Maunakea TMT Protests (Read 296828 times)

drck1000

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #440 on: August 05, 2019, 11:38:13 PM »
Still seeing lots of infighting and hundreds of comments about why someone isn’t “Hawaiian enough” because they haven’t made the trip to visit and pay respects to those on Mauna Kea, or aren’t posting enough on social media or speaking out enough...

Personally, the amount of people who have supported those against the TMT has been quite impressive.  I think back to why folks didn’t come out in force against some of the State Highways projects I worked in the past. I think main thing is social media and the trendiness of being part of the “awoke” movement, many times even if they didn’t quite have all of the facts behind it. But I also hear from some good friends that it’s the same infighting that has gone on in the past. The ridicule of those just joining the cause/effort being ridiculed or made feeling less by those who have walked the walk for decades.

Like in my project to build a bypass bridge in Lahaina. The vast majority of the community actually was for the bypass. Why? Because their livelihood depended on success of the resorts in West Maui. But lots showed up to community meetings and actually voiced opposition basically because or family pressure to essentially rally against any and all development.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #441 on: August 05, 2019, 11:51:02 PM »
What if Native Hawaiians rallied behind the issues that really plague Native Hawaiians disproportionately? Health problems, crime rates, domestic violence, poverty, and other such issues? Granted those are not physical things to unite around like the TMT but are going to do so much more for Native Hawaiians than fighting a telescope on a mountain. But good thing they get into their lifted trucks getting 10 mpg with the upside-down Hawaiian flag and go on cruises because that really shows they care for the Aina.

Kuleana,
I do know some native hawaiians who have been vocal in their support of the TMT as well. But my main point was more the treatment I have seen from people against the TMT. Granted keyboard warriors on facebook and instagram are probably going to be more tough in their comments than if they were face to face but the sheer number of racist and posts suggesting violence is not tolerant to say the least. So many comments about haole this and that and small their face etc. Its hard to say how many supporters there are who don't speak up. The protestors act like they speak for all Native Hawaiians and only the outsiders want the TMT.

How many native Hawaiians today do you think actually believe in the ancient Hawaiian gods and goddesses? How many actually believe the mountain is truly sacred and worship in the way of their ancestors?

If you're not Hawaiian, you can't speak about what issues "plague" Hawaiians.

Men can't have an opinion on abortion, because it's a "women's health issue".  [never mind it was MEN who decided in favor of Roe v. Wade]

Please refer to the "Rules for Liberals" for more detail.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #442 on: August 06, 2019, 07:06:32 AM »
What if Native Hawaiians rallied behind the issues that really plague Native Hawaiians disproportionately? Health problems, crime rates, domestic violence, poverty, and other such issues?
Dude, that is sooooooo raciss! You are going to hell for sure...er... I mean wherever it is the superstitious hawaiians believe bad people go when they die (maybe with some kapu aloha assistance).

Kuleana

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #443 on: August 06, 2019, 08:27:15 AM »
How many native Hawaiians today do you think actually believe in the ancient Hawaiian gods and goddesses? How many actually believe the mountain is truly sacred and worship in the way of their ancestors?

If we are looking at this issue from a historical and legal perspective, there should be none.  Under the rule of Kamehameha II, the Kapu system was officially abolished, along with the abandoning the worship of all pre-European contact religious deities, and the adoption of Christianity as the unofficial State religion.  Although the Kingdom of Hawaii allowed the freedom of religion, most Hawaiians like myself, have since adopted the Christian faith.  In the last 20 years or so, however, there has been more Hawaiians who have seem to convert back to worshiping our ancient deities of the past.

