First of all, there are a number of very good cops, but that does that mean they are not or do not behave fascistically.

Second, tell that to Groveler.

There you go again, leaning on Groveler to back up your BS when you can't do it by yourself.


Groveler posts opinions (as do you).  He's not here as a tie-breaker when your opinions can't be supported by any evidence.


Maybe give Joe Biden a buzz?


"We choose FACTS over the TRUTH!"

Why do you keep falling back on Groveler? This is your argument.

Groveler, Vietnam veteran, is the foremost honest expert on the role and conduct of police in America on this forum.

Hence, he is a far better authority on this issue than I am and you should direct all of your pro-cop arguments to him as well.

Unless, of course, you are afraid to do so or your only purpose is to prove your argument to me.

There you go again, leaning on Groveler to back up your BS when he can't do it by yourself.

So, are you afraid of taking your arguments to Groveler as well?

So, are you afraid of taking your arguments to Groveler as well?

You have the most  -- active -- imagination on this forum, I have to admit.

You have the most  -- active -- imagination on this forum, I have to admit.

Well, I look forward to you entering a discussion about police and police brutality with Groveler.

Well, I look forward to you entering a discussion about police and police brutality with Groveler.

Did you put him on retainer?


You should PM him with some number$.

Groveler, Vietnam veteran, is the foremost honest expert on the role and conduct of police in America on this forum.

Hence, he is a far better authority on this issue than I am and you should direct all of your pro-cop arguments to him as well.

Unless, of course, you are afraid to do so or your only purpose is to prove your argument to me.

What is this "fear" you are trying to inject into this argument? You started this thread and argument. Stand up for it. You bring up Groveler for support because he shares some views as you. There are lots of campaign veterans here on this forum; some police officers as well. How is being in the Vietnam campaign make a person an expert on domestic police matters?

What is this "fear" you are trying to inject into this argument? You started this thread and argument. Stand up for it. You bring up Groveler for support because he shares some views as you. There are lots of campaign veterans here on this forum; some police officers as well. How is being in the Vietnam campaign make a person an expert on domestic police matters?

I'm sure there have been a few fundamental changes in law enforcement since the Vietnam era as well.  Opinions based on the 60s and 70s are likely to be obsolete some 50-60 years later.


That's just my opinion. You should ask macsak to see if he concurs, though.

What is this "fear" you are trying to inject into this argument? You started this thread and argument. Stand up for it.

I already had a lot of exchanges with you in this thread that I feel were adequate enough to address the issues you raise.

You bring up Groveler for support because he shares some views as you. There are lots of campaign veterans here on this forum; some police officers as well. How is being in the Vietnam campaign make a person an expert on domestic police matters?

Groveler was one of the few Americans that I ever knew, who willingly signed up to serve his nation during one of the most unpopular wars undertaken by the US.  That kind of resolve is rare to start with and says much about his character.  He is a man of deep conviction and will stick to his guns, no matter how unpopular his stance may be to his peers.

In regards to his understanding of police, he does not let political correctness get in his way on his overall analysis on what cops really are, who they really serve, and their true nature, if push comes to shove.  That is why I am a student of his views of police and will always defer to him on this issue.

I already had a lot of exchanges with you in this thread that I feel were adequate enough to address the issues you raise.




Groveler was one of the few Americans that I ever knew, who willingly signed up to serve his nation during one of the most unpopular wars undertaken by the US.  That kind of resolve is rare to start with and says much about his character.  He is a man of deep conviction and will stick to his guns, no matter how unpopular his stance may be to his peers.

In regards to his understanding of police, he does not let political correctness get in his way on his overall analysis on what cops really are, who they really serve, and their true nature, if push comes to shove.  That is why I am a student of his views of police and will always defer to him on this issue.

Translation:  "Groveler confirms my biases, so his opinion carries more weight than anybody else's on here."


Gotcha.   

Translation:  "Groveler confirms my biases, so his opinion carries more weight than anybody else's on here."

Oh Flapp, his views resonate more truth in regards to cops that most others, who have posted on this topic in this forum.

If you have not noticed recently, outside of the gutless rioters and looters taking advantage of the current situation, there are literally thousands of other people, who apparently agree with Groveler's take on fascists police goons that are peacefully protesting the latest murder of George Floyd all across the US.

Oh Flapp, his views resonate more truth in regards to cops that most others, who have posted on this topic in this forum.

If you have not noticed recently, outside of the gutless rioters and looters taking advantage of the current situation, there are literally thousands of other people, who apparently agree with Groveler's take on fascists police goons that are peacefully protesting the latest murder of George Floyd all across the US.

Thousands of people also agreed Trump was/is a Russian asset.


Popularity of opinion has never been the best barometer for the truth.  Maybe your relatives moved to Hawaii from Salem, Mass?

Thousands of people also agreed Trump was/is a Russian asset.

Yes, but you don't see all of those who believed that Trump was a Russian asset take to the streets, riot, and loot do you?

Big difference.

Maybe your relatives moved to Hawaii from Salem, Mass?

Personal insults to my family.

This is how low you need to go to prove your point?

Yes, but you don't see all of those who believed that Trump was a Russian asset take to the streets, riot, and loot do you?

Big difference.


Personal insults to my family.

This is how low you need to go to prove your point?

there is a rally today at the State Capitol you going? There was one yesterday did you go? You'd find more support for your arguments there.

there is a rally today at the State Capitol you going? There was one yesterday did you go? You'd find more support for your arguments there.

Is that the reason why you engage in a discussion forum; you are looking for personal validation or support?

I engage in thread posting for a discussion or debate of ideas.

Is that the reason why you engage in a discussion forum; you are looking for personal validation or support?

I engage in thread posting for a discussion or debate of ideas.

but you deflect to another person i.e. Groveler for rebuttals. I'm not seeking any support.  Could care less. Not much traffic here in terms of shooting topics such as reloading or shooting. Seems to be more traffic here on pol stuff.

I'm listening to the spaceX launch.,
so decided to make a comment.
Interesting comments here.
One thing I want to make perfectly
Clear is I'm a Vietnam era vet,
I never went to Vietnam.
My first job was fixing B52H
avionics, some of these aircraft were
armed with Nuclear weapons.
That is why I say I was crawling around
nukes when I was 18.
I enlisted at age 17.
Another thing,  my BIL,  is retired USMC.
He is presently a Federal police officer.
So I know at least ONE honorable and trustworthy
Cop.

Looks like launch is on.

but you deflect to another person i.e. Groveler for rebuttals. I'm not seeking any support.  Could care less. Not much traffic here in terms of shooting topics such as reloading or shooting. Seems to be more traffic here on pol stuff.

No, I don't.

Just trying to prove a point that in your case, you are more consumed with personally proving something that you feel is right just to me, rather debating the issue.  Groveler is much more experienced on this issue and since you passionately want to prove police are not the fascist cops that they are truly are on the inside, then engage him into your discussion.

What is your excuse to not present your arguments to him?

I got six years in the military
for Felony assault on a cop,
and a Bailiff.

   No offense to Grov but that doesn't sound like "willingly signed up to serve" to me.     
That post may also shows why he may have originally found disdain with LE.   

   No offense to Grov but that doesn't sound like "willingly signed up to serve" to me.     
That post may also shows why he may have originally found disdain with LE.   

How do we know that Groveler was not responding to being roughed up by those people?