So are you of the position that once someone is released from prison that they should have full rights restored, including the right to own firearms, vote, etc?

Plus, there are many other examples where individuals can have rights restricted without actually being in prison including age, nationality, mental faculties, etc.

Many of the restrictions you mention have clear situations. Like not being able to vote till age 18 for all.  Or signing legal documents.  For nationality, again, across the board, but our laws do state permanent resident, so 1 can be of English nationality/citizenship, but still own guns.  People here on temp visa's are across the board denied. Mental faculties all depend on what state you're in, HI loves to deny these people, but other states are OK.  Which if you told someone who needs mental help they would also loose all their guns, then they would refuse said help. So double edged sword.  Which is why non anti-2a reasonable accommodations need to be made.

If you break the law and paid your debt, then rights should be restored.  IIRC there was a bill for this. Something like 10 years no convictions. The bigger issue is the prison system here doesn't work. How do I know this, 70% reincarnation rate.  So how do you get rights back if what you were sent in prison for (rehabilitation) doesn't work for majority of the criminals?  Which is why I said "should" in my statement.

I already gave those reasons. It is an additional avenue to obtain a firearm by people who would otherwise have more difficulty in obtaining a firearm.


Ask CMO

A gun that was used in a murder, which according to VICE sells for cheaper.  Because if you're caught with it, you will be the one charged for murder.   But realistically, how does 1 know?  I mean honor system of the illegal seller?  Honor amongst thieves.

A gun that was used in a murder, which according to VICE sells for cheaper.  Because if you're caught with it, you will be the one charged for murder.   But realistically, how does 1 know?  I mean honor system of the illegal seller?  Honor amongst thieves.

It would be interesting to see an economic study about something like this.

I can only assume that someone selling black market guns needs to have earned trust of his customers and part of that would be honesty over something like a murder weapon.

It all depends on if the person is good with their hands or not. Like if someone can wood craft mediocrally (IDK if this is a word)  at a minimum, then they should have no issue making a P80 and have it function correctly.

This is the reason why I never attempted to make a P80, even though legal at the time, because I'm not good with my hands. The most I can do is change my oil and car battery. Everything else is above my pay grade.  So if I were to make 1, it would most likely jam often or come out lop sided.

So I agree that to you, making a P80 is easier than getting a black market gun, especially since someone you would be buying it from knows what you do for a living and probably won't sell you a black market gun.

So do you know people in the black market, you have a source for getting a black market gun if you wanted? Personally I don't so a P80 would be just that much easier.

I have seen some P80 assembly videos, it really isn't that complicated. And heck, if I wanted to sell them on the black market I could churn them out much safer than buying/stealing stolen firearms and reselling them.

P80s are not machine guns

Many of the restrictions you mention have clear situations. Like not being able to vote till age 18 for all.  Or signing legal documents.  For nationality, again, across the board, but our laws do state permanent resident, so 1 can be of English nationality/citizenship, but still own guns.  People here on temp visa's are across the board denied. Mental faculties all depend on what state you're in, HI loves to deny these people, but other states are OK.  Which if you told someone who needs mental help they would also loose all their guns, then they would refuse said help. So double edged sword.  Which is why non anti-2a reasonable accommodations need to be made.

If you break the law and paid your debt, then rights should be restored.  IIRC there was a bill for this. Something like 10 years no convictions. The bigger issue is the prison system here doesn't work. How do I know this, 70% reincarnation rate.  So how do you get rights back if what you were sent in prison for (rehabilitation) doesn't work for majority of the criminals?  Which is why I said "should" in my statement.

I am not disagreeing with your first point at all, just pointing out that many of our rights have limits. We don't all agree on where the limits should be drawn of course but "prohibited persons" exist all over the place.

I do agree that there needs to be a better system at restoring peoples rights after they have served their time for their crime.

I would argue that making a ghost gun is quite a bit easier than getting a black market gun.

If you rent an apartment or live with a friend, and you don't have any tools needed to compete an 80% receiver, completing the gun will be more difficult.

If you have zero experience building ARs, and you aren't mechanically inclined, it's a daunting task to build something you will hold next to your face, hoping it doesn't explode when fired.

