You obviously believe that you live in a world run by trustworthy leaders who consistently make competent decisions based on their overwhelming sense of responsibility for our well being.

Good luck with that.

And what is the alternative? Trust no one and cling to the best conspiracy theory? The logic you suggest would allow us to know nothing beyond our own little world.

Do I trust leaders? Sometimes. Do I trust that the average doctor, scientist, etc are trying to do good jobs and are competent? Yes.
I look for the data rather than some politician's spin.

And what is the alternative? Trust no one and cling to the best conspiracy theory? The logic you suggest would allow us to know nothing beyond our own little world.

Do I trust leaders? Sometimes. Do I trust that the average doctor, scientist, etc are trying to do good jobs and are competent? Yes.
I look for the data rather than some politician's spin.

But you don't believe the data. The data says these jabs are dangerous, in most cases completely unnecessary, and forcing everyone to take them just so big pharma can rake in billions is a terrible idea.

You believe the people on television who are consistently wrong about everything.

And what is the alternative? Trust no one and cling to the best conspiracy theory? The logic you suggest would allow us to know nothing beyond our own little world.

Do I trust leaders? Sometimes. Do I trust that the average doctor, scientist, etc are trying to do good jobs and are competent? Yes.
I look for the data rather than some politician's spin.

US has 1 data, many other countries has another (UK, Canada, Israel, Australia,etc...). So who u gonna believe.

Example: guy gets arrested for dui even though his 5 friends told him not to drive home.

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And what is the alternative? Trust no one and cling to the best conspiracy theory? The logic you suggest would allow us to know nothing beyond our own little world.

Do I trust leaders? Sometimes. Do I trust that the average doctor, scientist, etc are trying to do good jobs and are competent? Yes.
I look for the data rather than some politician's spin.

No.  The alternative is to hold the press and government officials accountable.  Without the public enforcing standards of ethics and integrity, the people we depend on for the truth have no external motivation to be truthful.

I see people lying in front of Congress in many important hearings, but they are never ever brought to answer for their lies.

The data says these jabs are dangerous, in most cases completely unnecessary, and forcing everyone to take them just so big pharma can rake in billions is a terrible idea.

Thats not what the data shows.

It is always frustratingly entertaining that people are so sure the new and majority of doctors, organizations, etc. are all lying to us but are so quick to believe the few individuals with a cult of personality or who will say something people want to hear. They won't trust a pharma guy (very understanable) but they will trust some guy selling some "all natural super cure"

US has 1 data, many other countries has another (UK, Canada, Israel, Australia,etc...). So who u gonna believe.

Example: guy gets arrested for dui even though his 5 friends told him not to drive home.

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What sets of data are you referring to? Are you referring to the vaccine, covid rates, ?

And some variation should be understandable given the many variables. Polulation density, racial differences, weather, rules, compliance rates, etc.

Thats not what the data shows.

It is always frustratingly entertaining that people are so sure the new and majority of doctors, organizations, etc. are all lying to us but are so quick to believe the few individuals with a cult of personality or who will say something people want to hear. They won't trust a pharma guy (very understanable) but they will trust some guy selling some "all natural super cure"

You should take note that most doctors did not perform independent studies or experiments to obtain said opinions.  They were fed the information in journals and via pharmaceutical reps.  So, even if there's a consensus, it's all based on the same data.

Until the data is verified and empirically validated, we're constrained by whatever is provided -- in this case, it's a short-term, corporate-funded collection of data.  Just because the CDC regurgitates the data doesn't mean it's perfect.

Science involves skepticism, not blind faith.  And accusing skeptics of following conspiracies after so many failures on the part of the "experts" during the pandemic, you're basically becoming a useful idiot -- willfully pushing a narrative and bullying opposing voices with no independent knowledge whatsoever. 

I'd say skepticism is warranted.

What sets of data are you referring to? Are you referring to the vaccine, covid rates, ?

And some variation should be understandable given the many variables. Polulation density, racial differences, weather, rules, compliance rates, etc.

Everhthing is different compared to the US. I suggest u look up Israel for starters. They use pfizet, which is what we use here. Or read the covid thread, but go back 2months or so.

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You should take note that most doctors did not perform independent studies or experiments to obtain said opinions.  They were fed the information in journals and via pharmaceutical reps.  So, even if there's a consensus, it's all based on the same data.

Until the data is verified and empirically validated, we're constrained by whatever is provided -- in this case, it's a short-term, corporate-funded collection of data.  Just because the CDC regurgitates the data doesn't mean it's perfect.

