Because...

1/9 vs 1/7

Chrome Moly (or who knows what) vs 2x Chrome Lined (e.g., Noveske) or precision SS

Milspec trigger vs National Match trigger

Non-FF barrel vs Freefloating barrel

Unstaked vs properly staked gas key

Non-MPI vs Magnetically Particle Inspected bolts

China-made vs US-made furniture

...it all depends on the shooter's intent, shooter's ability, and shooter's budget. Nothing wrong with a cheapo just for plinking. Someone intending to fire 20k rounds a year or making those 600 yard shots might want something with more attention given during manufacturing.

I still disagree.  I can build a all USA gun for under $600 and hit dime size groups. Customer proved it a few weeks ago. dime size groups 100 yards.

Delton Upper 1/7 Chrome Lined BBL 16"
Spikes Tactical Lower
Bushmaster LPK
Ammo: Federal XM193
4x Scope

Was better than my H-Bar Bushmaster with 2 Stage Trigger, Chrome Bolt, Custom Compensator, Free Float, 20" Chrome BBL.
6-24x Scope.
So I just sold the Bushmaster for $2000

I still disagree.  I can build a all USA gun for under $600 and hit dime size groups. Customer proved it a few weeks ago. dime size groups 100 yards.

Delton Upper 1/7 Chrome Lined BBL 16"
Spikes Tactical Lower
Bushmaster LPK
Ammo: Federal XM193
4x Scope

Was better than my H-Bar Bushmaster with 2 Stage Trigger, Chrome Bolt, Custom Compensator, Free Float, 20" Chrome BBL.
6-24x Scope.
So I just sold the Bushmaster for $2000

im new to this forum so i will try to stay slightly under the radar... but dime size groups at 100yards with a standard AR? i would really like to see that

infact, if you could make a video to prove it... i would believe it or next time you come to big island or i go to yours lets hook up and see that

cause most bolt guns have a hard time shooting 1/4 MOA let alone a stock AR-15.


i personally dont think a bushmaster is worth 2k. so its good that you sold it. but if you were comparing your $600 build to a noveske or LWRC or a larue rifle that cost 2000+.... sorry, no matter what you say, you are just gonna sound crazy to anyone if you think your $600 build will shoot as good.


and furthermore... (i know this isnt staying under the radar like i said i would but i cant help it lol)

you cant take any rifle at 100 yards and expect to see its flaws... you shoot at 100 and its a good referance... but really, someone that doesnt know any better sees a 1"-2" group and doest realize that at 600+ that turns into a 7-12" group. (i know thats not perfect math... what im getting at is the rifle is true... its just the operator error for the most part) 300 everything starts to show. but 600-1k is where you really will see the quality of your rifle.

like i said before... if you want shoot a man size target (that means effective/consistant 10" group) at 500+ a $600 rifle will do the trick... but you have to put more money out when you wanna tighten up your groups... thats just fact. anyone that argues that... well....     


and 1/7 1/9 etc twist rates... only affect velocity.... the quality of the make of the barrel determines the accuracy....

Alrighty then. You know the accuracy is 75% shooter and 25% gun right. The 25% is trigger and action. A expensive gun is not going to make you a good shooter. I've seen 1000 yard shots with our old POS issue Vietnam era m-16 rifles. Physics tells you that the faster a bullet spins the flight is predictable and stable. So twist rate does matter. On the down side the bullet will have more drift with a faster spin but that doesn't come into effect until it starts to lose velocity and friction/ gravity becomes a big factor. Humidity, wind direction, and altitude also affects bullet flight. In the end it has nothing to do with the rifle. It comes down to the shooters ability to predict bullet flight in accordance with environmental factors at distance shots. If you think I'm wrong. Research it.

Alrighty then. You know the accuracy is 75% shooter and 25% gun right. The 25% is trigger and action. A expensive gun is not going to make you a good shooter. I've seen 1000 yard shots with our old POS issue Vietnam era m-16 rifles. Physics tells you that the faster a bullet spins the flight is predictable and stable. So twist rate does matter. On the down side the bullet will have more drift with a faster spin but that doesn't come into effect until it starts to lose velocity and friction/ gravity becomes a big factor. Humidity, wind direction, and altitude also affects bullet flight. In the end it has nothing to do with t/he rifle. It comes down to the shooters ability to predict bullet flight in accordance with environmental factors at distance shots. If you think I'm wrong. Research it.

Come on, man. Go find me a  winning competitive shooter at any level who's running a bone-stock, standard issue gun. Skill is a huge factor, and great shooters can do impressive things with sub-standard guns, but claiming the gun has nothing to do with the equation is asinine. I think you should probably do some research.