In fact, there are 100 different ways one can muck up the assembly of an AR even without including the milling process.  Misaligned gas parts, springs missing from detents, head spacing problems, buying the wrong components (Trying to fit MILSPEC and Commercial parts together), and so forth.

Expecting the average person to build a "ghost gun" their first time without critical mistakes is irrational. 

And, before you say, "They probably have a friend to help," you're now making it JUST AS COMPLICATED as having an acquaintance on the black market who can sell you a gun that's already assembled at the factory.

So are you of the position that once someone is released from prison that they should have full rights restored, including the right to own firearms, vote, etc?

Plus, there are many other examples where individuals can have rights restricted without actually being in prison including age, nationality, mental faculties, etc.

You didn't reply to me, but since we've already debated this before, I thought I'd reiterate.

If someone is convicted of a crime other than one of violence, even a felony, I think once they have completed their sentence, their rights -- ALL OF THEIR RIGHTS -- should be restored.

Armed robbery, domestic abuse, and other violent crimes may offer a path to full restoration of rights if completed, such as probation, educational classes, and the like.

I think if someone is convicted of drug possession or auto theft, taking away 2nd Amendment rights is more punitive  than preventative.

Expecting the average person to build a "ghost gun" their first time without critical mistakes is irrational. 

No less rational than thinking an average person has black market contacts.

Obviously different people have different skillsets, for some maybe a black market gun is easier, for others a ghost gun is easier. My whole point is that ghost guns provide an additional avenue by where someone could obtain a firearm unlawfully.

You didn't reply to me, but since we've already debated this before, I thought I'd reiterate.

If someone is convicted of a crime other than one of violence, even a felony, I think once they have completed their sentence, their rights -- ALL OF THEIR RIGHTS -- should be restored.

Armed robbery, domestic abuse, and other violent crimes may offer a path to full restoration of rights if completed, such as probation, educational classes, and the like.

I think if someone is convicted of drug possession or auto theft, taking away 2nd Amendment rights is more punitive  than preventative.

I would mostly agree here.

So do you know people in the black market, you have a source for getting a black market gun if you wanted? Personally I don't so a P80 would be just that much easier.

I have seen some P80 assembly videos, it really isn't that complicated. And heck, if I wanted to sell them on the black market I could churn them out much safer than buying/stealing stolen firearms and reselling them.

I have never inquired to buy a gun illegally, so no I do not have a source.  Also I have never purchased or inquired to purchase a P80 either. So same same.  Like I stated, it cost HPD $800 to make 1 gun (testimony given by Major Nielson). Now assume they would sell it for a profit to criminals, the mark up would definitely be for sale about $1500.  Because if someone is making and then selling guns illegally, a $100 mark up isn't worth the risk. Then add in the time you need to spend on each gun and initial start up for tools needed.  Which you may already own, but let's assume you don't.  Would a criminal spend $1500 on a P80 knowig they will have to toss it in the bushes if being chased by HPD, or spend $400 (higher than $200), 

Lets assume a criminal would make a P80 instead of buying one already made, at minimum about $800, plus time and effort/labor. So would they do that or buy one for $400 and can just toss it if being chased.

Again, you are thinking like a law abiding citizen who is trying to maintain a clean record.  Think like an illegal arms dealer who doesn't care, but wants to make a quick and easy buck.

No less rational than thinking an average person has black market contacts.

Obviously different people have different skillsets, for some maybe a black market gun is easier, for others a ghost gun is easier. My whole point is that ghost guns provide an additional avenue by where someone could obtain a firearm unlawfully.

When you say ghost guns, do you mean P80s and like guns or guns with the serial numbers altered/removed?  Because our state defines both alike. So when the news says "ghost gun", unless they specify, it's unknown if its 1 or the other.  The HI guy serving 3 years for ammo possession as a felon in 2017 just sentenced had a "ghost gun". But yet he was only charged for ammo possession and not firearm possession/ghost gun, which carries a 5 year per gun.

