IN THE NEXT THREE DAYS! I'll be checking the news for sure!

http://www.climatedepot.com/2017/01/22/inconvenient-question-gore-asked-about-failed-10-year-tipping-point-refuses-to-answer-enters-suv-in-snow/

General sites looking at "contrary" data:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/

http://www.climatedepot.com/

And, unless you're an extremely fast reader, there is enough material on this to occupy you for years:

http://www.climatechangefacts.info/

The first two paragraphs of literally thousands:

The Global Warming Debate - The Facts

Virtually all scientists agree that the Earth has warmed a small amount since the year 1000 or, if you choose, since 1850, when instrumented temperature records became reasonably accurate and distributed in key areas of the world. An increasing number believe that any warming is so small it is indistinguishable from the noise in the environmenal data sets, and that the data have not been properly adjusted for such things as urban heat island effects (are the city temps warmer than the suburbs where you live? Has the city grown since 1850? Have the runways increased near the temp gage at your airport since 1920?), and instrument calibration. This is particularly true of the global data set, even though "urbanization has caused regional increases in temperature that exceed those measured on a global scale, leading to urban heat islands as much as 12°C hotter than their surroundings". Most scientists agree that warming is better than cooling and many believe CO2 provides important enhancements for forests and agriculture, even while also believing we should not be fouling our nest.

Our site makes every effort to present the true science of climate change. When the news broke of the Arctic ice being at its 30 year low in 2007, the same source (U. of Illinois) reported the Antarctic at its record high, but this was not reported in the media. To show the imbalance, as one reads in the popular press, we have created a companion site that presents the evidence for global cooling, just as most newspapers and alarmists present only the science that supports warming. There are many reasons to be cautious about accepting CO2 as the causative agent if there really is warming. This is highlighted by 2 papers published in March 2008. Scafetta and West showed that up to 69% of observed warming is from the sun and Ramanathan and Carmichael show that soot has 60% of the warming power of CO2. They claim both factors are underappreciated by IPCC. Many scientists believe the temperature changes are more dependent on the sun than CO2, similar to the relationship in your home with your furnace. The soot may well explain much of the Arctic melting, as it has recently for Asian glaciers.



omnigun

Ok, so what do we do about the random numbers of people who can be paralyzed if they get injected?

If someone does not want to take that risk, or for their kids to take that risk, are they forced to take the risk and roll the dice, at gunpoint?

To be frank, Yes.  You are welcome to leave or be quarantined.  If you want willfully cause a public danger by not getting vaccines its no better than someone with small pox walking around cause you believe its your right.  You are dangerous to others. You are now infringing on my right to be healthy.  I have upheld my duty as a good citizen to have all vaccines.  I have not spread any diseases to others.


wait, you claim to have done all this research and you don't know that a decade or two ago people thought we were going to go into a new ice age?
and you don't know that the term "climate change" came about because people disproved "global warming"?
or that the temperature of the earth has always fluctuated?

That happened sorta before my time, I'm not THAT old.  Those were all theories even now we don't know what effect there will be on earth.  We are only guessing what bad stuff will occur.  The only thing we do know for fact is something bad will happen.  Global warming was never a good term to use.  The globe is indeed warming but its more climate change as not areas are effected equally.

I came across studies that show ice core samples do not support the modern climate change theory. That is also scientific data.

This is why I said I have been made skeptical over time. Not all the data supports the theory, and the data that does not support it, is brushed aside and ignored.

The deforestation is another issue. Maybe we need to focus on stopping deforestation then? We are focused on the wrong thing maybe, putting all this money and effort toward examining CO2 emissions.

Please show these studies.  Until then its all FAKE NEWS. lol  Yes we should stop deforestation but that won't solve everything.  The fact that we are producing so much CO2 is the problem.

passivekinetic

To be frank, Yes.  You are welcome to leave or be quarantined.  If you want willfully cause a public danger by not getting vaccines its no better than someone with small pox walking around cause you believe its your right.  You are dangerous to others. You are now infringing on my right to be healthy.  I have upheld my duty as a good citizen to have all vaccines.  I have not spread any diseases to others.

Dude, you may need to some time to think about this.

But what you stated is exactly why we have the 2nd Amendment.

Let me give you another example: You and your family have certain genes that the government has determined to be detrimental to the human gene pool (doesn't matter how they determined that). You are therefore a threat to humanity. You must all be sterilized. (This was done actually several times, sometimes in Europe, sometimes in America, in the past).

