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Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona (Read 18950 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2023, 11:14:25 AM »
Quote from: groveler on April 08, 2023, 08:36:29 AM
I wasn't a ground pounder.
but I was issued an M16. though it was locked up in the armory
or bugout Cabana,
My instructions were simple, complete your mission!
It was at my discretion how to do it
and not violate the UCMJ rules.
 :popcorn:

The way I look at it, war is chaos.  We lose a good percentage of infantry to friendly fire in each conflict. 

It's unusual for the ones firing to be tried for a crime unless there's evidence the death was intentional.

Courage Under Fire was a good movie.  Shows how messed up things can get when every decision could mean you and your team don't make it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115956/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_33_act

Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

RSN172

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2023, 01:31:16 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on April 08, 2023, 11:14:25 AM
The way I look at it, war is chaos.  We lose a good percentage of infantry to friendly fire in each conflict. 

It's unusual for the ones firing to be tried for a crime unless there's evidence the death was intentional.

Courage Under Fire was a good movie.  Shows how messed up things can get when every decision could mean you and your team don't make it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115956/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_33_act

Hey Flapp,

Can you please stop making me waste my time by recommending and making me watch all these good movies that I heard about but never took the time to watch before.
Thanks, Friendo
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Happily living in Puna

eyeeatingfish

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2023, 03:37:34 PM »
Quote from: Sodie on April 06, 2023, 08:26:41 PM
Depends on the ROE and rules for the use of force (RUF).  Given the fact that you could shoot a missile from a helicopter at somebody if it looked like they were burying an IED, I think it was probably OK to shoot an armed insurgent in the back.

We blew the crap out of Iraqi armor as they were retreating (they weren't surrendering) so I think Rhaydar has no idea what he is talking about

Good point about the ROE though because that certainly would play a role
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2023, 04:59:16 PM »
Quote from: RSN172 on April 08, 2023, 01:31:16 PM
Hey Flapp,

Can you please stop making me waste my time by recommending and making me watch all these good movies that I heard about but never took the time to watch before.
Thanks, Friendo

That movie has a stellar cast, two overlapping plot lines, and keeps you guessing up until the end.

It's no Saving Private Ryan as far as the combat scenes go, but it's definitely thought-provoking.   :thumbsup:

Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2023, 06:26:11 PM »
Theres an ethics class 1 must take at Anapolis. 1 question was

Youre a pilot with orders to fire and destroy a convoy. What do u do as u approach and they waive a white flag?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

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eyeeatingfish

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2023, 08:18:58 PM »
Quote from: changemyoil66 on April 08, 2023, 06:26:11 PM
Theres an ethics class 1 must take at Anapolis. 1 question was

Youre a pilot with orders to fire and destroy a convoy. What do u do as u approach and they waive a white flag?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Did they give the "right" answer or was it more just to inspire thought and discussion?
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macsak

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2023, 10:17:55 PM »
it's ok to attack if they "waive" a white flag...

1. to refrain from claiming or insisting on; forgo: to waive one's rank. 2. to relinquish (a right) intentionally: to waive an option. 3. to put aside, esp. for the time; defer or dispense with: to waive formalities.

Quote from: changemyoil66 on April 08, 2023, 06:26:11 PM
Theres an ethics class 1 must take at Anapolis. 1 question was

Youre a pilot with orders to fire and destroy a convoy. What do u do as u approach and they waive a white flag?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2023, 10:23:54 PM »
Quote from: changemyoil66 on April 08, 2023, 06:26:11 PM
Theres an ethics class 1 must take at Anapolis. 1 question was

Youre a pilot with orders to fire and destroy a convoy. What do u do as u approach and they waive [sic] a white flag?

The correct answer is that the White Flag and Red Cross symbols have been codified in the Hague and Geneva Conventions.

Not only is it a war crime to not honor those symbols, but it is also a war crime to falsely use those symbols to deceive the enemy.

The realistic answer is you have to take it in context.  A white flag is useless to an enemy convoy.  Surrendering to a pilot in the air is not logical.  That leaves the possibility that the convoy is friendly, and the flag is being used to prevent misidentification.

In modern warfare, communications methods are more sophisticated.  If the convoy is part of your force, they should have the means to relay their identity and position to the pilot without relying on a white flag.

One of the things that seems to always be a problem is inter-service communications.  The Marines seem to have this attitude that they need to be early when executing joint maneuvers.  It's some sort of OPSEC mindset.  If the enemy gets hold of the plan, changing their arrival times keeps everyone guessing  It's not uncommon for the Marines to arrive an hour or more at their anticipated location ahead of when planned.  That means the other services quite often mistake forward Marine units for the enemy since they should not yet be there.

These kinds of problems are magnified when allied forces are coordinating the execution of a plan.

Do some reading on friendly fire incidents.  Best laid plans ...
Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

groveler

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2023, 11:15:05 PM »
Quote from: RSN172 on April 08, 2023, 01:31:16 PM
Hey Flapp,

Can you please stop making me waste my time by recommending and making me watch all these good movies that I heard about but never took the time to watch before.
Thanks, Friendo
Y'all know you can a train a twelve year old kid to fly a helicopter?
or an airplane, or drive a ship.
What a military person in a position of commamd is and does, is and what they trained for, is to
make hard decisions when SHTF.
Personally, I know women don't belong in Combat. most jobs in the military
are not in combat and I'm sure the guys like some clean Pu$$y.
But glamorzing women getting killed, maimed,  and raped is not my idea
of femisism or modern military sucess.
 :grrr:




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eyeeatingfish

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2023, 10:21:02 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on April 08, 2023, 10:23:54 PM
The correct answer is that the White Flag and Red Cross symbols have been codified in the Hague and Geneva Conventions.

