It is impossible to prove one's participation in a religion, therefore a claim is as good a proof as any. Thus it is unenforceable on anyone who plays the rules.

You say there is no way to get around the requirement, I showed there is. I don't think anything more can be said that would change our minds so I will leave it at that and return to the climate topic of this thread.

You don't go to church, do you?

You don't go to church, do you?

Prove I don't.

Prove I don't.

If you did, you would not make such uninformed, inaccurate statements.

If you did, you would not make such uninformed, inaccurate statements.

I'm not going to let you bait me into another dumb debate. 

I'm not going to let you bait me into another dumb debate. 

You don't need baiting.  Your statements about being unable to establish you follow a bonafide religion has no basis in reality.  I called you on it.  You deflected as usual.

 

You don't need baiting.  Your statements about being unable to establish you follow a bonafide religion has no basis in reality.  I called you on it.  You deflected as usual.

 

Not really you cant technically prove someone believes in something. 

Not really you cant technically prove someone believes in something.

Don't feed the troll. He only cares about personal attacks and tries to devolve a debate into a kid's argument.

There is a very important point being made with all the bullshit going on here

BELIEF
noun
1.an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.,

Some scientists BELIEF that Climate change is real
Some Scientists BELIEF that MAN is the cause of Climate Change
Some people BELIEF in God/religion
Some people BELIEF in Evolution


A belief in something doent make it true, something without definitive evidence that its real makes its a theory.  You cant brain wash people into following something unless you say its a fact so instead of a theory of climate change we have the facts of climate change

In that way Climate change is a lot like religion. At some point someone came up with an idea and started pointing at things and saying Climate change did that.Weak people started believing in it without looking or asking for any evidence other then they were told its true.
Next thing you know millions of people are believing in it and because they want it to be true anything that can be attributed to it is. Warmer weather = climate change, Colder weather = climate change, Wetter = climate change, Dryer = climate change ect.....
Then comes the next step, Any one that talks out against it using evidence is a heaven who must be destroyed, So then people that dont believe in it start going along with it just so they are not persecuted.
 
Climate change is the modern day religion AND thats the only reason people think its real. The weak and the scared going along with it because of a fundamental need to be told what to do and what to think.

Maybe not exactly related, but this discussion reminds me of my experience with back pain.

When I was 25 or 26, I had some experiences with back spasms and pain so debilitating that I couldn't walk without severe pain.  Interestingly, the next episode, I wouldn't sit without severe pain.  I ended up going to see a doctor and x-rays and MRI confirmed herniated disc in the my lower back.  It appeared to be so severe that the MRI tech was surprised that I walked into the MRI lab.  However, my scan also showed calcification buildup on top of the herniated discs, meaning that I probably had that herniated discs many years prior.  All of those years of playing soccer, Judo, snowboarding, etc without any pain. . .

Then I did more research on the phenomenon of back pain.  It appears that back pain is a multi-billion dollar business around the world and particularly in the US.  There was a back pain plague going on, well sort of.  People were going to see doctors with back pain.  Traditional thinking were scans to see what's up and in most of the cases, the scans would show things like herniated discs, spinal stenosis, etc.  So the medical profession started defining those conditions based on what scans showed. 

However, when researchers looked into things further, they found that there were just as many (maybe even more) people who have things like herniated discs without pain.  Well, they weren't "diagnosed" as such because they previously had no reason go get scanned.  While the pain is real, there wasn't a 1 to 1 correlation between what scans showed and what people were experiencing.  In some cases, the fear and worry of pain, the treatments, etc were shown to be the root cause for the pain.

Anyways, my point is that the science appeared to show that herniated discs were the cause of pain.  Then people and even professionals took those facts of the presence of herniated discs and the believe or conclusion developed that herniated discs were the cause of back pain.  As I mentioned above, back pain treatments, both medical, homeopathic, etc is a multi-billion dollar business that is largely based on fear.  Well, if the doctors say it's so, it must be, right?  This remains and there are many who wonder why back pain treatments continue to be mainstream.  Well, it's profitable and easy to get people to believe in that "truth". 

