Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy (Read 21157 times)

aletheuo137

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2022, 11:54:28 AM »
So 93% of a swwoooooooossh?  :rofl:
But but but, the other 7%?

Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2022, 11:59:55 AM »
But but but, the other 7%?

That would be called a "Not Necessarily a SWOOOOOSH!"
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2022, 10:38:58 PM »
1 side is more often right than the other. This might be a swwooooooooss...haven't decided yet.

Thats what liberals probably say too. Everyone thinks their side is the more rational side, the more correct side, the more moral side.

If you want to pick and choose sure, on certain issues republicans are more correct but on others they are more wrong. My statement was a general one, when you look at democrats and republicans both rely on emotion about the same. I thought you were making a general statement so I responded accordingly. However if you are saying that democrats are more emotional about some specific issue then I may agree.

changemyoil66

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2022, 10:43:58 PM »
Thats what liberals probably say too. Everyone thinks their side is the more rational side, the more correct side, the more moral side.

If you want to pick and choose sure, on certain issues republicans are more correct but on others they are more wrong. My statement was a general one, when you look at democrats and republicans both rely on emotion about the same. I thought you were making a general statement so I responded accordingly. However if you are saying that democrats are more emotional about some specific issue then I may agree.
Liberals dont know what "rational" means. Which is why their arguements are based on emotion.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

ren

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2022, 10:45:44 PM »
Liberals dont know what "rational" means. Which is why their arguements are based on emotion.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

some people have too much of it

making 1911 grips does not equate to a 1911 gunsmith
John has a Long Mustache

Deeds Not Words

eyeeatingfish

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2022, 11:21:30 PM »
Liberals dont know what "rational" means. Which is why their arguements are based on emotion.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

I am reading a book by Johnathan Haidt where he points out something interesting. Democrats have a strong value of "fairness" and for a while he thought republicans didn't have this value but then he realized they did, it just manifested itself differently. Democrats thought of fairness in terms of equality, sharing, etc whereas to republicans fairness was seen through a different angle, something more akin to proportionality. For republicans fairness was things like getting to keep money they worked hard for. Both sides valued fairness but they interpreted it differently.

The same is true about rationality, they possess it the same as us but look at it a different way. Sure, I do think they are generally too emotional but I notice this among conservatives too, just in different ways. For example when a conservative gets angry (emotion) at seeing a liberal step on a flag. We are very good at finding faults in others but quite poor at recognizing them in ourselves.

aletheuo137

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2022, 09:18:52 AM »
 

Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk

hvybarrels

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2022, 10:41:48 AM »
I am reading a book by Johnathan Haidt where he points out something interesting. Democrats have a strong value of "fairness" and for a while he thought republicans didn't have this value but then he realized they did, it just manifested itself differently. Democrats thought of fairness in terms of equality, sharing, etc whereas to republicans fairness was seen through a different angle, something more akin to proportionality. For republicans fairness was things like getting to keep money they worked hard for. Both sides valued fairness but they interpreted it differently.

The same is true about rationality, they possess it the same as us but look at it a different way. Sure, I do think they are generally too emotional but I notice this among conservatives too, just in different ways. For example when a conservative gets angry (emotion) at seeing a liberal step on a flag. We are very good at finding faults in others but quite poor at recognizing them in ourselves.

Liberals are obsessed with power, more specifically power that they don't deserve and have no right to. In order to overcome this perceived "unfairness" they invent this self image of someone who stands up for truth and justice in order to justify their immoral and illegal acts. They are the Good People, therefore the ends of having the Good People in charge justify whatever means are necessary.

Conservatives mostly want to be left alone, therefore they stick with proven principles like personal autonomy and responsibility.
Pretending to be offended does not make you a good person.

hvybarrels

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2022, 10:48:43 AM »
Everyone thinks their side is the more rational side...

A significant portion of our society that has gone totally insane. It's not hyperbole.

They are literally killing themselves and their children to prove their loyalty to state propaganda so obviously false that it would make the Soviet Union blush.

Pretending to be offended does not make you a good person.

ren

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2022, 11:21:42 AM »
A liberal learned how to change a tire on a Honda and now they/them think they/them is an ASE, Sec+, CISSP, JDM certified mechanic.
Deeds Not Words

eyeeatingfish

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2022, 10:27:11 PM »
A significant portion of our society that has gone totally insane. It's not hyperbole.

They are literally killing themselves and their children to prove their loyalty to state propaganda so obviously false that it would make the Soviet Union blush.



Killing themselves and their children? What are you referencing? I know you posted something but the link doesn't seem to work.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2022, 10:28:52 PM »
Liberals are obsessed with power, more specifically power that they don't deserve and have no right to. In order to overcome this perceived "unfairness" they invent this self image of someone who stands up for truth and justice in order to justify their immoral and illegal acts. They are the Good People, therefore the ends of having the Good People in charge justify whatever means are necessary.

Conservatives mostly want to be left alone, therefore they stick with proven principles like personal autonomy and responsibility.

