End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World (Read 18475 times)

Kuleana

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2023, 08:47:38 PM »
Is it your belief that anyone who lives in Hawaii regardless of national affiliation (US State, Hawaiian Kingdom, etc.) can call themselves Hawaiians if they don't have Hawaiian blood ties?
The term Hawaiian is a nationality, not an ethnicity per se.  Only those aboriginal Hawaiians born on the Big Island can call themselves Hawaiians ethnically.


Every other state in the US transfers their identity to all legal residents:  Virginians, North or South Carolinians, Floridians, Texans, etc, etc.  Only in Hawaii is someone who moves here considered an outsider no matter how long they've lived here.
That is because Hawaii was/is a sovereign nation state that was illegally annexed by the US empire.



If I move to Italy, can i call myself and Italian?  How about Egypt?  Would I be an Egyptian if I moved there and changed my citizenship from US citizen to theirs?
Yes; if you relinquished your American citizenship and became a citizen of Russia, you would not by an ethnic Russian Slav, but a Russian national.

In contrast, in China, you have many ethnicities in addition to the majority Han and, in every case, all of the people who are born there are nevertheless typically called Chinese.



If you think an independent Hawaiian nation is not racial, you're not paying attention.
It is you who chooses not to learn the history of the Hawaiian nation state that was illegally overthrown and later illegally annexed by the US empire.  The Hawaiian Kingdom was a multi-racial as well as a multi-ethnic nation.  The population consisted of aboriginal Hawaiians and non-aboriginal Hawaiians of different races and/or ethnicities.  In either case, the citizenry of the Hawaiian Kingdom were all Hawaiian nationals and did call themselves Hawaiians.

ren

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2023, 08:50:01 PM »
That was a long time ago.
Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2023, 10:04:39 PM »
[snip]

It is you who chooses not to learn the history of the Hawaiian nation state that was illegally overthrown and later illegally annexed by the US empire.  The Hawaiian Kingdom was a multi-racial as well as a multi-ethnic nation.  The population consisted of aboriginal Hawaiians and non-aboriginal Hawaiians of different races and/or ethnicities.  In either case, the citizenry of the Hawaiian Kingdom were all Hawaiian nationals and did call themselves Hawaiians.

The kingdom was multi-racial/multi-ethnic is meaningless.  That's like saying the Southern US states were multi-racial/multi-ethnic before the Civil War.

I don't need to learn HI history when you regurgitate it on this forum ad nauseam.

How does a native Hawaiian react if a White guy calls himself Hawaiian -- no matter how long he's lived here?  Would be a great man-on-the-street video survey.

Me:  "Hi, are you Hawaiian?"

Man:  "Yeah."

Me:  "So am I.  Howzit?!"

Man:  "Crazy Haole faka!"

Yeah.  Never goes well.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2023, 08:32:23 AM »
The kingdom was multi-racial/multi-ethnic is meaningless.  That's like saying the Southern US states were multi-racial/multi-ethnic before the Civil War.
How can my references to the Hawaiian Kingdom as a multiracial and multiethnic nation be meaningless?

Do you deny that the US empire is currently a multiracial and multiethnic nation state?



How does a native Hawaiian react if a White guy calls himself Hawaiian -- no matter how long he's lived here?  Would be a great man-on-the-street video survey.

Me:  "Hi, are you Hawaiian?"

Man:  "Yeah."

Me:  "So am I.  Howzit?!"

Man:  "Crazy Haole faka!"

Yeah.  Never goes well.
Once again, Hawaiian is a nationality that refers to the citizenry of the Hawaiian Kingdom and their descendants living today regardless of whether they were aboriginal Hawaiian or not.  This basis that I describe is generally understood in Hawaii as many local non-Hawaiian born residents typically do not call themselves Hawaiians.

Furthermore, I am not sure the ending reply given by a supposed Hawaiian of your hypothetical conversation listed above is also typical to all Hawaiians.  If I were the supposed Hawaiian in your hypothetical conversation, I would not resort to pidgin profanity, but politely smile, ask if they have any parental lineage to the Hawaiian Kingdom, and, if not, educate that individual as to why it is inappropriate and very insulting to refer to themselves as a Hawaiian.    :shaka:

Flapp_Jackson

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2023, 03:08:12 PM »
How can my references to the Hawaiian Kingdom as a multiracial and multiethnic nation be meaningless?

Because discrimination exists.  Having a diverse population doesn't automatically give the same rights and opportunities to everyone.  I should not have to point that out.  It's been a fact for  centuries.  The US has made great progress in protecting the rights of everyone, but it'll never be perfect as long as human beings make the rules and decisions.

Do you deny that the US empire is currently a multiracial and multiethnic nation state?


