9mm load probs (Read 20814 times)

mrgaf

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 11:03:29 PM »
After reading everything here I've come to these conclusions
1. Clays is not a good option for powder
2. The primers appear to be ok
3. The fired primer problem is due to the Clays being too hot.
4. Removed his firing pin and extractor and everything looks great as does the pin hole in the breech face. His gun has <100 thru it.
5. He did trim some of his cases with a lee stud and trimmer they measured .736. Fired cases measure .745-748 after resizing. Told him not to trim since pistol cases tend to shrink some after firing.
6. COL on his reloads are too small, 1.100. Told him to disassemble his loads and make them longer. Gave him some reference material for the type bullet he's using (hornady HAP .355)
7. Use a case gauge

Did I mss anything?
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

Kalen

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2017, 12:39:19 AM »
For pistol rounds I do not.  I generally spot check the specs on a few cases, load, and shoot.  I have never trimmed a straight wall pistol case they tend not to grow much, and usually shrink.  they tend to get lost before they wear out, or the neck cracks in which case I dump them.  I am more worried about the bullets ojive and ensuring it is not jammed into the lands on pistol rounds.  Some glocks have a long throat and loads that are tailored for a glock barrel may not fit into other 9mms. I ran into this once when a friend let me try some of his glock fodder.  Closed the slide on my CZ75 and it wouldn't go into battery.  Bumped it open only to have the bullet pulled out of the case and powder dumped all inside my action.  I was  :wtf: is wrong with your reloads!!!?  lol!

Rifle bottle necked rounds are carefully measured sized and trimmed to spec, and spot checked for proper dimension.

I don't trim pistol either. Straight walled brass does indeed shrink http://www.massreloading.com/loading45ACP.html. However, being that the brass I get (mostly once fired) is from an unknown source I typically find 2-4 rounds that won't chamber/head space correctly out of 150. I check every round, a little tedious, but I do find some that can't be seen by the naked eye. Saves me the hassle from spent time at the range. This is usually due to the brass being stepped on at the range or by nicked around the head stamp.

oldfart

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2017, 05:02:12 AM »
Read this thread...
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=7656.0

Toss the trimmed brass, they are out of spec.
Change to 231 powder. It's more forgiving on pressure and meters more consistently. Approx 5 gr.
Check extractor tension on the 1911. Might be contributing to malfunctions.

What, Me Worry?

Inspector

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2017, 06:26:13 AM »
Wow really got me thinking... have read that some think the Magtech is soft, others say they're hard while others say they are in the middle, comparable to Winchester. Some like, some hate. They are made in Brazil. I've never had or heard of any problems till now. The powder he used is Clays, a shotgun powder but like I said Hogdon shows it as a load for 9mm and 115gr Hp bullets.
As for the brass I can't say but he said seating them on his Dillon 550 was pretty nice and all were slightly below flush. I looked at the brass and it looks quite nice. Checked his press and it's set up correctly.
He confirmed the primers were pistol.
As for firing pin probs I don't think it's the culprit. My pistol was getting the same "hole" as his SA 1911. Not many, about ten between us. Commercial ammo worked fine ( commercial ammo PMC 115gr, the left hand example in the attachment). All primer strikes were uniform for both guns.
Beginning to think the prob is the powder. I'm gonna see what he has and go from there. I know he has tightgroup, 231, bullseye and the new unique. Gonna load at start and go from there. What would you guys recommend?  :D
Bullseye and Unique were my go to powders back 30+ years ago when I reloaded 9mm. Either one should work fine. But I have to say I am a Titegroup fan as I use it for all the different pistol rounds I reload for. It works well in 9mm with my Glock and my Sig. My suggestion is to go with Titegroup first and work up a few loads.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Inspector

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2017, 06:40:28 AM »
For pistol rounds I do not.  I generally spot check the specs on a few cases, load, and shoot.  I have never trimmed a straight wall pistol case they tend not to grow much, and usually shrink.  they tend to get lost before they wear out, or the neck cracks in which case I dump them.  I am more worried about the bullets ojive and ensuring it is not jammed into the lands on pistol rounds.  Some glocks have a long throat and loads that are tailored for a glock barrel may not fit into other 9mms. I ran into this once when a friend let me try some of his glock fodder.  Closed the slide on my CZ75 and it wouldn't go into battery.  Bumped it open only to have the bullet pulled out of the case and powder dumped all inside my action.  I was  :wtf: is wrong with your reloads!!!?  lol!

Rifle bottle necked rounds are carefully measured sized and trimmed to spec, and spot checked for proper dimension.
I understand you are not reloading for a Glock? If not then checking every case and finished round is not mandatory. But if you ever start using brass fired at least once in a Glock and then reload them for a Glock you will need to check every case/cartridge as you will find you will get a few cases that need to be thrown away as they won't size correctly. I have dies designed to size for the Glock bulge but I find an occasional case that won't take the sizing properly and retains enough of the bulge that it won't check out in the gauge. I prefer to check every case before reloading and then check every 10 cartridges. Before I checked every cartridge and would find an occasional round that needed to be torn apart.