I'm not saying that there aren't physical reasons for back pain.  In my case, things like fracture or other more severe things were ruled out.  Yet, the back pain remained.  The pain was VERY much real and I was a definitely a believer.  However, in MY case, it appears that the science, or I should say theory, of the cause of back pain wasn't correct. 

I'm not saying either way that that is what is going on with climate change.  As I've said previously, I haven't spent the time to research that deeply on the topic. Just relating to my personal experience and my personal belief. 

Maybe not exactly related, but this discussion reminds me of my experience with back pain.

When I was 25 or 26, I had some experiences with back spasms and pain so debilitating that I couldn't walk without severe pain.  Interestingly, the next episode, I wouldn't sit without severe pain.  I ended up going to see a doctor and x-rays and MRI confirmed herniated disc in the my lower back.  It appeared to be so severe that the MRI tech was surprised that I walked into the MRI lab.  However, my scan also showed calcification buildup on top of the herniated discs, meaning that I probably had that herniated discs many years prior.  All of those years of playing soccer, Judo, snowboarding, etc without any pain. . .

Then I did more research on the phenomenon of back pain.  It appears that back pain is a multi-billion dollar business around the world and particularly in the US.  There was a back pain plague going on, well sort of.  People were going to see doctors with back pain.  Traditional thinking were scans to see what's up and in most of the cases, the scans would show things like herniated discs, spinal stenosis, etc.  So the medical profession started defining those conditions based on what scans showed. 

However, when researchers looked into things further, they found that there were just as many (maybe even more) people who have things like herniated discs without pain.  Well, they weren't "diagnosed" as such because they previously had no reason go get scanned.  While the pain is real, there wasn't a 1 to 1 correlation between what scans showed and what people were experiencing.  In some cases, the fear and worry of pain, the treatments, etc were shown to be the root cause for the pain.

Anyways, my point is that the science appeared to show that herniated discs were the cause of pain.  Then people and even professionals took those facts of the presence of herniated discs and the believe or conclusion developed that herniated discs were the cause of back pain.  As I mentioned above, back pain treatments, both medical, homeopathic, etc is a multi-billion dollar business that is largely based on fear.  Well, if the doctors say it's so, it must be, right?  This remains and there are many who wonder why back pain treatments continue to be mainstream.  Well, it's profitable and easy to get people to believe in that "truth". 

I'm not saying that there aren't physical reasons for back pain.  In my case, things like fracture or other more severe things were ruled out.  Yet, the back pain remained.  The pain was VERY much real and I was a definitely a believer.  However, in MY case, it appears that the science, or I should say theory, of the cause of back pain wasn't correct. 

I'm not saying either way that that is what is going on with climate change.  As I've said previously, I haven't spent the time to research that deeply on the topic. Just relating to my personal experience and my personal belief.

I am going through this right now. I fractured my spine in a motorcycle accident 35 years ago. And now the degeneration of my spine is causing me a lot of pain. This is both due to the accident and old age. I am currently seeing a chiropractor which is helping. I still have pain. Just not as bad as before. Plus I have greater movement than before. So it does help. It sure beats a needle injecting steroids in my spine and the inevitable surgery I am probably going to have some day. What I found through my research is though that one of the main causes of back pain is stress. Stress from work, life, whatever. And it doesn't help I am currently on a high stress project right now. I have known many employees that suffered from stress related back pain when all of the x-rays and MRI's could not find a problem. So as much as I was not having a lot of back pain before this project I am on, I started experiencing the terrible pain just a few months ago. Coincidence? Maybe, not sure. I just hope I can get in a few years of retirement before I have to start going through the more invasive stuff.

