yes the "occasional" exception to the rule is always there. as i said, if you your ar is a "shooter..."    awesome! keep it!

i had a reminton 5R stock, that outshot my friends rem700 that he has droped over $3000 into.

that was not the point of my posts or the reason to the answer of "why is a $2000 AR better than a $600 one"

it has been made clear your point that a "cheaper gun" CAN be as good as a more expensive one...

but if you have 10 standard ARs... yes 1 might have tuned out to be that magic rifle... that shoots as good as a larue OBR.... but what about the 9 others?


i know 3 other friends that bought a rem5R same time i did.
mine shot a TRUE 1/4 MOA.
theirs all shot about 1/2-3/4 MOA

guys spend 600-1200 on a rifle that will guarantee 1MOA...
and some guys spend 3000-6000 on a rifle that will guarantee 1/4 MOA

my 5R proved what your saying.... yes. a cheaper rifle can shoot as good or sometimes even better then a more expensive rifle...

but its not the norm.

so when your asking a "general" question of why is a $2000 AR better then a $600 AR"...
the GENERAL answer is simply it is better build with more quality parts that make it more accurate...

(yes there are expeptions!)

no? 

............and yet you'd never hear of a Chevy guy dropping a Ford motor into their car.................. 

lol so true! 

............and yet you'd never hear of a Chevy guy dropping a Ford motor into their car.................. 

hahaha I never seen that.....in all my years of engine swaps.

I still have my Toyota Motor in a Mercedes....that I built in 1985 

To me a lower is a lower.  Maybe the game changer is the buffer.  But depends on the setup.
The Heart is in the barrel and the Bolt.  ER Shaw makes all the barrels for nearly everyone. 
Some Rifle Manufacturers take the barrels and do thier mods to it
(cyro, Nitride & flute or what have you) maybe that makes the barrel better who knows?
Don't get me wrong I have shot $2-3000 AR's and to me its a AR. Feels like an AR
Kicks no different than another AR.  And it still has to be maintained like an AR.
Because its an AR!

^^^I built a varmint gun.  Didn't start off as an expensive build.  I ended up with a Shilen barrel, DD kit, Geiselle DMR trigger, etc. 

Well I take that sucker out to shoot it and had a jam fest.  Come to find out my reloads weren't what they should have been.  A bit too far off on the resizing.

Well I throw that very same ammo into my cheapy AR and it feeds and goes boom.  So for me, my sub moa varmint rifle did not even fire, but that very same exact ammo was fine with my other cheap AR.  So yeah, I don't believe expensive firearms always mean better accuracy/precision.

^^^I built a varmint gun.  Didn't start off as an expensive build.  I ended up with a Shilen barrel, DD kit, Geiselle DMR trigger, etc. 

Well I take that sucker out to shoot it and had a jam fest.  Come to find out my reloads weren't what they should have been.  A bit too far off on the resizing.

Well I throw that very same ammo into my cheapy AR and it feeds and goes boom.  So for me, my sub moa varmint rifle did not even fire, but that very same exact ammo was fine with my other cheap AR.  So yeah, I don't believe expensive firearms always mean better accuracy/precision.

Accuracy and reliability are two totally different things.  Feeding and going boom does not equal accuracy.  I would be interested to know how the varminter shot when it did feed; was the accuracy improved over the cheaper rifle?

^^^I built a varmint gun.  Didn't start off as an expensive build.  I ended up with a Shilen barrel, DD kit, Geiselle DMR trigger, etc. 

Well I take that sucker out to shoot it and had a jam fest.  Come to find out my reloads weren't what they should have been.  A bit too far off on the resizing.