BTW, I found an interesting little tidbit. If I find a case/cartridge that won't check out in my gauge due to the Glock bulge, that case/cartridge will chamber and fire just fine in my Sig. Yes, the chamber in my Sig is looser than the chamber in my Glock. That same case/cartridge will not chamber in my Glock even though it came out of my Glock.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

mrgaf

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2017, 01:34:23 PM »
ok went to his house this morning. Resized about 1000k of brass, measure them and if they were smaller than .744 or trimmed they were separated. All keepers had the primer pockets checked, web checks and headstamp checked. All appeared to be fine (examined under a lighted magnifying glass).
then we disassembled about 100 rounds he made using the Clays. checked to see how the primers were seated and all or just below flush. Checked to make sure they were seated all the way first. If needed will decap with a decapper die but i don't think that will be necessary. Will reload about 20 each using 231, unique (new type), tight group and bullseye, all with the Hornady 115gr HAP and will seat to about 1.150 or as long as possible to fit his mag. All loads will b e starter loads since this round will be for testing purposes and functionality. All loads will be checked with a case gauge. Will put a light Lee factory crimp on all.

Also inspected his 9mm 1911. Field stripped and removed the firing pin and ejector and examined for any damage to the pin and ejector. both looked pristine. Checked the breech face for any cratering around the firing pin hole and none was found and the surrounding areas pristine. Inspected the bore with my bore scope. chamber looked pristine as did the bore. Put everything back together. Did the same to my SD9VE with results being the same.

Hopefully this is the rite course of action and the new reloads will be fine. :geekdanc: :thumbsup: :shake: :oops:
 
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

TooFewPews

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2017, 05:29:49 PM »
I use CFE Pistol for my 9mm and 45 loads. It's very forgiving and a double charge in 9mm will be readily apparent.

I also don't trim my cases.

Be careful when determining proper COL for the 9mm loads. Given that he's using HAP bullets, it will tend to have a shorter COL than other round nose loadings.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the load data for HAP should be close to XTP loads.

mrgaf

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2017, 09:47:58 PM »
I use CFE Pistol for my 9mm and 45 loads. It's very forgiving and a double charge in 9mm will be readily apparent.

I also don't trim my cases.

Be careful when determining proper COL for the 9mm loads. Given that he's using HAP bullets, it will tend to have a shorter COL than other round nose loadings.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the load data for HAP should be close to XTP loads.

Will do. He's gonna get some CFE as soon as he finds some. Think he's gonna go with something other than the HAP's...
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

Heavies

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2017, 12:54:02 PM »
I don't think this is the problem, however, I found it interesting and applicable to our discussion here about possible over pressure, and some thing to look out for.




Also to add, maybe the deep-seated bullet could have an impact on the overpressure signs observed in the original reload?

mrgaf

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2017, 01:35:59 PM »
I don't think this is the problem, however, I found it interesting and applicable to our discussion here about possible over pressure, and some thing to look out for.




Also to add, maybe the deep-seated bullet could have an impact on the overpressure signs observed in the original reload?

WOW Thanks... very interesting! I think u r on to something there with the bullet seating depth. We're gonna abandon the HAP bullets and go with RN 115 or 124gr fodder. Will have to reasearch the COL for those types of fodder. Not sure if I mentioned this before but I'm almost certain his brass was used in some sort of machine gun or a block. Close examination of a dummy round we made shows, even after resizing with lee dies that there is a slight bulge just above the web in the sidewall of the case. Measurements with a caliper support this observation. After the resize, flare, bullet seating we ran them thru a lee factory crimp die with a light to medium crimp. After running them thru the crimp die the "bulge" was gone and the dummy slipped nicely into the case gauge whereas it did not prior to the crimp die. After some research I did find that the lee crimp will resize all the way down, removing any bulge.
I do have another question. From what I've read, glocks do not support the bottom of the cartridge all the way around. Semis the bottom of the chamber does not, therefore causing a "glock  bulge". Is this true?
Appreciate all the help. This has been a great learning experience!  :thumbsup:


To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

TooFewPews

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2017, 07:32:59 PM »
I doubt that the HAP is the problem.

Also I don't think that it matters if it was used in a machine gun (at least for pistol purposes anyway.

I know that my VP9 does some weird stuff to my 9mm brass, but that's a result of H&Ks stepped chamber.

mrgaf

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2017, 09:41:14 PM »
I doubt that the HAP is the problem.

Also I don't think that it matters if it was used in a machine gun (at least for pistol purposes anyway.