Science involves skepticism, not blind faith.  And accusing skeptics of following conspiracies after so many failures on the part of the "experts" during the pandemic, you're basically becoming a useful idiot -- willfully pushing a narrative and bullying opposing voices with no independent knowledge whatsoever. 

I'd say skepticism is warranted.

But a physician has the background education to understand whats being written in the journals and see beyond a medical sales pitch. Not saying they can never be mislead of fail to read the data, just pointing out that they are less likely to fall prey to misinformation than a layperson.

Until the data is verified and validated by who? Will we not be satisfied till Alex Jones tells us he looked into the data and says it is safe? Do you not believe covid is real or that people aren't dying from it? Do you really think this is just a house of cards with made up numbers everywhere? Lets put it this way, is it conceivable that maybe we are having a pandemic with a dangerous virus and most scientists, doctors, government officials, etc. are doing their best to respond to the situation but that just humans make mistakes and miscalculations? Which is more plausible, that or a giant conspiracy involving millions of people, scientists, doctors, news agencies, etc. all trying to trick us?

I am not saying all skeptics are falling victim to stupid conspiracy theories but some seem to be. I have had many conversations with skeptics who are perfectly reasonable in their hesitancy, but I have also met a few who have fallen hard for the dumbest conspiracy theories surrounding covid and the vaccine

Everhthing is different compared to the US. I suggest u look up Israel for starters. They use pfizet, which is what we use here. Or read the covid thread, but go back 2months or so.

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So you are saying that Israel has significantly different numbers surrounding the Pfizer vaccine? And not ones that can be attributed to vaccine rates, when delta hit them, the weather, etc?

I am not saying all skeptics are falling victim to stupid conspiracy theories but some seem to be. I have had many conversations with skeptics who are perfectly reasonable in their hesitancy, but I have also met a few who have fallen hard for the dumbest conspiracy theories surrounding covid and the vaccine

You can lay that blame squarely at the feet of the CDC. Fauci admitted he 'LIED for the greater good' about all this, he cant go 2 days without going on TV and  contradict himself constantly, he has made himself into a laughing stock.
They refuse to release full sets of data, and leave out a LOT of critical demographic information, they keep trying to push a One Sized Fits All solution, which in medicine is flat out stupid.
None of the CDC People forcing medical advice on everyone are medical clinicians or Internists (people who are actually trained to evaluate and care for patients), they are scientists, not practicing doctors.

Literally the CDCs only job is to collect data and communicate it effectively, they have failed MASSIVELY at their core mandate. If you talk to an actual non-hysterical doctor who is actually following the data as it comes out, the picture is WAY different than what you are seeing on TV, especially from the mouths of the spokes people for the CDC.


listen to the first 15 mins of each of these episodes and listen to Dr Drew who is really on top of all this talk about what is really going on and how different it is from what you are seeing / hearing on TV

https://www.podcastone.com/episode/1461-Nice-To-Have-A-Skill

https://www.podcastone.com/episode/1462-You-Wanna-Be-A-Hawk-Not-A-Bat

Hmmm.... Science from an actual Scientist, very very different than the Science coming from the Bureaucrats. She puts everything very plainly, gives very good examples, explanations and real world parallels.

That was good. It just confirms what I've been thinking all along.

Unvaccinated men in 2022

https://rumble.com/vkdkjx-unvaccinated-men-in-2022.html

Hmmm.... Science from an actual Scientist, very very different than the Science coming from the Bureaucrats. She puts everything very plainly, gives very good examples, explanations and real world parallels.

I am not going to sit here and try to evaluate/judge her claims because I don't have the background to do so but I will note that people seem to always find an expert who says what they like and hold it up as proof even if that expert represented 1 out of a 100 and 99 were saying the opposite. Heck, look at the lady who touted Hydroxychloroquine, she was a real doctor, an "expert" by meany measures and people pointed to her to support their beliefs BUT oh yeah she is a crazy lady who believed aliens or demons come have sex with humans.

I am not saying this lady is crazy or anything though as that is not quite what I am getting at here. What I am getting at is that with the internet it isn't hard for that 1 out of 100  or 1000 to speak contrary to the best current consensus among scientists about the data and get more attention than might be warranted by the actual situation. No one brings in the other 99 scientists to all say "yes the data shows X, government guidance is accurate" though. In effect we sometimes have a vocal minority getting the attention.

Now should these people be shut down? Absolutely not, but that doesn't mean this isn't necessarily a problem since people can latch onto these outlier opinions disproportionately and it can cause issues among society.