 

Alrighty then. You know the accuracy is 75% shooter and 25% gun right. The 25% is trigger and action. A expensive gun is not going to make you a good shooter. I've seen 1000 yard shots with our old POS issue Vietnam era m-16 rifles. Physics tells you that the faster a bullet spins the flight is predictable and stable. So twist rate does matter. On the down side the bullet will have more drift with a faster spin but that doesn't come into effect until it starts to lose velocity and friction/ gravity becomes a big factor. Humidity, wind direction, and altitude also affects bullet flight. In the end it has nothing to do with the rifle. It comes down to the shooters ability to predict bullet flight in accordance with environmental factors at distance shots. If you think I'm wrong. Research it.

im not saying its not possible to shoot a crappy rifle good and your completely correct saying that accuracy is 75% shooter etc.... and yes, you can hit at 1000 yards with a 2-5 MOA rifle at a man size target.

but its just fact that it will be a hell of a lot easyer with a rifle that shoots sub MOA. and again, if your know anyone who has a standard issue AR shooting sub MOA i would love to see it because thats a one in a million rifle. definatly keep that one.

as far as the twist rate goes... yes ive researched it. i just find that people get all crazy over it more then its importance. it does everything your saying...
but you take a high quality hand lapped barrel from the same maker, same barrel length... one being 1/7 twist the other being 1/8 twist and so forth... they will be very close to same accuracy if not identical in the fact that whats more likely changing is the barrel its self. you see more of the effects of the twist rate in the velocity or impact on target.

my point being if you want to improve accuracy... a high quality hand lapped barrel is going to do the trick more then the twist rate.... this guy is arguing that a standard barrel is as good a custom one!!!! lets tackle one issue before we move onto twist rates lol

and when i say custom barrel i dont mean a DPMS bull barrel or any production bull barrel....
im talking WOA, bartlein, lilka, spartan, gap etc... and if your talking production then noveske LWRC etc is good too

 

 

lol    too!

Come on, man. Go find me a  winning competitive shooter at any level who's running a bone-stock, standard issue gun. Skill is a huge factor, and great shooters can do impressive things with sub-standard guns, but claiming the gun has nothing to do with the equation is asinine. I think you should probably do some research.

I was taught that training, and have seen it first hand. You do the research to prove it wrong. 

 

Why is a 2k ar better than a $600 one?  I haven't been able to prove that the group sizes are proportionate to the price with my rifles so far.  I would like to see a real comparison though.  600 yards would be a very good measure.  100 yards at Kokohead is just too short I think.  Thought my rifle was good but took it to puuloa and while not upset,  was not excited with its performance.  No answer but  am definitely interested in any physical evidence anyone can  provide.  Tighter and more consistent tolerances should yield tighter groups but are 3x smaller groups available?  Don't think a self assembled rifle should be called a $600 gun.  An off the shelf for $600 gun should be called a $600 gun.  Manufacturers don't only make you pay for parts. 

Why is a 2k ar better than a $600 one?  I haven't been able to prove that the group sizes are proportionate to the price with my rifles so far.  I would like to see a real comparison though.  600 yards would be a very good measure.  100 yards at Kokohead is just too short I think.  Thought my rifle was good but took it to puuloa and while not upset,  was not excited with its performance.  No answer but  am definitely interested in any physical evidence anyone can  provide.  Tighter and more consistent tolerances should yield tighter groups but are 3x smaller groups available?  Don't think a self assembled rifle should be called a $600 gun.  An off the shelf for $600 gun should be called a $600 gun.  Manufacturers don't only make you pay for parts.

well if you can figure out the hard math and how the groups grow... if you have a 1/4 MOA group at 100 yards (a TRUE 1/4 MOA) i believe it will spred out to about 5,6in at 1000 yards...

and if you have a 2-3 MOA group at 100 yards it turns into a 10-12+ group at 1000... so basically...

yes a good shooter can hit a man at 1000 yards with a stock standard AR...

but a good shooter should be able to make a head shot at 1000 yards with a "custom AR"...

I was taught that training, and have seen it first hand. You do the research to prove it wrong. 

Damn, I just got trolled, didn't I? Well played, sir, you had me going there!

why is no one responding to my posts? do i have to have a certain number of post before anyone reads them in this forum? lol

 

Shit might as well I fall inline.

why is no one responding to my posts? do i have to have a certain number of post before anyone reads them in this forum? lol

I haven't responded because I agree with everything you're saying.   

I haven't responded because I agree with everything you're saying.   

lol awesome i figured you did

i just wasnt sure cause even the ones that dont agree arnt sayn anything

lol awesome i figured you did

i just wasnt sure cause even the ones that dont agree arnt sayn anything

I think that's because we were being trolled.