As to the question as to how many Hawaiians actually think the mauna is sacred, I am sure those who have begun practicing our ancient religions, the mauna is very sacred to them.  However, I would argue the majority of us view the mountain with the same respect as most people would see the Notre-Dame Cathedral.

ren

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #444 on: August 06, 2019, 09:20:46 AM »
Since the anti-TMT protestors have lumped all issues onto this project; it's fair to look at the broader issue of diversifying our economy and increasing access to capital. I think we are digging our own grave. Our economy is so dependent on Fed money and tourism all these people who receive govt. subsidies should see the correlation.
Most other States would welcome a project like this. Free money for the State. What we have shown the world that access to one of our greatest capital - land - is off limits to foreign investors. That brings the next question what other capital resources we have in this State? Agriculture = gone. Priced out by other places in the world. This one unique location in the world is off limits - no compromise. Tourism? Sure. Our State continues to rape that goose. There's only so much she can take till tourists find cheaper alternatives to Hawaii. Federal spending? Hmmm. Junior Senators with nothing but hate for our President and an out of control public works project bleeding money.
Deeds Not Words

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #445 on: August 06, 2019, 10:35:43 AM »
Since the anti-TMT protestors have lumped all issues onto this project; it's fair to look at the broader issue of diversifying our economy and increasing access to capital. I think we are digging our own grave. Our economy is so dependent on Fed money and tourism all these people who receive govt. subsidies should see the correlation.
Most other States would welcome a project like this. Free money for the State. What we have shown the world that access to one of our greatest capital - land - is off limits to foreign investors. That brings the next question what other capital resources we have in this State? Agriculture = gone. Priced out by other places in the world. This one unique location in the world is off limits - no compromise. Tourism? Sure. Our State continues to rape that goose. There's only so much she can take till tourists find cheaper alternatives to Hawaii. Federal spending? Hmmm. Junior Senators with nothing but hate for our President and an out of control public works project bleeding money.
I'm sure I've said this before.  I really don't care if the TMT gets built.
I worked on the summit of Mauna Kea for almost ten years.
I have nothing but disgust for Hawaiian culturalism practitioners.
I've watched them. I've had breakfast with them.
They are two faced forked tongued liars.  It is all about the money.
TMT will probably move to Spain and might get built.
Hawaiians still here will still be on a wait list controlled by Hawaiians.
You can stare at the "pimples" on the summit and blame that for all
your ills, but the fact is you are stupid and failures.
I'm quite sure Kamehameha would have obliterated you.

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #446 on: August 06, 2019, 10:58:10 AM »
If we are looking at this issue from a historical and legal perspective, there should be none.  Under the rule of Kamehameha II, the Kapu system was officially abolished, along with the abandoning the worship of all pre-European contact religious deities, and the adoption of Christianity as the unofficial State religion.  Although the Kingdom of Hawaii allowed the freedom of religion, most Hawaiians like myself, have since adopted the Christian faith.  In the last 20 years or so, however, there has been more Hawaiians who have seem to convert back to worshiping our ancient deities of the past.

As to the question as to how many Hawaiians actually think the mauna is sacred, I am sure those who have begun practicing our ancient religions, the mauna is very sacred to them.  However, I would argue the majority of us view the mountain with the same respect as most people would see the Notre-Dame Cathedral.

I'm not going to insult anybody by insisting that an island that has only been invaded and occupied
for the last 800 years is "ancient".
Ancient is Egyptian old Kingdom!
Another perspective is 13,000 years ago there were no people in the Americas.
Who owns the place now?
People that speak French, Portuguese, Spanish, and English.
In Hawaii what languages are spoken? Regularly
at home.  I can understand some Filipino, Spanish, Chinese,
and Japanese words if you don't talk too fast, but maybe only four
Hawaiian words.
That is who won.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #447 on: August 06, 2019, 11:10:09 AM »
I'm not going to insult anybody by insisting that an island that has only been invaded and occupied
for the last 800 years is "ancient".
Ancient is Egyptian old Kingdom!
Another perspective is 13,000 years ago there were no people in the Americas.
Who owns the place now?
People that speak French, Portuguese, Spanish, and English.
In Hawaii what languages are spoken? Regularly
at home.  I can understand some Filipino, Spanish, Chinese,
and Japanese words if you don't talk too fast, but maybe only four
Hawaiian words.
That is who won.

