I think Kaepernicks protest was based on a racist political lie but I also didn't care if he didn't want to stand for the anthem. Forced patriotism isn't real patriotism. 
To me the comparison is really just about to what extent freedom is the guiding principle.

Dunno about political lie. Maybe. I just don’t think he put a lot of thought into it, at least at first. It wasn’t until he got called out that he made like it was some noble act.

Freedom as guiding principle, I get that. What I hate is politicizing of personal choice. I’ve had folks accuse me of being some sort of uber conservative based on being an avid shooter and firearms owner. Couldn’t be further from the truth. That people try to pigeon hole people makes me 

Why do you care who someone (other than yourself) bases their personal choice on?

His post now are meant to cause discussion, not much of what he thinks and discuss his train of thought. Although it eventually may lead to that later. Notice how he words the initial ideas.

I dont have time for random discussions just for the hell of it or for fun.  To me, thats boring. But to each their own.

So if i do reply, its simple responses and wont get into detail.



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

according to one member, we are supposed to listen to the majority...

Can you time stamp that statement? Need to confirm the goal post location in time 

His post now are meant to cause discussion, not much of what he thinks and discuss his train of thought. Although it eventually may lead to that later. Notice how he words the initial ideas.

I dont have time for random discussions just for the hell of it or for fun.  To me, thats boring. But to each their own.

So if i do reply, its simple responses and wont get into detail.



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Nah. I get the point. My counterpoint was why does anyone in general care if someone else’s personal choice. I mean I can get why in many cases. Partially rhetorical.

Go ponder 45 vs 9 some more. 

So science had absolutely no bearing on the vast majority of physicians being vaccinated?

"absolutely no bearing on" and "not following the majority" are not synonymous.

#GoalPostInTransit...

I think Kaepernicks protest was based on a racist political lie but I also didn't care if he didn't want to stand for the anthem. Forced patriotism isn't real patriotism. 
To me the comparison is really just about to what extent freedom is the guiding principle.

As for your other question, I didn't intend for this to be another covid/vaccine debate thread. This one is about ideologies and how they interact with political groups, leaders, and triablism.

Nobody is forcing anyone's "patriotism."  Is that really what you think is happening, or do you simply not understand the customs and traditions regarding national symbols?

There's nothing wrong with showing respect for the country in which you're making millions of dollars playing a freaking game.

There's not another country in the world as great as the US.  For all our flaws, we do enough things right to offset the bad a thousand times over.

If you go to Japan and bow when greeting someone, are they forcing you to adopt their customs and courtesies, or are you simply showing the person respect according to their culture?

You can show respect for someone or something without acting like an infant.  It's not hard to separate one political issue from what the flag and anthem actually stand for.

for f8cks sake. What range too far for you too?

for f8cks sake. What range too far for you too?

Nah, he brings up better points than the other guy. I just choose not to go into his post for reason I posted above.  So since his arguments are better once he makes a statement of opinion, I may further add my $0.02.

Example: We went round and round when red flag laws came about.  We both never saw eye to eye.

Nobody is forcing anyone's "patriotism."  Is that really what you think is happening, or do you simply not understand the customs and traditions regarding national symbols?

That’s the most frustrating part about dealing with people who are under the influence of deconstructionist propaganda. They honestly believe that there is some sort of salvation or promised land waiting for them after they tear the world apart, but they overestimate their own ability to come up with something better and as a result spread misery and death.

Its easy to pick them out these days. So-called “radical thinkers” are obedient servants to an entrenched elite, eager for some crumbs off the table

You don’t see Kaepernick turning down his Nike sponsorship money because of their atrocious human rights record

That’s also why EEF supports medical apartheid and doesn’t understand why we wouldn’t do the same if the script was flipped. All the deconstructionists care about is power and as a result concepts like freedom and liberty seem nonsensical to them. Why would anyone want to be left alone when they could force others to do their will?

You can’t reason with someone like that, just point out the disasters of collectivism and hope people remember why it’s a terrible idea

 

I posted this b4 in the previous thread about Kap and his "protest".  If a KKK player wanted to walk into the stadium with a nazi flag or burn a cross on the sideline, would he be allowed to do it?  I can guarantee the answer is no. So "free speech" is only allowed by the NFL if you fit the right narrative.  And the fact that the 1a is so the government cannot censor you. Private entities can do as they wish.  This crumbles the lefts entire story.

I think that tribalism causes people to choose sides based on what their tribe is doing/saying and that this can be stronger than ideological consistency, science, and maybe even religion.

Curious, what tribe am I?
Polish jew?, Scottish highlander?
Norman?
I evaluate all people based on how they can help me or oppose me.
That is it.  Tribe, race,  or what ever doesn't factor in.
Individuals built America.  Tribes are on reservations.
Ya'll get it?
Democrats?
 

Groveler you are one of the few here who is not in a tribe. And I truly believe you are not in a tribe. 
I don’t think Rocky’s in a tribe, inspector Dave’s not in a tribe, OF is not in a tribe.
Once a person starts to go to the echo chamber, they joined a tribe.
America is turning into 3 tribes: Left, Right and Independent. And Independent is a dying breed.
Just how I see it.

America is turning into 3 tribes: Left, Right and Independent. And Independent is a dying breed.
Just how I see it.

We covered this in the election fraud post, but if independents voted for Trump instead of a horse who has no chance of winning, then the DNC would have to cheat that much more, which would be a little more obvious.

There's not another country in the world as great as the US.  For all our flaws, we do enough things right to offset the bad a thousand times over.

With all due respect Flapp; if you are referring, to the former American Republic, then maybe relatively better than many nations, of the past.

If you are referring, to the current US empire, then it ranks among the most heinous and evil empires the human race has ever seen, in the modern era.