Once again, Hawaiian is a nationality that refers to the citizenry of the Hawaiian Kingdom and their descendants living today regardless of whether they were aboriginal Hawaiian or not.  This basis that I describe is generally understood in Hawaii as many local non-Hawaiian born residents typically do not call themselves Hawaiians.

Furthermore, I am not sure the ending reply given by a supposed Hawaiian of your hypothetical conversation listed above is also typical to all Hawaiians.  If I were the supposed Hawaiian in your hypothetical conversation, I would not resort to pidgin profanity, but politely smile, ask if they have any parental lineage to the Hawaiian Kingdom, and, if not, educate that individual as to why it is inappropriate and very insulting to refer to themselves as a Hawaiian.    :shaka:

Even in your explanation, you require that the person who doesn't look Hawaiian provide evidence of some degree of Hawaiian ETHNICITY/RACE.   Tell me how that's not racial discrimination?

You're excluding anyone who doesn't have the right ethnic background from ever being included as a Hawaiian citizen.   Your attitude is not any different than those who always use the term "f*king Haole" when speaking of anyone other than locals.  A White person will never be accepted as "local" no matter how long their family has been here.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2023, 05:25:20 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2023, 09:13:30 AM »
Because discrimination exists.  Having a diverse population doesn't automatically give the same rights and opportunities to everyone.  I should not have to point that out.  It's been a fact for centuries.  The US has made great progress in protecting the rights of everyone, but it'll never be perfect as long as human beings make the rules and decisions.
The Hawaiian Kingdom also did the same and actually was more progressive as it outlawed slavery where America still practiced it legally at the same time in history.  In addition, there is no evidence to suggest that the Hawaiian Kingdom was a racist nation as America clearly was in the same era even after it illegally annexed Hawaii.



Even in your explanation, you require that the person who doesn't look Hawaiian provide evidence of some degree of Hawaiian ETHNICITY/RACE.   Tell me how that's not racial discrimination?
You are taking things out of context.

Where did I reference someone's looks to determine if they are a Hawaiian national or not?



You're excluding anyone who doesn't have the right ethnic background from ever being included as a Hawaiian citizen.
Your reading comprehension needs some work.

Hawaiian nationals during the Hawaiian Kingdom were composed of both aboriginal and non-aboriginal Hawaiians.  Once restored, Hawaii will still be a multiracial and multiethnic nation state.



Your attitude is not any different than those who always use the term "f*king Haole" when speaking of anyone other than locals.  A White person will never be accepted as "local" no matter how long their family has been here.
Caucasian residents born in Hawaii have always been considered local unless they, themselves, did not want to consider themselves as so.  There have been many incidents of people of different racial and ethnic extraction that choose not to associate or practice the local culture even having been born in Hawaii.

Do you respect, appreciate, and/or practice local Hawaii culture?  If the answer is no, then it would be understandable that you would feel the way you do.  This is Hawaii.  People who choose to live here should understand that Hawaiians and locals alike are welcoming, but will not change our ways of life just to accommodate foreigners and it would be a racist presumption to think that we need to.

hvybarrels

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2023, 10:42:03 AM »
Goalposts are shifting. I'm okay with that though. It's not good to have people running around there with flawed reality models, so any adjustment towards rationality is a positive move.

The fact is sovereignty activists aren't well organized, and if they did manage to bring something workable together it would be instantly infiltrated by domestic and foreign intelligence agencies.

There are ways to organize people that don't draw so much attention from deep states, and given the right conditions those networks could be expanded into other roles if necessary.

I'd start with coalition building rather than pissing on someone's leg and telling them how evil they are.  :shaka:
Is an armadillo just a tactical opossum?

groveler

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2023, 11:39:10 AM »
"People who choose to live here should understand that Hawaiians and locals alike are welcoming, "
The other day
My caretaker/employee who is Portogee/Hawaiian local born and raised.
corrected me when I referred to myself as a Haole.
"you been here so long and act local, you aren't Haole".
I thought about that a bit.
Given that I'm a retired engineer, that doesn't  surf, despises Democrats, and doesn't like Republicans
and likes guns, says something.
Aloha.
 :shaka:




aieahound

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2023, 09:03:38 AM »
Once again, Hawaiian is a nationality that refers to the citizenry of the Hawaiian Kingdom and their descendants living today regardless of whether they were aboriginal Hawaiian or not.  This basis that I describe is generally understood in Hawaii as many local non-Hawaiian born residents typically do not call themselves Hawaiians.