I am going through this right now. I fractured my spine in a motorcycle accident 35 years ago. And now the degeneration of my spine is causing me a lot of pain. This is both due to the accident and old age. I am currently seeing a chiropractor which is helping. I still have pain. Just not as bad as before. Plus I have greater movement than before. So it does help. It sure beats a needle injecting steroids in my spine and the inevitable surgery I am probably going to have some day. What I found through my research is though that one of the main causes of back pain is stress. Stress from work, life, whatever. And it doesn't help I am currently on a high stress project right now. I have known many employees that suffered from stress related back pain when all of the x-rays and MRI's could not find a problem. So as much as I was not having a lot of back pain before this project I am on, I started experiencing the terrible pain just a few months ago. Coincidence? Maybe, not sure. I just hope I can get in a few years of retirement before I have to start going through the more invasive stuff.

Sorry to hear that you're going through that, particularly if the pain is preventing you from doing things that you enjoy. . .

Part of the research I did was on surgical procedures.  Like spinal fusion, spinal something or other where they remove a part of the vertebrae and do something (I forget what exactly), some arthroscopic procedures (which I considered for a while), etc.  That there a wide range of effectiveness.  Many believed that that's just the chance you take, but a small group looked into whether or not those procedures were "correcting" the cause of the problem.  Again, those procedures very well could have solved the "problems", but for many, like me, there appeared to be more to the story.

Look up tension myositis syndrome.  It describes the condition and also a certain situation or personality type that practically flashed in bright red lights, "THAT'S YOU!".  Anyways, learned about that maybe 15 years ago and haven't really had it that bad since.  Yeah, I still get back pain from overdoing it, or even the occasional back spasm, but they don't last as long. 

It's a belief, but part of the study that spoke to me was why it seemed like back pain affected the age range of late 30s to early 60s (or something like that).  Where back pain actually seemed to drop in the 70s and higher.  Well, the 30s - 60s is typically the most stressful part of one's life, particularly today with "modern society".  It's been a while since I've gone through the stuff, but if you're interested, look up books by Dr. John Sarno. 

Some scientists BELIEF that Climate change is real
Some Scientists BELIEF that MAN is the cause of Climate Change
Some people BELIEF in God/religion
Some people BELIEF in Evolution

3 of these 4 have a majority of affirming facts to back up claims.

On a side note the belief argument came up cause you cant 100% PROVE someone believes in something.  Unless you are the person they could be lieing.

On a side side note. I am not an atheist. I'm agnostic I have no proof that god exists, I have no proof he doesn't.  Thus in the end I will find out when I die what happens.

There is a very important point being made with all the bullshit going on here

BELIEF
noun
1.an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.,

Some scientists BELIEF that Climate change is real
Some Scientists BELIEF that MAN is the cause of Climate Change
Some people BELIEF in God/religion
Some people BELIEF in Evolution


A belief in something doent make it true, something without definitive evidence that its real makes its a theory.  You cant brain wash people into following something unless you say its a fact so instead of a theory of climate change we have the facts of climate change

In that way Climate change is a lot like religion. At some point someone came up with an idea and started pointing at things and saying Climate change did that.Weak people started believing in it without looking or asking for any evidence other then they were told its true.
Next thing you know millions of people are believing in it and because they want it to be true anything that can be attributed to it is. Warmer weather = climate change, Colder weather = climate change, Wetter = climate change, Dryer = climate change ect.....
Then comes the next step, Any one that talks out against it using evidence is a heaven who must be destroyed, So then people that dont believe in it start going along with it just so they are not persecuted.
 
Climate change is the modern day religion AND thats the only reason people think its real. The weak and the scared going along with it because of a fundamental need to be told what to do and what to think.

I don't disagree with your analyses though I disagree with your conclusion. I think the evidence on climate change amounts to much more than just a theory equivalent to the belief in god, and I say this as religious individual.

Furthermore, I think that republicans are the ones more desperately clinging to beliefs on this matter. Case in point: A senator thinks snow in DC disproves global climate change.

I don't disagree with your analyses though I disagree with your conclusion. I think the evidence on climate change amounts to much more than just a theory equivalent to the belief in god, and I say this as religious individual.

Furthermore, I think that republicans are the ones more desperately clinging to beliefs on this matter. Case in point: A senator thinks snow in DC disproves global climate change.