I know that my VP9 does some weird stuff to my 9mm brass, but that's a result of H&Ks stepped chamber.

Hmmmm I know the dummy would not chamber all the way in his SA 1911 nor my SA 1911 EMP 4 Champion until we ran it thru the crimp die. That being said my SW SD9VE had no problems with it. We could actually see the bulge all around the bottom. Agree I don't think the HAP was a problem but he just decided to go with another bullet and gave me all his HAPs.will try to get a before and after picture posted....
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

TooFewPews

9mm load probs
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2017, 10:02:07 PM »
Hmmmm I know the dummy would not chamber all the way in his SA 1911 nor my SA 1911 EMP 4 Champion until we ran it thru the crimp die. That being said my SW SD9VE had no problems with it. We could actually see the bulge all around the bottom. Agree I don't think the HAP was a problem but he just decided to go with another bullet and gave me all his HAPs.will try to get a before and after picture posted....

FYI, the 9th edition Hornady Book lists the COL for the 115 gr XTP at 1.075"

I would also caution against using Titegroup or a lot of the faster powders if your friend is relatively new to reloading for pistol. The faster powders aren't very forgiving and they usually have a small window to vary the charge. If he overcharges or double charges, then he can run into serious problems. For the slower powders, it's much easier to spot an overcharge.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 10:07:38 PM by TooFewPews »

mrgaf

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2017, 10:30:49 AM »
FYI, the 9th edition Hornady Book lists the COL for the 115 gr XTP at 1.075"

I would also caution against using Titegroup or a lot of the faster powders if your friend is relatively new to reloading for pistol. The faster powders aren't very forgiving and they usually have a small window to vary the charge. If he overcharges or double charges, then he can run into serious problems. For the slower powders, it's much easier to spot an overcharge.
Thanks for the info. I'm gonna steer him away from faster powders. He's going to go with either CFE Pistol or 231.  :thumbsup:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

oldfart

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2017, 11:38:19 AM »
What is your friend trying to accomplish anyway?

When you set out on a job you normally set some kind of goal.
What, Me Worry?

mrgaf

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2017, 04:46:46 PM »
What is your friend trying to accomplish anyway?

When you set out on a job you normally set some kind of goal.

Poke holes in paper and get a load that's as accurate as possible without blowing anything up.... dats all...
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

oldfart

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2017, 07:15:02 PM »
Poke holes in paper and get a load that's as accurate as possible without blowing anything up.... dats all...
...
Pure accuracy is the goal?
Start by sorting the brass by headstamp.
It makes a huge difference.
Read about the brass anomaly here...
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=7656.msg161406#msg161406

If the 1911 has a match bbl, it should be able to print less than 2 inches all day.
If it has a standard grade bbl, less than 3 inches.
What, Me Worry?

drck1000

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2017, 09:16:54 AM »
...
Pure accuracy is the goal?
Start by sorting the brass by headstamp.
It makes a huge difference.
Read about the brass anomaly here...
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=7656.msg161406#msg161406

If the 1911 has a match bbl, it should be able to print less than 2 inches all day.
If it has a standard grade bbl, less than 3 inches.
The accuracy of guns are dependent on the time of day?   :P  Maybe that's why I seem to shoot better in the afternoon with certain guns. . .  ;D

Just kidding.  I always sort of got a laugh at the "all day" saying. 

oldfart

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2017, 09:53:24 AM »
The accuracy of guns are dependent on the time of day?   :P  Maybe that's why I seem to shoot better in the afternoon with certain guns. . .  ;D

Just kidding.  I always sort of got a laugh at the "all day" saying.
....
Haha good one.

On the other hand, I think my point of impact changes depending on the angle of the sun in relation to my target.
I noticed that many years ago when I might sight in on the 2700 range then shoot a match on the combat side.
What, Me Worry?

mrgaf

Re: 9mm load probs
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2017, 04:06:19 PM »
...
Pure accuracy is the goal?
Start by sorting the brass by headstamp.
It makes a huge difference.
Read about the brass anomaly here...
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=7656.msg161406#msg161406

If the 1911 has a match bbl, it should be able to print less than 2 inches all day.
If it has a standard grade bbl, less than 3 inches.

His 1911 mm has a target, 4" heavy barrel. He'll be happy to get 3" for now until he gets comfortable with loading 9mm. All the head stamps are the same. He ordered some 124 & 115 FMJ from RMR. Gave him some WSF and for the 124's will start at 4.7gr then work up from there to 5.3(max) COL 1.169, 115gr will start at 4.9gr to 5.7(max) COL 1.169, all at .5gr increments. Bullet diameter is .355, small Magtech pistol primers light Lee crimp die crimp.

Hopefully we'll find a load that runns good, reasonable accurate without any pressure signs or primer problems.  :geekdanc:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.