I have never inquired to buy a gun illegally, so no I do not have a source.  Also I have never purchased or inquired to purchase a P80 either. So same same.  Like I stated, it cost HPD $800 to make 1 gun (testimony given by Major Nielson). Now assume they would sell it for a profit to criminals, the mark up would definitely be for sale about $1500.  Because if someone is making and then selling guns illegally, a $100 mark up isn't worth the risk. Then add in the time you need to spend on each gun and initial start up for tools needed.  Which you may already own, but let's assume you don't.  Would a criminal spend $1500 on a P80 knowig they will have to toss it in the bushes if being chased by HPD, or spend $400 (higher than $200), 

Lets assume a criminal would make a P80 instead of buying one already made, at minimum about $800, plus time and effort/labor. So would they do that or buy one for $400 and can just toss it if being chased.

Again, you are thinking like a law abiding citizen who is trying to maintain a clean record.  Think like an illegal arms dealer who doesn't care, but wants to make a quick and easy buck.

He only know how to think like EEF.  All of his hypotheticals are from his perspective, and the logic he uses is that of a keyboard commando.

If you read enough fiction books where the authors actually did their research, follow the studies on criminals and guns, and look at some actual documented cases of how guns were obtained, you really don't have to "know people in the black market" (racist?  ).

80% of of people who were arrested and convicted of crimes while in possession of a firearm say the obtained them from friends, family members or "associates".  Associates can be other members of their gang, members of gangs they happen to know, people who were "recommended" by their friends, etc.  Basically, the "black market" is not some stranger selling guns out of his basement or trunk of his car parked in some alley.

Criminals know the ATF and other LE agencies do stings, and if the buyer were to trust a seller on Craig's List or FB, he's taking a huge risk of getting arrested before he's even attempted to use the gun.  Instead, they look for anyone in their immediate circle that can get a gun.  Failing that, they ask those in their immediate circle if they know where they can get one.  The closer to themselves the source is, the more they can trust it's not a sting or someone who will turn them in for attempting to illegally buy a firearm.

Most people don't associate with people who regularly deal in black market guns, so they have to rely on their acquaintances to steer them to someone.

EEF is more of a DIYer.  If he can't figure out how to get a "clean" gun and avoid the proper, legal process without help, he's less likely to try finding a "source" he can trust.

At the very least, he's making a false assumption that if he doesn't already know "people in the black market," that finding someone willing and able to sell him a gun is somehow more difficult than making a working firearm you can trust to work when needed.

I think going to a shady seller has more inherent risk than producing a gun yourself if you have no one to vouch for the seller.  So, in that narrow case, EEF has a point.  But, if you stop there, you have failed to explore all your black market options.

This is a small island when it comes to people knowing each other.  I'm sure putting out the word that you're in the market will find you someone, or connect you with someone else, willing to sell an illegal gun.

Druggies, thieves and lifelong criminals aren't exactly the most reliable of customers.  If you have the cash, someone somewhere is out there waiting.

I have never inquired to buy a gun illegally, so no I do not have a source.  Also I have never purchased or inquired to purchase a P80 either. So same same.  Like I stated, it cost HPD $800 to make 1 gun (testimony given by Major Nielson). Now assume they would sell it for a profit to criminals, the mark up would definitely be for sale about $1500.  Because if someone is making and then selling guns illegally, a $100 mark up isn't worth the risk. Then add in the time you need to spend on each gun and initial start up for tools needed.  Which you may already own, but let's assume you don't.  Would a criminal spend $1500 on a P80 knowig they will have to toss it in the bushes if being chased by HPD, or spend $400 (higher than $200), 

Lets assume a criminal would make a P80 instead of buying one already made, at minimum about $800, plus time and effort/labor. So would they do that or buy one for $400 and can just toss it if being chased.

Again, you are thinking like a law abiding citizen who is trying to maintain a clean record.  Think like an illegal arms dealer who doesn't care, but wants to make a quick and easy buck.

My thinking is that of a criminal who doesn't want to get caught.

When you say ghost guns, do you mean P80s and like guns or guns with the serial numbers altered/removed?  Because our state defines both alike. So when the news says "ghost gun", unless they specify, it's unknown if its 1 or the other.  The HI guy serving 3 years for ammo possession as a felon in 2017 just sentenced had a "ghost gun". But yet he was only charged for ammo possession and not firearm possession/ghost gun, which carries a 5 year per gun.