I wouldn't paint with such wide brushes

changemyoil66

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2022, 09:26:25 AM »

The same is true about rationality, they possess it the same as us but look at it a different way. Sure, I do think they are generally too emotional but I notice this among conservatives too, just in different ways. For example when a conservative gets angry (emotion) at seeing a liberal step on a flag. We are very good at finding faults in others but quite poor at recognizing them in ourselves.

Lets play with your example.  They can get upset, but do they get the national attention and media air time to push laws to ban this?  Like how liberals get anti gun, illegal immigrant, Trump impeachment, etc..air time?

What are nation wide talking points that the left gets huge slots of air/newspaper time. Gun control, based on made up stats and emotion. Trump is bad, based on made up stuff and emotion. Illegal immigration, based on emotion. These are all the things that are on the fake news daily with huge air slots.

So your example is not a good one. And once again, playing both sides of the field.

passivekinetic

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2022, 07:17:16 PM »
I am reading a book by Johnathan Haidt where he points out something interesting. Democrats have a strong value of "fairness" and for a while he thought republicans didn't have this value but then he realized they did, it just manifested itself differently. Democrats thought of fairness in terms of equality, sharing, etc whereas to republicans fairness was seen through a different angle, something more akin to proportionality. For republicans fairness was things like getting to keep money they worked hard for. Both sides valued fairness but they interpreted it differently.

The same is true about rationality, they possess it the same as us but look at it a different way. Sure, I do think they are generally too emotional but I notice this among conservatives too, just in different ways. For example when a conservative gets angry (emotion) at seeing a liberal step on a flag. We are very good at finding faults in others but quite poor at recognizing them in ourselves.

Conservatives (conserving fundamental human rights and principles) feel that fairness applies to everyone, so freedom of speech applies to even people they don't agree with. Thus, the diversity of opinions on this 2A discussion forum.

Liberals (who are liberal with definitions, morality, ethics. science and changing the goal posts) do not offer the same respect or fairness to everyone and freedom of speech only applies to those they do not disagree with. Conservatives who post differing opinions on liberal-controlled software, websites, video channels, etc. are censored, and their opinions and ideas deleted.

Conservatives feel that everyone has the right to equal opportunity, regardless of race, gender, etc. but if you fail the test, then you failed the test. You can try again and again, however, if you want to work hard to pass it.

Liberals use equality of outcome (e.g., someone who works hard and someone who is lazy, should earn the same amount of money at the end of the month) instead of equality of opportunity. Everyone should pass the test (except for people they don't like).

Conservatives rely on logic, rationality, human compassion, and science to make decisions.

Liberals rely and feed on emotions to influence and reinforce each other's often irrational decisions and actions, and liberally redefine logic and science and ethics to fit the narrative they want.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2022, 07:28:51 PM »
Conservatives (conserving fundamental human rights and principles) feel that fairness applies to everyone, so freedom of speech applies to even people they don't agree with. Thus, the diversity of opinions on this 2A discussion forum.

Liberals (who are liberal with definitions, morality, ethics. science and changing the goal posts) do not offer the same respect or fairness to everyone and freedom of speech only applies to those they do not disagree with. Conservatives who post differing opinions on liberal-controlled software, websites, video channels, etc. are censored, and their opinions and ideas deleted.

Conservatives feel that everyone has the right to equal opportunity, regardless of race, gender, etc. but if you fail the test, then you failed the test. You can try again and again, however, if you want to work hard to pass it.

Liberals use equality of outcome (e.g., someone who works hard and someone who is lazy, should earn the same amount of money at the end of the month) instead of equality of opportunity. Everyone should pass the test (except for people they don't like).

Perfect example.  I remember watching a video (which Google is not allowing me to find tonight) where a guy interviewed DNC convention goers in NC, 2017 -- Obama's first nomination.

Every single person, when asked if the Democrat Party is the party of tolerance and inclusion, said, "Oh, yes! We accept EVERYBODY.  Straight, gay, white black, Christian, Muslim, ... we are the party of tolerance."

When asked how they felt about Republicans, they were not as "tolerant" until the interviewer pointed out how intolerant their hatred of conservatives sounded.

Some people can't get past their biases and see how hypocritical they really are.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

groveler

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2022, 08:19:53 PM »
I am reading a book by Johnathan Haidt where he points out something interesting. Democrats have a strong value of "fairness" and for a while he thought republicans didn't have this value but then he realized they did, it just manifested itself differently. Democrats thought of fairness in terms of equality, sharing, etc whereas to republicans fairness was seen through a different angle, something more akin to proportionality. For republicans fairness was things like getting to keep money they worked hard for. Both sides valued fairness but they interpreted it differently.