Furthermore, I am not sure the ending reply given by a supposed Hawaiian of your hypothetical conversation listed above is also typical to all Hawaiians.  If I were the supposed Hawaiian in your hypothetical conversation, I would not resort to pidgin profanity, but politely smile, ask if they have any parental lineage to the Hawaiian Kingdom, and, if not, educate that individual as to why it is inappropriate and very insulting to refer to themselves as a Hawaiian.    :shaka:

Do you talk to Hawaiians and have any Hawaiian friends ? They know they were subjects of the Hawaii Kingdom because they’re Hawaiian.
Hawaiian Kids born on the Mainland are both Hawaiian and Texan, or whatever State. Can’t take the Hawaiian out of the Hawaiian.

Can the Punahou and Iolani, Hawaii Prep, etc. Haole, Chinese, etc. kids who have lineage to the Hawaiian Kingdom call themselves Hawaiian ? And would that be broadly socially accepted.

Does Kamehameha Schools require tracing your parental lineage back to the Hawaiian Kingdom ? And if one can, can any race can attend ?
No.
Gotta be blood Hawaiian.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: End of US Empire Unipolar Dominance and Dawn of the New Multipolar World
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2023, 08:39:42 PM »
"People who choose to live here should understand that Hawaiians and locals alike are welcoming, "
The other day
My caretaker/employee who is Portogee/Hawaiian local born and raised.
corrected me when I referred to myself as a Haole.
"you been here so long and act local, you aren't Haole".
I thought about that a bit.
Given that I'm a retired engineer, that doesn't  surf, despises Democrats, and doesn't like Republicans
and likes guns, says something.
Aloha.
 :shaka:

There's a difference between Culture/social norms (your point0 and national identity (the main point here).

it doesn't matter how accepting locals are if the rules for free quality education or being elected to office requires a racial background that meets with some arbitrary standard.

Differentiating between a "Hawaiian" and a "Hawaiian National" means there is going to be racial discrimination -- socially, culturally and politically.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2023, 09:06:15 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Do you talk to Hawaiians and have any Hawaiian friends?
Is that even a question?



Can the Punahou and Iolani, Hawaii Prep, etc. Haole, Chinese, etc. kids who have lineage to the Hawaiian Kingdom call themselves Hawaiian ?  And would that be broadly socially accepted.
If they can trace their parentage to a legal citizen of the Hawaiian Kingdom regardless of whether Kanaka Maoli or not, they can call themselves Hawaiian nationals legally.



Does Kamehameha Schools require tracing your parental lineage back to the Hawaiian Kingdom? And if one can, can any race can attend ?
No.
Gotta be blood Hawaiian.
KS is a private organization, and they are free to practice whatever they want.

What KS does have no bearing on the equal rights afforded to every legal citizen of a de-occupied Hawaiian nation state.

Kuleana

There's a difference between Culture/social norms (your point0 and national identity (the main point here).

it doesn't matter how accepting locals are if the rules for free quality education or being elected to office requires a racial background that meets with some arbitrary standard.

Differentiating between a "Hawaiian" and a "Hawaiian National" means there is going to be racial discrimination -- socially, culturally and politically.
If you are referring to the current policies of Kamehameha Schools, a private organization, or the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, the guard dog puppet organization to placate Hawaiian nationals to base your contentions, they do not apply as they do not represent the civil rights afforded to all legal citizens of a de-occupied Hawaiian nation state.

I say again; any person that can trace their parentage to a legal citizen of the Hawaiian Kingdom would de facto be regarded as a Hawaiian national regardless of race or ethnicity.

Kuleana

The collapse of the US empire is moving faster than I thought it would that the Power Okole themselves are taking actions of the truly absurd.

While Russia is still providing natural resources to the rest of the World, the US empire blows up pipelines and enacts more sanctions to cripple theirs and their vassals' economies to be sure they don't jump ship to BRICS.

While China just cemented their commitment to a peaceful rise as a global economic power with beginning the peace process between the Sunni (Saudi Arabia) and Shia (Iran) nations of the Middle East potentially ending their 1,500 years of religious animosity, the US empire is still trying to stir up conflict with Iran and preparing their vassal states in Asia for a proxy war with China.

All these insane moves taken, while the US imperial financial system on the verse of collapse due to the recent death of the Petro Dollar with Saudi Arabia now allowing the sale of their oil in other nations' currencies.

The multipolar World has just officially given birth.  At this stage, the US empire should willingly begin releasing control of their vassal states and illegally occupied territories to save what's left of their own nation state or suffer imminent financial collapse and violent Balkanization causing much unneeded social chaos and death amongst the soon-to-be penniless and impoverished populace.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2023, 09:58:51 AM by Kuleana »

macsak

The collapse of the US empire is moving faster than I thought it would that the Power Okole themselves are taking actions of the truly absurd.

While Russia is still providing natural resources to the rest of the World, the US empire blows up pipelines and enacts more sanctions to cripple theirs and their vassals' economies to be sure they don't jump ship to BRICS.