Fair point, to me ghost gun meant guns manufactured without a serial number. I did not know the law also covered guns with removed serial numbers. (There is already a law covering removing a firearm serial number)

My thinking is that of a criminal who doesn't want to get caught.

There's no such thing as a perfect crime.  There's a risk of getting caught every single time someone breaks the law.  Sometimes it's just bad luck.

If that "criminal" really doesn't want to get caught, he would not be breaking the law, huh?

He only know how to think like EEF.  All of his hypotheticals are from his perspective, and the logic he uses is that of a keyboard commando.

If you read enough fiction books where the authors actually did their research, follow the studies on criminals and guns, and look at some actual documented cases of how guns were obtained, you really don't have to "know people in the black market" (racist?  ).

80% of of people who were arrested and convicted of crimes while in possession of a firearm say the obtained them from friends, family members or "associates".  Associates can be other members of their gang, members of gangs they happen to know, people who were "recommended" by their friends, etc.  Basically, the "black market" is not some stranger selling guns out of his basement or trunk of his car parked in some alley.

Criminals know the ATF and other LE agencies do stings, and if the buyer were to trust a seller on Craig's List or FB, he's taking a huge risk of getting arrested before he's even attempted to use the gun.  Instead, they look for anyone in their immediate circle that can get a gun.  Failing that, they ask those in their immediate circle if they know where they can get one.  The closer to themselves the source is, the more they can trust it's not a sting or someone who will turn them in for attempting to illegally buy a firearm.

Most people don't associate with people who regularly deal in black market guns, so they have to rely on their acquaintances to steer them to someone.

EEF is more of a DIYer.  If he can't figure out how to get a "clean" gun and avoid the proper, legal process without help, he's less likely to try finding a "source" he can trust.

At the very least, he's making a false assumption that if he doesn't already know "people in the black market," that finding someone willing and able to sell him a gun is somehow more difficult than making a working firearm you can trust to work when needed.

I think going to a shady seller has more inherent risk than producing a gun yourself if you have no one to vouch for the seller.  So, in that narrow case, EEF has a point.  But, if you stop there, you have failed to explore all your black market options.

This is a small island when it comes to people knowing each other.  I'm sure putting out the word that you're in the market will find you someone, or connect you with someone else, willing to sell an illegal gun.

Druggies, thieves and lifelong criminals aren't exactly the most reliable of customers.  If you have the cash, someone somewhere is out there waiting.

Hahaha, so I think like a keyboard commando but you think like a real criminal?


How many of these studies on where people sourced their firearms have been done since 3D printing, P80 parts, etc became widespread? There have been cases now where these P80 guns have been showing up in crimes.  Talking about a 10 year old study before this technology was widespread is going to have limited implications.

There's no such thing as a perfect crime.  There's a risk of getting caught every single time someone breaks the law.  Sometimes it's just bad luck.

If that "criminal" really doesn't want to get caught, he would not be breaking the law, huh?

Ok, ok.
My thinking is that of a criminal who wants to reduce their chances of getting caught. Happy now?

Fair point, to me ghost gun meant guns manufactured without a serial number. I did not know the law also covered guns with removed serial numbers. (There is already a law covering removing a firearm serial number)

The OG use of the term "ghost gun" was a removed/altered serial number. Recently, they added in P80 type builds which majority have no serial number because they are not firearms. And it's up to the owner to add a serial number.  HI's law goes 1 step further and also names intended parts that can be used to build a "ghost gun" .  So if HPD comes to your door and finds a barrel and you state it's to assemble a "ghost gun", then you are breaking HI law.

Ok, ok.
My thinking is that of a criminal who wants to reduce their chances of getting caught. Happy now?

So, now you're splitting hairs.

It's a binary decision:  break the law and risk getting caught, or obey the law and have zero risk.

Given the number of people caught with illegal guns, and deducing there are probably many more than that who haven't been caught, it's my opinion that getting caught was not high on their list of considerations.