Imagine the following hypothetical: A big earth quake happens in the pacific and the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center issues an alarm that a big tsunami will hit Hawaii within 12 hours. News, radio, government officials all tell people to evacuate low lying areas. But we have some guy on Facebook with solid scientific credentials and he claims that the warning is just government trying to control us and scare us, to make Hawaii seem dangerous so we will have fewer tourists, etc. People who listen to this expert could end up dying if they don't evacuate. Maybe they don't trust tsunami science, maybe they don't trust the governor, etc etc. End result could be many people dying unnecessarily.

I am not going to sit here and try to evaluate/judge her claims because I don't have the background to do so but I will note that people seem to always find an expert who says what they like and hold it up as proof even if that expert represented 1 out of a 100 and 99 were saying the opposite. Heck, look at the lady who touted Hydroxychloroquine, she was a real doctor, an "expert" by meany measures and people pointed to her to support their beliefs BUT oh yeah she is a crazy lady who believed aliens or demons come have sex with humans.

I am not saying this lady is crazy or anything though as that is not quite what I am getting at here. What I am getting at is that with the internet it isn't hard for that 1 out of 100  or 1000 to speak contrary to the best current consensus among scientists about the data and get more attention than might be warranted by the actual situation. No one brings in the other 99 scientists to all say "yes the data shows X, government guidance is accurate" though. In effect we sometimes have a vocal minority getting the attention.

Now should these people be shut down? Absolutely not, but that doesn't mean this isn't necessarily a problem since people can latch onto these outlier opinions disproportionately and it can cause issues among society.

Imagine the following hypothetical: A big earth quake happens in the pacific and the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center issues an alarm that a big tsunami will hit Hawaii within 12 hours. News, radio, government officials all tell people to evacuate low lying areas. But we have some guy on Facebook with solid scientific credentials and he claims that the warning is just government trying to control us and scare us, to make Hawaii seem dangerous so we will have fewer tourists, etc. People who listen to this expert could end up dying if they don't evacuate. Maybe they don't trust tsunami science, maybe they don't trust the governor, etc etc. End result could be many people dying unnecessarily.

Lie Hagi mentioned many times 1 hurricane going hit.

Then to add to the hypothetical, hpd has orders to confiscate all guns door to door so when tsunami does it, guns dont fall into the wrong hands. Would hpd do it? There is no natural disaster issued yet.

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You can lay that blame squarely at the feet of the CDC. Fauci admitted he 'LIED for the greater good' about all this, he cant go 2 days without going on TV and  contradict himself constantly, he has made himself into a laughing stock.
They refuse to release full sets of data, and leave out a LOT of critical demographic information, they keep trying to push a One Sized Fits All solution, which in medicine is flat out stupid.
None of the CDC People forcing medical advice on everyone are medical clinicians or Internists (people who are actually trained to evaluate and care for patients), they are scientists, not practicing doctors.

Literally the CDCs only job is to collect data and communicate it effectively, they have failed MASSIVELY at their core mandate. If you talk to an actual non-hysterical doctor who is actually following the data as it comes out, the picture is WAY different than what you are seeing on TV, especially from the mouths of the spokes people for the CDC.


listen to the first 15 mins of each of these episodes and listen to Dr Drew who is really on top of all this talk about what is really going on and how different it is from what you are seeing / hearing on TV

https://www.podcastone.com/episode/1461-Nice-To-Have-A-Skill

https://www.podcastone.com/episode/1462-You-Wanna-Be-A-Hawk-Not-A-Bat

I thought Fauci made a mistake with his "noble lie" but I understand why he did it. It was a bit of a gamble and I think it didn't pay off, I think it hurt his credibility. The problem is where people use that fact as a justification to ignore Facui where they want. People already wanting fo avoid mask mandates as unconstitutional communistic assaults on their freedom used this lie to affirm their belief. The objective individual should be able to see that though Facui did lie to us it is possible that he did so with good intentions. Leaders are people and perfectly capable of dumb mistakes. People always assume mass corruption and conspiracy in government but usually it is just humans making dumb human mistakes. Case in point, many of the best scientists aren't very good public speakers, they are nerdy and technical and hard to understand so we get advice that doesn't resonate well with the laypeople, not because they are all lying to us but because of a failure to communicate effectively.

What do you mean they refuse to release full sets of data? There is data from all sorts of sources, federal, state, local, private and governmental data, etc. I just don't know what sets of data you are suggesting they are hiding from us.

As far as your claim, I find it hard to believe that the CDC doesn't employ any medical doctors, just "scientists". So the CDC made all their recommendations without the input of any doctors?

Take a look at this guy's videos. He does a good job of seeing all sides. He totally sides with people who are skeptical, how they have rational reasons but he also explains why he thinks the data and science shows the vaccines are safe and effective for most people.