While China just cemented their commitment to a peaceful rise as a global economic power with beginning the peace process between the Sunni (Saudi Arabia) and Shia (Iran) nations of the Middle East potentially ending their 1,700 years of religious animosity, the US empire is still trying to stir up conflict with Iran and preparing their vassal states in Asia for a proxy war with China.

All these insane moves taken, while the US imperial financial system on the verse of collapse due to the recent death of the Petro Dollar with Saudi Arabia now allowing the sale of their oil in other nations' currencies.

The multipolar World has just officially given birth.  At this stage, the US empire should willingly begin releasing control of their vassal states and illegally occupied territories to save what's left of their own nation state or suffer imminent financial collapse and violent Balkanization causing much unneeded social chaos and death amongst the soon-to-be penniless and impoverished populace.

QUIETShooter

I worked hard all my life for whatever money I have.  Now there is a chance I might lose it.

And I didn't vote for any of these people running the country.

MAGA.

And it starts by cleaning our own yard, not somebody else's.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

Kuleana

MAGA.

And it starts by cleaning our own yard, not somebody else's.
It also starts with downsizing America's military establishment to that of coastal defense.

The US empire can no longer afford its global power projection and the hundreds of military garrisons all over the planet that would make what Rome, the Mongols, etc. did look like peanuts.  Even Rome had the common sense to withdraw from Germania, Britania, Northern Africa, etc. when it was no longer financially tenable to do so.  But then again, Rome never had the runaway national debt like America does, which make its own upcoming nation state collapse even more devastating.

groveler

It also starts with downsizing America's military establishment to that of coastal defense.

The US empire can no longer afford its global power projection and the hundreds of military garrisons all over the planet that would make what Rome, the Mongols, etc. did look like peanuts.  Even Rome had the common sense to withdraw from Germania, Britania, Northern Africa, etc. when it was no longer financially tenable to do so.  But then again, Rome never had the runaway national debt like America does, which make its own upcoming nation state collapse even more devastating.
I agree with you to some extent, but I have a question for you,
would you rather fight a war on Oahu or in Taiwan. Japan, or Korea?
 :popcorn:

ren

I agree with you to some extent, but I have a question for you,
would you rather fight a war on Oahu or in Taiwan. Japan, or Korea?
 :popcorn:

the Hawaiian Kingdom has no Navy. No power projection capability
Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

If you are referring to the current policies of Kamehameha Schools, a private organization, or the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, the guard dog puppet organization to placate Hawaiian nationals to base your contentions, they do not apply as they do not represent the civil rights afforded to all legal citizens of a de-occupied Hawaiian nation state.

I say again; any person that can trace their parentage to a legal citizen of the Hawaiian Kingdom would de facto be regarded as a Hawaiian national regardless of race or ethnicity.

I guess slavery is fine as long as it's done by a privately owned trust?

Any discriminatory practice based on race is illegal and immoral -- especially for, but not exclusive to, a government.

Look at the mess it causes.  San Fran idiots just voted a $5M reparation payment to any and all SF residents who claim African American ancestry or who identify as African-American.

Never mind that the amount would be more than the annual budget for the city, neither San Fran nor the state of CA had any legalized slavery, nor were there ever any actual slaves in the city -- unless you count the Chinese working on laying railroad track.  This race, however, doesn't get any money.  Their rationale regarding the "never had slaves" factor is that, since slavery was abolished, Blacks were mistreated by government in terms of education, job opportunities, the justice system, etc.  I guess only Blacks ever experienced these problems, huh?  Not the Chinese, Vietnamese, Hispanics field workers, or even Whites like the Irish or German immigrants?

With almost non-existent records, people relocating for generations, mixed-race bloodlines, and no logical formula for any reasonable amount of money to pay, along with the ability to simply "claim" whatever gender or racial identity you like nowadays, ANY form of racial discrimination regardless of intent is horribly wrong and misguided.

Native Americans have a unique claim for reparations and status -- they, or at least one parent, grandparent or great-grandparent, must have been a member of a Native-American tribe.  Too bad for Faux-ca-hontus.  The only way to truly prove Hawaiian ancestry is through similar familial ties.  DNA testing wouldn't work, because the Hawaiian people must have originated somewhere else.  People don't just appear on isolated islands without traveling from somewhere else.

You'd have better luck trying to establish a Hawaiian religion, with membership available to Native Hawaiian prodigy AND ANYONE WISHING TO CONVErT, similar to the Jewish people.  They are are race AND a religion.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

ren

I say again; any person that can trace their parentage to a legal citizen of the Hawaiian Kingdom would de facto be regarded as a Hawaiian national regardless of race or ethnicity.

Under what authority? Those are your words.
Deeds Not Words