The same is true about rationality, they possess it the same as us but look at it a different way. Sure, I do think they are generally too emotional but I notice this among conservatives too, just in different ways. For example when a conservative gets angry (emotion) at seeing a liberal step on a flag. We are very good at finding faults in others but quite poor at recognizing them in ourselves.
Interesting, I'm a pretty gung ho American.  I served my country Vietnam era over 5 years
I could care less if you step on or burn a flag.
That piece of cloth should be respected and has meaning, but
it is just a piece of cloth.
I despise Progressives and liberals. not because they offend me, but because
they deprive me of my rights and my families rights.
You can fuk each other all day long in the men's room as you wish, just don't mess with me  or
my kids when we want to go pee.
I don't like you, but legally, I have to tolerate you.
You'd best not try to tell me you are normal,
because you are not.
If you were normal you would not need "special" handling.
Natures way. survival of the fittest.
Progressives would not exist if it were not for
Western tolerance and philosophy.
 :wave:



passivekinetic

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2022, 08:51:39 PM »
Progressive means progressing toward communism.

Don't let their tricky use of language slide. Call em on it and seize upon the language as well.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

eyeeatingfish

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2022, 09:59:51 PM »
Lets play with your example.  They can get upset, but do they get the national attention and media air time to push laws to ban this?  Like how liberals get anti gun, illegal immigrant, Trump impeachment, etc..air time?

What are nation wide talking points that the left gets huge slots of air/newspaper time. Gun control, based on made up stats and emotion. Trump is bad, based on made up stuff and emotion. Illegal immigration, based on emotion. These are all the things that are on the fake news daily with huge air slots.

So your example is not a good one. And once again, playing both sides of the field.

And you don't think any of our positions are based on emotion?
How about fear we are going to lose our rights?
Fear of not being able to protect ourselves from threats?

changemyoil66

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2022, 10:19:51 PM »
And you don't think any of our positions are based on emotion?
How about fear we are going to lose our rights?
Fear of not being able to protect ourselves from threats?
Can i own a SBR.
Can i own a supressor
Can i own a >10rd pistol mag
Can i own a shockwave
Does my right apply  past my door step
Can i use lawful self defense and not get sued by bad guy or his family

See how logic is applied and not emotion. FYI the answer to all of the above is NO.



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

eyeeatingfish

Re: Trump and supporters are clear and present danger to democracy
« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2022, 10:27:49 PM »
Conservatives (conserving fundamental human rights and principles) feel that fairness applies to everyone, so freedom of speech applies to even people they don't agree with. Thus, the diversity of opinions on this 2A discussion forum.

Liberals (who are liberal with definitions, morality, ethics. science and changing the goal posts) do not offer the same respect or fairness to everyone and freedom of speech only applies to those they do not disagree with. Conservatives who post differing opinions on liberal-controlled software, websites, video channels, etc. are censored, and their opinions and ideas deleted.

Conservatives feel that everyone has the right to equal opportunity, regardless of race, gender, etc. but if you fail the test, then you failed the test. You can try again and again, however, if you want to work hard to pass it.

Liberals use equality of outcome (e.g., someone who works hard and someone who is lazy, should earn the same amount of money at the end of the month) instead of equality of opportunity. Everyone should pass the test (except for people they don't like).

Conservatives rely on logic, rationality, human compassion, and science to make decisions.

Liberals rely and feed on emotions to influence and reinforce each other's often irrational decisions and actions, and liberally redefine logic and science and ethics to fit the narrative they want.

Rhaydar may beg to differ about diversity of opinions here hehe.

Liberals tend to look at fairness more on a group level. So seeing that people are treated equally, equal opportunities, not being bullied, etc. Some look at equality of outcome but I think a lot look for equal opportunity (Not the same thing) These aren't right or wrong ways of looking at fairness per se, just different from how conservatives look at fairness.

As for freedom of speech, there are deffinitely liberals who will walk all over the 1st amendment but I would contend that there is still a solid chunk of liberals who are strong believers in the 1st amendment. The ones that are trashing free speech are absolutely a threat to society but we should differentiate between them and other liberals.

As a conservative I would love to prove that we rely more on logic, science, and rationality but sadly we don't. Maybe we do it a little more than liberals but we still fall prey to the elephant going where it wants. There are multiple studies that prove this mentioned in the book, I could dig some up if you are interested. I see times when conservatives ignore science, not consciously, but it happens when the elephant pulls away due to loyalty or some other foundation. We still rely on emotions, they just are within a different framework than that of liberals. Case in point, look how angry some people get when they see their flag being burned or when someone defiles a war memorial. There are all sorts of exceptions on both sides but I am not going to go down that list.

Johnathan Haidt sets out 6 social/moral foundations.
1. Fairness/cheating -
2. Harm/Justice
3. Authority
4. Loyalty
5. Purity
6. Liberty

Across multiple cultures Liberals score high on valuing Fairness/Harm and Harm/Justice and quite low on the other on the other moral foundations. Conservatives on the other hand test lower for Fairness and Justice but overall they are much more balanced among the moral values. So liberals are more likely to want to reduce harm (stop bullying, protect animal rights, more pollution regulation) and reduce unfairness (close wage gap, socialized medicine, affirmative action) but they are less concerned with authority, purity, loyalty, etc. It is not that they are more irrational per se than conservatives but they are rational within the moral frameworks they have. So along comes a mass shooter and having a stronger desire to reduce harm they push harder to try and stop it.

The problem with liberals defining conservatives and conservatives defining liberals is neither side does a very good job at accurately doing so.