I am not going to sit here and try to evaluate/judge her claims because I don't have the background to do so but I will note that people seem to always find an expert who says what they like and hold it up as proof even if that expert represented 1 out of a 100 and 99 were saying the opposite. Heck, look at the lady who touted Hydroxychloroquine, she was a real doctor, an "expert" by meany measures and people pointed to her to support their beliefs BUT oh yeah she is a crazy lady who believed aliens or demons come have sex with humans.

I am not saying this lady is crazy or anything though as that is not quite what I am getting at here. What I am getting at is that with the internet it isn't hard for that 1 out of 100  or 1000 to speak contrary to the best current consensus among scientists about the data and get more attention than might be warranted by the actual situation. No one brings in the other 99 scientists to all say "yes the data shows X, government guidance is accurate" though. In effect we sometimes have a vocal minority getting the attention.

Now should these people be shut down? Absolutely not, but that doesn't mean this isn't necessarily a problem since people can latch onto these outlier opinions disproportionately and it can cause issues among society.

Imagine the following hypothetical: A big earth quake happens in the pacific and the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center issues an alarm that a big tsunami will hit Hawaii within 12 hours. News, radio, government officials all tell people to evacuate low lying areas. But we have some guy on Facebook with solid scientific credentials and he claims that the warning is just government trying to control us and scare us, to make Hawaii seem dangerous so we will have fewer tourists, etc. People who listen to this expert could end up dying if they don't evacuate. Maybe they don't trust tsunami science, maybe they don't trust the governor, etc etc. End result could be many people dying unnecessarily.

The same government that falsely pulled the alert trigger on a missile from NK? Covid 19 and a tsunami are different topics with lots of different variables. An infection versus an incoming wave of water with some degree of predictability and timetable. Covid19 has no timetable. The government is controlling that right now.

I thought Fauci made a mistake with his "noble lie" but I understand why he did it. It was a bit of a gamble and I think it didn't pay off, I think it hurt his credibility. The problem is where people use that fact as a justification to ignore Facui where they want. People already wanting fo avoid mask mandates as unconstitutional communistic assaults on their freedom used this lie to affirm their belief. The objective individual should be able to see that though Facui did lie to us it is possible that he did so with good intentions. Leaders are people and perfectly capable of dumb mistakes. People always assume mass corruption and conspiracy in government but usually it is just humans making dumb human mistakes. Case in point, many of the best scientists aren't very good public speakers, they are nerdy and technical and hard to understand so we get advice that doesn't resonate well with the laypeople, not because they are all lying to us but because of a failure to communicate effectively.

What do you mean they refuse to release full sets of data? There is data from all sorts of sources, federal, state, local, private and governmental data, etc. I just don't know what sets of data you are suggesting they are hiding from us.

As far as your claim, I find it hard to believe that the CDC doesn't employ any medical doctors, just "scientists". So the CDC made all their recommendations without the input of any doctors?

Take a look at this guy's videos. He does a good job of seeing all sides. He totally sides with people who are skeptical, how they have rational reasons but he also explains why he thinks the data and science shows the vaccines are safe and effective for most people.

When does a liar ever have a good intention? And masks? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that very well may be the reason why we are at high infection rates. There is no standard for masks. No procedure to educate the public on proper donning of them. Simple test. Put on your everyday mask and spray some cologne. Can you smell it? How often do you touch your face since wearing a mask? Do you wash your hands before you touch your face? How about after you take off your mask - do you throw it away and get a fresh sterile one?
Check out 7:40

Lie Hagi mentioned many times 1 hurricane going hit.

Then to add to the hypothetical, hpd has orders to confiscate all guns door to door so when tsunami does it, guns dont fall into the wrong hands. Would hpd do it? There is no natural disaster issued yet.

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Having to wear a mask is not even comparable to gun confiscation.

I could have predicted Guy Hagi would be mentioned in reply but I don't think that is relevant. If the tsunami warning center says a tsunami is coming, which is the safer bet? That the tsunami warning center is trying to protect us and doing their best to give an accurate prediction despite not being a perfect science?  OR that there is a big conspiracy to deny us our rights to go to the beach? You gonna stay seated at the beach because the one expert said so?   Now consider, what if the expert was right and no tsunami came? Sucks to be sure as it ruined your plans but the alternative of if that expert was wrong could be widespread death.

So we have the government advising we wear masks and we have lab data showing masks should help reduce spread of covid but we also have a few experts saying masks don't work. Which is greater to potential loss of life if the masks do actually work or the potential inconvenience if the masks don't actually work?