We covered this in the election fraud post, but if independents voted for Trump instead of a horse who has no chance of winning, then the DNC would have to cheat that much more, which would be a little more obvious.

It's the American Idol effect.

Voting for Team Biden, Team Trump, Team Hillary, etc. shows a collective mentality -- that you aren't supporting the person as much as belonging to a group (tribe) that supports the person.  Sometimes you pick your team based on all the wrong factors.  You just like that team because you have been part of that team in other contests.

IN 2016, lots of people voted against Hillary -- many of them by simply not voting for anyone.Team "Anybody but HER!"

This is what happens when most people don't care enough to learn about each candidate independently from the media -- who, BTW, always endorses a candidate.  Can't expect unbiased reporting from them, even before the Internet.

Most voters can't articulate why the chose the person they are casting their ballot for.  This is why we've devolved into tribes.  I'm voting for the guy leading my tribe because I'm part of the tribe.  Can't get more Lemming-like than that.

With all due respect Flapp; if you are referring, to the former American Republic, then maybe relatively better than many nations, of the past.

If you are referring, to the current US empire, then it ranks among the most heinous and evil empires the human race has ever seen, in the modern era.

It's my opinion. 

Imagine the world without a United States of America.  Do you think it would be better or worse?  Would another world leader have done better?  Worse?  If Hitler wasn't stopped by the Allies -- in great part by the US -- would Europe be under the heel of a totalitarian dictator to this day?  Would Russia have won the Cold War before it even started?  Would Japan have annexed the entire region inside the Pacific Rim?

No need to derail this thread.  Just a "thought experiment."

Everyone has a right to his/her/its opinion, but not all opinions are right.   

We covered this in the election fraud post, but if independents voted for Trump instead of a horse who has no chance of winning, then the DNC would have to cheat that much more, which would be a little more obvious.

I voted for Trump and against Mazie and the little guy Schitz and for Blangiardi and Sam Kong.
Independents can go all over the board.

His post now are meant to cause discussion, not much of what he thinks and discuss his train of thought. Although it eventually may lead to that later. Notice how he words the initial ideas.

I dont have time for random discussions just for the hell of it or for fun.  To me, thats boring. But to each their own.

So if i do reply, its simple responses and wont get into detail.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

I think an understanding of my thought process might help. If I really want to talk about an issue I like to first sort of set out that issue like a debate moderator might. Provide some facts and context to set the groundwork. So for example ask if pinneapple is good on pizza. Then cover that pepperoni is spicy and salty while pinneapple is acidic and sweet.

Then when the discussion gets going I will usually state my opinion. Often I have an opinion though sometimes I don't but just find the discussion itself interesting. I don't like to lead out with just an argument of pineapples on pizza is awesome. If you don't like this type of discussion I totally get it, no judgements on you. My wife has no interest in debates of any kind.


One of the reasons I started this thread is that I have been listening to a number of podcasts about the human brain and how societies interact. This is where I nerd out a little bit but I find it very interesting at just how unobjective the human brain can be and how often tribalism really dictates our thinking. The podcasts have covered a number of studies which illustrate how susceptible to false memories, group think, tribalism, etc. Politics just seems to be such a perfect example of this the way people divide so consistently along political lines and over issues.

Curious, what tribe am I?
Polish jew?, Scottish highlander?
Norman?
I evaluate all people based on how they can help me or oppose me.
That is it.  Tribe, race,  or what ever doesn't factor in.
Individuals built America.  Tribes are on reservations.
Ya'll get it?
Democrats?
 

In the sociological sense tribe could really be any sort of a group identity. It could be people from Hawaii, it could be democrats, it could be a religious group, it could be whatever commonality people may be organizing around. The human brain has a rather strong desire to behave in a way that makes one fit within their tribe. Don't cause waves, don't disagree with the leader, don't do anything to "harm" the group.

In Japanese there is a saying that the nail that stands out gets hammered down.

Nobody is forcing anyone's "patriotism."  Is that really what you think is happening, or do you simply not understand the customs and traditions regarding national symbols?

There's nothing wrong with showing respect for the country in which you're making millions of dollars playing a freaking game.

There's not another country in the world as great as the US.  For all our flaws, we do enough things right to offset the bad a thousand times over.

If you go to Japan and bow when greeting someone, are they forcing you to adopt their customs and courtesies, or are you simply showing the person respect according to their culture?

You can show respect for someone or something without acting like an infant.  It's not hard to separate one political issue from what the flag and anthem actually stand for.

We can be technical I suppose. Firing you for not getting a vaccine is not forcing you to get a vaccine either, the only actual forced vaccine would be if they strapped you down and jabbed you. When I said forced I did not mean litterally forced, Kaepernick didn't have a gun to his head telling him to stand up for the anthem. We could use the word coerced if you prefer.

My point was that coerced patriotism isn't real patriotism because it wasn't something done out of someone's own free will. Patriotism should be something someone voluntarily chooses because they love the country, not because they will be made fun of or fired for. If I told me wife to say "I love you" or I will throw her out of the house would that mean anything? Of course not.

Does the NFL have the power to make arbitrary rules saying players have to stand during the anthem? Sure, they can make whatever rules they want, but my point was about NFL fans who wanted him to be fired for not standing. How is that significantly different than democrats who want us fired from private businesses if we don't get the vaccine? And not standing for the anthem doesn't even harm anyone. I think, as conservatives, our calls for and respect for personal freedoms should be consistent. If Kaepernick doesn't want to stand because he bought into the lie from BLM or he is doing it as a PR stunt, or whatever might have been going on in his head, then fine. I don't like him or agree with him but I am not going to coerce him to stand.