Not trying to be argumentative but I believe that the belief in man having a huge affect on the climate is 100% dependent on what you were taught in school. In other words those who believe were taught this propaganda and to me this is a form of brain washing our younger society. JMHO

3 of these 4 have a majority of affirming facts to back up claims.

On a side note the belief argument came up cause you cant 100% PROVE someone believes in something.  Unless you are the person they could be lieing.

On a side side note. I am not an atheist. I'm agnostic I have no proof that god exists, I have no proof he doesn't.  Thus in the end I will find out when I die what happens.

Just because someone, or even a majority of people affirm facts, doesn't make it so. 

It does seem to be belief, facts, and truth are what is being debated here.  Well, besides the original topic of climate change itself.  In this case, some seem to be viewing proof and truth as subjective and others as absolute.  Again, from an observer, that seems to be the bridge or connection that is keeping both sides apart. 

To ME, when it comes to facts and truth, either it is or it isn't.  Not counting all of that abstract BS about whether or not we truly know we exist and all that jazz.  If someone uses words like affirm, conclusion, etc, to me those are beliefs.  And that is typically what is the root of most arguments because people tend to get emotional over beliefs, especially when there doesn't appear to be a solid way to prove either way.  That's why as an engineer, I can often prove that I am right based on the LAWS of physics.  And why I hate stuff like politics and religion.

Not really you cant technically prove someone believes in something.

Having a belief is not the criteria.  Following a religion is.  Established religions hold worship services.  Very easy to show if you attended any churches or services regularly.  If you don' regularly attend services along with the many others who do, hiding behind religious beliefs would be a flimsy defense.

Having a belief is not the criteria.  Following a religion is.  Established religions hold worship services.  Very easy to show if you attended any churches or services regularly.  If you don' regularly attend services along with the many others who do, hiding behind religious beliefs would be a flimsy defense.

There's a criteria as to what is considered following a religion, belief, whatever?  Not being a smartass or argumentative.  I really didn't think there was such a thing. 

Maybe I watch too many Law & Order or medical drama shows.  I think a couple of shows tackled the issue of immunization.  I think Law & Order SVU was one and I want to say another medical show.  Anyways, it was my understanding that abstaining or refusing on religious grounds were essentially up the person's word/statement.  There very well may be verbiage in the laws about what is proper process of criteria, but if so, maybe the problem is in practice.  Many cases of that all around.  There are laws, then there are procedures intended to follow or implement the laws, and there is what happens in reality.  Often times, those three are very different in reality. 

There's a criteria as to what is considered following a religion, belief, whatever?  Not being a smartass or argumentative.  I really didn't think there was such a thing. 

Maybe I watch too many Law & Order or medical drama shows.  I think a couple of shows tackled the issue of immunization.  I think Law & Order SVU was one and I want to say another medical show.  Anyways, it was my understanding that abstaining or refusing on religious grounds were essentially up the person's word/statement.  There very well may be verbiage in the laws about what is proper process of criteria, but if so, maybe the problem is in practice.  Many cases of that all around.  There are laws, then there are procedures intended to follow or implement the laws, and there is what happens in reality.  Often times, those three are very different in reality.

The "up to the person's statement" is basically true.  But if the medical staff wants to challenge the decision in the interest of the health of the child, they will go to court.  At that point, the parents will have to demonstrate their beliefs are part of their lives and not just a convenient exemption they are trying to use that one time.

Not trying to be argumentative but I believe that the belief in man having a huge affect on the climate is 100% dependent on what you were taught in school. In other words those who believe were taught this propaganda and to me this is a form of brain washing our younger society. JMHO

Everything you know is taught.  From either schools, internet, books, parents, etc.  This is a poor excuse.  You could say religious schools are brain washing our young to not believe in science.

Having a belief is not the criteria.  Following a religion is.  Established religions hold worship services.  Very easy to show if you attended any churches or services regularly.  If you don' regularly attend services along with the many others who do, hiding behind religious beliefs would be a flimsy defense.

I don't believe it said anywhere that it had to be an "established" religion.  You can also believe in a religion and not go to church.

Ron Paul read this post and decided to do a video for us today.