Also, your example is not a good one. Someone with small pox is KNOWN to have small pox. That is totally different from someone who is taking a risk because he or she MIGHT contract a disease.

Also, people with guns MAY accidentally shoot another citizen. Therefore, all firearms MUST be banned because any gun is a RISK to other people in society.

Also cars. Cars MAY accidentally injure or kill another innocent civilian.

Heck, let's profile all HIGH RISK individuals (such as those who have guns, or cling to their bibles and constitutions).

I hope you see I am not exaggerating, and I am showing you clearly what is wrong with your line of thinking.

In fact this whole vaccine thing is precisely to make a precedent for socialization of America.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

omnigun

Do you deny the models predicting global cooling, then global warming, and now climate change have all failed in their predictions?  If not, then why were "pauses" added?  You realize there is only about 150 years of temperature measurements at most to study, so when the "scientists" say things like "warmest day on record", we are talking about an insignificant period of time?  The Earth changes over eons, not months, and not in a few human generations.  Drawing on such a limited sample and period flies in the face of true science when drawing conclusions about climate.  Our scientists can't predict the weather next week with any real accuracy.  And we are supposed to trust they can do that over decades?  Centuries?   :rofl:

From my little research on this.  It appears you are referring to the 70's were scientists were trying to predict stuff they fully didnt understand.  Science has come a long way.  What they did know back then was something was changing with the climate and the changes were happening recently.  This is when humans started to really affect the earths climate.  For example aresol sprays.
This a good read on that http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GISSTemperature/giss_temperature2.php?src=share

omnigun

omnigun, if you are a "scientist at heart", and want people to listen to/accept your evidence, perhaps you can take your english/communications skills to heart also

no proof what so ever.
its laughable
You don't breath its air, drink its water?
Emotional appeals are apart of being human.
its not good
Like ive been saying my view is backed with facts
its too many people opt out it basically fucks over everyone
effect
volcano's
Do deny all three means you deny science.

English ain't my strongest suit.  Plus I type stuff on my phone sometimes. No ones perfect. 

omnigun

Determining all the causal drivers of "climate change", and to what extent each influence climate is a VERY complex question. As much as many people would like a simple answer (e.g. man-made CO2 emissions are the causal factor/problem and thus decreasing those will fix "the problem"), most of the more "honest" experts are willing to acknowledge that it's NOT that simple.

As for science in general, and in particular on the point of any purported, or real, "scientific consensus", a good point made by writer Michael Crichton:

"Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics.  Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world.  In science, consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus."

Japanese scientist Kiminori Itoh is the author of Lies and Traps in the Global Warming Affair. Like many others, Itoh does not reject the notion of global warming entirely, but instead claims that the causes are far more complex than the anti-carbon crowd would have you believe.

Australian professor Ian Plimer is the author of Heaven + Earth, a book that purports to debunk all of the major global warming "myths." "The Earth is an evolving dynamic system. Current changes in climate, sea level and ice are within variability. Atmospheric CO2 is the lowest for 500 million years. Climate has always been driven by the Sun, the Earth’s orbit and plate tectonics and the oceans, atmosphere and life respond. Humans have made their mark on the planet, thrived in warm times and struggled in cool times. The hypothesis tha humans can actually change climate is unsupported by evidence from geology, archaeology, history and astronomy. The hypothesis is rejected. A new ignorance fills the yawning spiritual gap in Western society. Climate change politics is religious fundamentalism masquerading as science. Its triumph is computer models unrelated to observations in nature. There has been no critical due diligence of the science of climate change, dogma dominates, sceptics are pilloried and 17th Century thinking promotes prophets of doom, guilt and penance. When plate tectonics ceases and the world runs out of new rocks, there will be a tipping point and irreversible climate change. Don’t wait up."

Will Happer is a highly-respected physicist out of Princeton who compares the anti-CO2 crowd to the prohibitionists prior to the passage of the 18th Amendment. While he does acknowledge long-term warming, he thinks the influence of CO2 is vastly overstated, and that the benefits of a modest reduction in it will be negligible.

In testimony to Congress, he used the following analogy to explain what he means:

"The earth's climate really is strongly affected by the greenhouse effect, although the physics is not the same as that which makes real, glassed-in greenhouses work. Without greenhouse warming, the earth would be much too cold to sustain its current abundance of life. However, at least 90% of greenhouse warming is due to water vapor and clouds. Carbon dioxide is a bit player. There is little argument in the scientific community that a direct effect of doubling the CO2 concentration will be a small increase of the earth's temperature -- on the order of one degree. Additional increments of CO2 will cause relatively less direct warming because we already have so much CO2 in the atmosphere that it has blocked most of the infrared radiation that it can. It is like putting an additional ski hat on your head when you already have a nice warm one below it, but your are only wearing a windbreaker. To really get warmer, you need to add a warmer jacket. The IPCC thinks that this extra jacket is water vapor and clouds."