Well I throw that very same ammo into my cheapy AR and it feeds and goes boom.  So for me, my sub moa varmint rifle did not even fire, but that very same exact ammo was fine with my other cheap AR.  So yeah, I don't believe expensive firearms always mean better accuracy/precision.

sounds like its a headspacing issue?

but that to me is the difference between a "home" build and a build by the high end companys. yes the parts might be the same... but for whatever reason yours didnt go together properly...

the guys at noveske or larue put it together... it messes up... they fix it untill it IS reliable...

see you just gave up and didnt try to fix it...




its the same concept as a 1911...

if it goes together with NOT high tollerances, (like a rock river ARMs. oh god i hope this doesnt start a 1911 battle lol) it is generally more reliable. little play in the slide to frame fit ect...
but a 1911 put together by wilsoncombat or nighthawk... it has high tollerances but also is FINE FITTED so that it is reliable as well... AND shoots 1in groups at 25yards (vs 5"groups)


same with ARs... yea you can throw a bunch of high end parts together and it may end up shooting good. (thats what i did and i didnt have to worry about it) but thats the difference when you have someone that has been putting guns together for a long time... if something doesnt work right... they know what it is to fix it.

so dont give up on your varmit rifle!!! figure it out. make it reliable. so you have both. reliability AND accuracy.

but dont git rid of your "lower end" AR. because next time you do crappy loads again, youll still have the shitty one to shoot the shitty ammo!
great for a carbine class and drills!

or maybe you want the malfunctions... so that way you can work on rifle manipulations

hey you can always give your crappy loads to me ill use em. ill keep them in a box to throw occationally in with my good ammo when im doing drills so i will be forced to do malfunction drills!

Check out 6mmAR.com and search for "Robert Whitley and what makes an accurate AR".

Come down and shoot at Puuloa 200, 300, and 600 yards.  Bring your expensive AR or budget AR.  You can spend as little or as much as you want on your AR, in the end all that matters is consisency and reliability.

F-class with optics, ten ring is 1 MOA and the X ring is 1/2 MOA.  I seen some posts that was saying that a 1/4 gun will shoot 1/4 at 500 or 600 even 1000.  Not true at all.  A lot of other factors come into play at longer distance.  With an AR you need the right ammunition to make it to 600.  55 grain ball will not do.  An AR with a standard length barrel and standard quick twists has no chance of 1K unless you are running WAY hot.(danger zone hot!).  A .308 will barely make it to 1000 yards BTW.  Wind will become a huge factor at these distances as well.

So instead of arguing, shooting groups at point blank range(100yards is point blank for a rifle with a optic IMHO), and speculating, folks should come out and experience a little 'MID Range' shooting at Puuloa.  It will certainly bring some things into perspective.
 

...expensive or cheap...in the end all that matters is consisency and reliability.

Check out 6mmAR.com and search for "Robert Whitley and what makes an accurate AR".

Come down and shoot at Puuloa 200, 300, and 600 yards.  Bring your expensive AR or budget AR.  You can spend as little or as much as you want on your AR, in the end all that matters is consisency and reliability.

F-class with optics, ten ring is 1 MOA and the X ring is 1/2 MOA.  I seen some posts that was saying that a 1/4 gun will shoot 1/4 at 500 or 600 even 1000.  Not true at all.  A lot of other factors come into play at longer distance.  With an AR you need the right ammunition to make it to 600.  55 grain ball will not do.  An AR with a standard length barrel and standard quick twists has no chance of 1K unless you are running WAY hot.(danger zone hot!).  A .308 will barely make it to 1000 yards BTW.  Wind will become a huge factor at these distances as well.

So instead of arguing, shooting groups at point blank range(100yards is point blank for a rifle with a optic IMHO), and speculating, folks should come out and experience a little 'MID Range' shooting at Puuloa.  It will certainly bring some things into perspective.
 