When I first arrived in Hawaii in the early 90s, reports stated that Japanese was the #1 language spoken at home in the islands.

Sometimes it doesn't take an "illegal annexation" to take over a society.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #448 on: August 06, 2019, 11:12:41 AM »
When I first arrived in Hawaii in the early 90s, reports stated that Japanese was the #1 language spoken at home in the islands.

Sometimes it doesn't take an "illegal annexation" to take over a society.

Yakamashi.  Opsec bro.

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #449 on: August 06, 2019, 11:23:12 AM »
Yakamashi.  Opsec bro.
Pardon the accent
Jung wa ren!

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #450 on: August 06, 2019, 11:37:09 AM »
.
.........but maybe only four
Hawaiian words.
That is who won.
Let me guess.
Aloha
Mahalo
Pau
and Ainokea.  LOL
Happily living in Puna

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #451 on: August 06, 2019, 11:38:36 AM »
Let me guess.
Aloha
Mahalo
Pau
and Ainokea Luau.  LOL
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #452 on: August 06, 2019, 11:50:34 AM »
Ainokea was a joke.  Other common words that almost everybody who has lived in Hawaii for a couple of years and that groveler probably knows is kane, wahine, tutu, hale, hele, lua, poi and a dozen more.
Happily living in Puna

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #453 on: August 06, 2019, 11:52:14 AM »
Ainokea was a joke.  Other common words that almost everybody who has lived in Hawaii for a couple of years and that groveler probably knows is kane, wahine, tutu, hale, hele, lua, poi and a dozen more.

I know.  I was focused more on what tourists learn on the plane ride over here, or what they read on the swinging doors of garbage cans ("Mahalo!").

 :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #454 on: August 06, 2019, 12:33:28 PM »
Ainokea was a joke.  Other common words that almost everybody who has lived in Hawaii for a couple of years and that groveler probably knows is kane, wahine, tutu, hale, hele, lua, poi and a dozen more.
OK, you got me there.
I don't know about a dozen more.
I just know the Japanese word for going Pee
is nearly the same as Chinese Mandarin for
"teacher". You just have to just screw it up a
little bit.

Kuleana

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #455 on: August 06, 2019, 01:15:01 PM »
I'm sure I've said this before.  I really don't care if the TMT gets built.
I worked on the summit of Mauna Kea for almost ten years.
I have nothing but disgust for Hawaiian culturalism practitioners.
I've watched them. I've had breakfast with them.
They are two faced forked tongued liars.  It is all about the money.
TMT will probably move to Spain and might get built.
Hawaiians still here will still be on a wait list controlled by Hawaiians.
You can stare at the "pimples" on the summit and blame that for all
your ills, but the fact is you are stupid and failures.
I'm quite sure Kamehameha would have obliterated you.

Kamehameha the Great killed a lot of people, but would have done everything in his power to restore his nation if he were alive today.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #456 on: August 06, 2019, 01:22:14 PM »
Kamehameha the Great killed a lot of people, but would have done everything in his power to restore his nation if he were alive today.

Purely hypothetical conjecture. 

Did you ever meet Kamehameha the Great?  If not, you have no way to know who he really was nor what he would have, or would not have, done in a given situation.

He may have been given the Dole lands and been happy to have the US annex his "kingdom."  Much easier than killing people to take their lands.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #457 on: August 06, 2019, 01:33:42 PM »
Some protesters now breaking FCC laws and challenging them to do something about it.

https://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2019/08/04/video-mauna-kea-radio-broadcasts-defy-fcc/
Happily living in Puna

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #458 on: August 06, 2019, 01:41:39 PM »
Some protesters now breaking FCC laws and challenging them to do something about it.

https://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2019/08/04/video-mauna-kea-radio-broadcasts-defy-fcc/

FCC enforcement is usually a fine or letter to stop doing whatever you're doing.

Big whoop.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #459 on: August 06, 2019, 02:28:47 PM »
Still breaking the law and getting away with it.
Happily living in Puna