Ivar Giaever, a Nobel Prize winner in physics, isn't a thought leader, per se, in the climate skeptics scene -- but the mere fact that he has come out as being a skeptic and has a Nobel Prize makes him important. His big beef is that climate change orthodoxy has become a "new religion" for scientists, and that the data isn't nearly as compelling as it should be to get this kind of conformity.

Physicist Freeman Dyson has been a giant in his field for decades. But the British-born, Princeton-based professor has gained notoriety for his "heretical" views on climate change. While he does acknowledge the mechanism by which man-made greenhouse gasses can influence the climate, he claims current models are way too simplistic to capture what's really going on in the real world.

Read this by a climate science professor who quit academia over the issues related to "climate science" in the academic science setting:  https://judithcurry.com/2017/01/03/jc-in-transition/#more-22651

Website by a climate scientist that attempts to simplify some of the scientific questions for the layperson (posts going back to 2008): http://www.drroyspencer.com/my-global-warming-skepticism-for-dummies/

Predictions: Al Gore on January 26, 2006 predicted that unless immediate drastic action was taken to combat CO2 emissioins in 10 years "a true planetary emergency" would occur, including what "CBS News reported at the time that Gore’s film predicted the worst-case scenarios would be a new ice age in Europe, massive floods in China, India, and other areas." That means that for his "scientific" predictions to be validated there are going to be some hellaciously fast moving glaciers in Europe and big time flooding in at least China and India IN THE NEXT THREE DAYS! I'll be checking the news for sure!

http://www.climatedepot.com/2017/01/22/inconvenient-question-gore-asked-about-failed-10-year-tipping-point-refuses-to-answer-enters-suv-in-snow/

General sites looking at "contrary" data:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/

http://www.climatedepot.com/

And, unless you're an extremely fast reader, there is enough material on this to occupy you for years:

http://www.climatechangefacts.info/

The first two paragraphs of literally thousands:

The Global Warming Debate - The Facts

Virtually all scientists agree that the Earth has warmed a small amount since the year 1000 or, if you choose, since 1850, when instrumented temperature records became reasonably accurate and distributed in key areas of the world. An increasing number believe that any warming is so small it is indistinguishable from the noise in the environmenal data sets, and that the data have not been properly adjusted for such things as urban heat island effects (are the city temps warmer than the suburbs where you live? Has the city grown since 1850? Have the runways increased near the temp gage at your airport since 1920?), and instrument calibration. This is particularly true of the global data set, even though "urbanization has caused regional increases in temperature that exceed those measured on a global scale, leading to urban heat islands as much as 12°C hotter than their surroundings". Most scientists agree that warming is better than cooling and many believe CO2 provides important enhancements for forests and agriculture, even while also believing we should not be fouling our nest.

Our site makes every effort to present the true science of climate change. When the news broke of the Arctic ice being at its 30 year low in 2007, the same source (U. of Illinois) reported the Antarctic at its record high, but this was not reported in the media. To show the imbalance, as one reads in the popular press, we have created a companion site that presents the evidence for global cooling, just as most newspapers and alarmists present only the science that supports warming. There are many reasons to be cautious about accepting CO2 as the causative agent if there really is warming. This is highlighted by 2 papers published in March 2008. Scafetta and West showed that up to 69% of observed warming is from the sun and Ramanathan and Carmichael show that soot has 60% of the warming power of CO2. They claim both factors are underappreciated by IPCC. Many scientists believe the temperature changes are more dependent on the sun than CO2, similar to the relationship in your home with your furnace. The soot may well explain much of the Arctic melting, as it has recently for Asian glaciers.

Probably the best website
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

https://www.skepticalscience.com/


Like I said even now we don't know 100% what will happen.   What we do know is we are changing the environment.  And we are almost certain its not for the better.

punaperson

To be frank, Yes.  You are welcome to leave or be quarantined.  If you want willfully cause a public danger by not getting vaccines its no better than someone with small pox walking around cause you believe its your right. You are dangerous to others. You are now infringing on my right to be healthy.  I have upheld my duty as a good citizen to have all vaccines.  I have not spread any diseases to others.
I presume you adopt the same policy regarding all serious communicable diseases including AIDS, right?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:47:11 PM by punaperson »