...expensive or cheap...in the end all that matters is consisency and reliability.

agree! but i think we need clarification on the MOA thing. i was the one that said 1/4 MOA at 1000 yards.

i thought MOA was just a form of measurement? the equation that gives you a MOA grows as you increase the distance. but the sizing of MOA is still the same.

example:
1/4 MOA at 100 yards is exactly that.    1 quarter inch group at 100 yards...

but

1/4 MOA at say 600 yards actually on paper shows a grouping size of 2 or 3"... but its still called a 1/4 MOA group...

someone clarify this for me! cause that changes my whole concept of a minute of angle measurement!!!!

but yea 1/4 MOA group at 100 is 1/4... 300 is 2".... 600 is 3"... 800 is 5" 1000 yards the group ends up mesuring close to 6 or 7"... but it is still a 1/4MOA group cause the "minute of angle equation" grows as your distance grows...

and those arnt exact numbers... thats just off my head giving the general idea of how the "measurement of MOA" is the same.... but the grouping size gets larger as you get further.

which is why i understand when someone sees only 1 inch group and a 3 inch group at 100 yards... they naturally think a $2000 rifle is not worth the difference in group size.

but not understanding that yes we are only talking 1 or 2 inch difference at 100 yards... but as you get further out and more distance... the MOA measurement changes and your 2-3MOA rifle is only capable of consistently hitting a 2foot group at 1000 yards....

like i said from the beginning if all you need to do is hit a man size target at 1000 yards... a standard AR is capable of doing that.

but if you want to consistently (yes ive said before there are occasional magic rifles out there) smaller groups then that... you need to upgrade your firearm.


some people dont wanna put a rifle together...

like for example home boy that talked about his varmit rifle being unreliable. he needs to put more time in it to make it reliable. BUT some people dont wanna spend there time in "building" the rifle... so what do they do...

they buy a $2000 AR


remember people... i dont own a $2000 AR... i just understand the benefits of it

i had a reminton 5R stock, that outshot my friends rem700 that he has droped over $3000 into.
i know 3 other friends that bought a rem5R same time i did.
mine shot a TRUE 1/4 MOA.
theirs all shot about 1/2-3/4 MOA

guys spend 600-1200 on a rifle that will guarantee 1MOA...
and some guys spend 3000-6000 on a rifle that will guarantee 1/4 MOA

my 5R proved what your saying.... yes. a cheaper rifle can shoot as good or sometimes even better then a more expensive rifle...

I LOVE MY 5R!!!! I found the right loading for it and it shoots 5 shot one hole groups at 50yds I have not tried it at 100yds yet. It shoots Federal NATO Ball 5 shots into a less than 1/2" hole at 50yds. And I paid $775 for it. I know you can't compare a bolt gun to a semi auto but it just goes to show you there are other options than an AR at an extremely reasonable price. OKAY, back to the subject. 

remember people... i dont own a $2000 AR... i just understand the benefits of it

are you sure? your scope is like 1500... lol

are you sure? your scope is like 1500... lol

lol that wasnt my personal optic i was just testing it for vortex

lol that wasnt my personal optic i was just testing it for vortex

haha.. no wonder you dropped it on rocks.. good shit

I would rather have a 600 Ak then a 600 AR.   

agree! but i think we need clarification on the MOA thing. i was the one that said 1/4 MOA at 1000 yards.

i thought MOA was just a form of measurement? the equation that gives you a MOA grows as you increase the distance. but the sizing of MOA is still the same.

example:
1/4 MOA at 100 yards is exactly that.    1 quarter inch group at 100 yards...

but

1/4 MOA at say 600 yards actually on paper shows a grouping size of 2 or 3"... but its still called a 1/4 MOA group...

someone clarify this for me! cause that changes my whole concept of a minute of angle measurement!!!!

but yea 1/4 MOA group at 100 is 1/4... 300 is 2".... 600 is 3"... 800 is 5" 1000 yards the group ends up mesuring close to 6 or 7"... but it is still a 1/4MOA group cause the "minute of angle equation" grows as your distance grows...

I believe you mean that the equation stays the same. 1 MOA at 100 yards is aprroximately 1", 1 MOA at 300 yards is approximately 3", 1 MOA at 1000 yards is approximately 10". Therefore, a 1/4 MOA group at 1000 yards is around 2.5".

Group size of 2.5" @ 1000 yards is world class. Heavy benchrest shooters have a hard time doing that.

and those arnt exact numbers... thats just off my head giving the general idea of how the "measurement of MOA" is the same.... but the grouping size gets larger as you get further.

which is why i understand when someone sees only 1 inch group and a 3 inch group at 100 yards... they naturally think a $2000 rifle is not worth the difference in group size.

but not understanding that yes we are only talking 1 or 2 inch difference at 100 yards... but as you get further out and more distance... the MOA measurement changes and your 2-3MOA rifle is only capable of consistently hitting a 2foot group at 1000 yards....

like i said from the beginning if all you need to do is hit a man size target at 1000 yards... a standard AR is capable of doing that.

but if you want to consistently (yes ive said before there are occasional magic rifles out there) smaller groups then that... you need to upgrade your firearm.


some people dont wanna put a rifle together...

like for example home boy that talked about his varmit rifle being unreliable. he needs to put more time in it to make it reliable. BUT some people dont wanna spend there time in "building" the rifle... so what do they do...

they buy a $2000 AR


remember people... i dont own a $2000 AR... i just understand the benefits of it

Now if you have a 2 MOA rifle firing in a vice, with no air, or wind, or any other type of an effect on bullet travel, on a day when the sun moon and stars align in perfect harmony you might be able to pull off a 24" group at 1k.

A normal AR 15 cannot push a bullet fast enough to be remotely accurate at 1000 yards. I doubt the bullet will even hit the target.
A bolt gun shooting 90 grainers at max pressure can do it but in a normal AR 15, I highly doubt it would be anywhere near consistent.  And probably highly dangerous.


World class shooters keep 20 rounds within that 20" circle, in wind, rain, sun, heat, with iron sights and a sling!  This is not done with any 2 MOA rifle. The rifle has to be top notch, certified sub 1/4 MOA rifle, OCD handloads, and a ton of skill and concentration.  They do not use AR 15s.

I haven't been able to streach out to 1k yet, i hope to try some day, I had a rifle built specifically for it, but to get a rifle round accurately out there time after time is no small feat.
That is why I say for people to try out our club matches. Even with very light wind, I promise you, your AR experience will be humbling.   

I believe you mean that the equation stays the same. 1 MOA at 100 yards is aprroximately 1", 1 MOA at 300 yards is approximately 3", 1 MOA at 1000 yards is approximately 10". Therefore, a 1/4 MOA group at 1000 yards is around 2.5".

Group size of 2.5" @ 1000 yards is world class. Heavy benchrest shooters have a hard time doing that.

?

Yes! That's what I mean
I was a little confused when he said "some people are saying they got 1/4 moan groups" and thought he was talking about me saying I got that with my bolt gun. Which I did once but only at 100yards so wind wasn't much a factor.

Ar on the other hand... im hoping to get under 1moa... well see when my next optic comes in

Believe me I KNOW its humbling. I've shot with NCPPRC in Sacramento quite a bit and took my 5Rmom out to 1K. My best shots at 1K WITH a bolt gun was a 18" group. Which I know isn't amazing but I was happy with it. Kept the target

And what I mean by 18"group is 4 out of 6 shots where actually on my man target the others... well let's not worry about them 

Think 1/4 moa is 1.5" at 600. 

2-3" groups are still much better than I get.    
My rifle wasn't bought whole, it was home built and while all the components didn't come out to 2k, it did come out to a bunch more than 1k.  The glass was about same as the rifle.  It feeds on ssa 77 gr. Otm's. 

Right now "i'm" getting 3/4 - 1/2 moa groups when I'm doing good.  When im not doing so good ... well lets just say ive gotten a miss before.  That target frame is huge but its possible.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone could do better with that rifle but rifle matches aren't the measure of the rifle are they?  Its my rifle so I measure it by what I can shoot with it.  Btw, that's with optics.  I'm kinda scared how horrible I'd do with irons. 

Can people start listing their components for their 1/4 moa rifles.  Maybe pictures.  Especially the $600-$1000 ones.  I would really like to be competitive in f class with an ar since everyone else so far is using bolt guns.  Ar guys need more representation!