Not only is it a war crime to not honor those symbols, but it is also a war crime to falsely use those symbols to deceive the enemy.

The realistic answer is you have to take it in context.  A white flag is useless to an enemy convoy.  Surrendering to a pilot in the air is not logical.  That leaves the possibility that the convoy is friendly, and the flag is being used to prevent misidentification.

In modern warfare, communications methods are more sophisticated.  If the convoy is part of your force, they should have the means to relay their identity and position to the pilot without relying on a white flag.

One of the things that seems to always be a problem is inter-service communications.  The Marines seem to have this attitude that they need to be early when executing joint maneuvers.  It's some sort of OPSEC mindset.  If the enemy gets hold of the plan, changing their arrival times keeps everyone guessing  It's not uncommon for the Marines to arrive an hour or more at their anticipated location ahead of when planned.  That means the other services quite often mistake forward Marine units for the enemy since they should not yet be there.

These kinds of problems are magnified when allied forces are coordinating the execution of a plan.

Do some reading on friendly fire incidents.  Best laid plans ...

Good answer. I would think that as a pilot, one would also have the ability to communicate with his command what he was observing as well and if so should do so rather than just stick to a basic instruction
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2023, 02:18:51 AM »
Quote from: eyeeatingfish on April 09, 2023, 10:21:02 PM
Good answer. I would think that as a pilot, one would also have the ability to communicate with his command what he was observing as well and if so should do so rather than just stick to a basic instruction
i wrote a longer reply but shortened it, since we're getting way off topic.

Pilots have some discretion when it comes to identifying their targets, but they may not have the time.  By the time they ask "command', the window to hit it might have closed.  The window could be short based on target visibility, defensive measures in response to your attack, whether your mission is part of a larger coordinated objective, etc.
Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2023, 09:39:33 AM »
Since this is an ethics class, there really is no true right answer.  The instructor brought up this thought, what if every time there's a strafing run, the enemy waved a white flag. Then when the plane left, they lowered it.  No ones going to charge them for a war crime.

Of course, there would be many factors, but just take this as face value. Like don't worry about war crimes for falsifying a surrender or if there's no surrendering force acceptance in the immediate area.

1 could also ask the above, but just say fog of war and this info is not known in time.  Does a pilot follow orders or disobey?

Sorry last off topic post.

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2023, 10:37:47 AM »
Quote from: changemyoil66 on April 10, 2023, 09:39:33 AM
Since this is an ethics class, there really is no true right answer.  The instructor brought up this thought, what if every time there's a strafing run, the enemy waved a white flag. Then when the plane left, they lowered it.  No ones going to charge them for a war crime.

Of course, there would be many factors, but just take this as face value. Like don't worry about war crimes for falsifying a surrender or if there's no surrendering force acceptance in the immediate area.

1 could also ask the above, but just say fog of war and this info is not known in time.  Does a pilot follow orders or disobey?

Sorry last off topic post.

There's always a right answer to most ethics questions.  The problem is, when the decision has to be made in a split second, the decision might not be made using perfect information.  That's why we ask these questions before we need to decide.  Reviewing a decision long after the event can help prepare for the next time, but we have to rely on our own judgement in that moment.  It's why cops have qualified immunity.  If they did everything they were trained to do, then any bad results are considered unfortunate but not the cop's fault.  E.G. if you are running at a Cop yelling, "Hands up! Don't shoot!" are you really surrendering, or just trying to trick the cop before you are close enough to attack?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2023, 01:09:26 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

aieahound

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2023, 07:07:40 PM »
Flappster,
Didn’t know you taught at Annapolis.
“The correct answer is….”  :rofl:

Depends on what the fawk is in the convoy.
If I locked in on a convoy that has SCUDS or whatever the new shi+ is or a convoy with mobile missile launchers, I light ‘em up.
Tanks. Light ‘em up.
I got the orders to back me up.
Bunch of humvees ? Depends if we have intel on what or who they’re carrying.
For some reason I was ordered to hit ‘em.
Just my thinking.

No idea what all these posts have to do with Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona.
Never mind I see the segue. Law is civilian rules of engagement.
Then we head off into military rules of engagement….and ethics.
De-railed.

Edit: My Bad. Looks like CMO might’ve got her back on track.  :thumbsup:
Still like my post though.   ;D
« Last Edit: April 10, 2023, 07:33:56 PM by aieahound »
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groveler

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2023, 07:22:00 PM »
lots of military guys here.
So I'll say this and they will appreciate it
"kill them all and let God sort it out"
 :thumbsup:
Doesn't work for atheiests, but I don't care about them.
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2023, 08:20:19 PM »
Quote from: groveler on April 10, 2023, 07:22:00 PM
lots of military guys here.
So I'll say this and they will appreciate it
"kill them all and let God sort it out"
 :thumbsup:
Doesn't work for atheiests, but I don't care about them.

Anyone who runs is a V.C.! Anyone who stands still... is a well-disciplined V.C.!
Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

groveler

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2023, 02:38:34 AM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on April 10, 2023, 08:20:19 PM
Anyone who runs is a V.C.! Anyone who stands still... is a well-disciplined V.C.!
I always disliked that part in the movie.
There is this thing called the UCMJ and you can't do stuff like that.
Ask Lt. Calley about the place called Mi Lai.
 :wave:
USA Democrats think our military are butchers when they are the most
professional military in the world( till Obama fuked it up).
 >:D


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RSN172

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2023, 08:28:48 AM »
My good friend's brother moved to AZ a few years ago. Bought a beautiful 50 acre property right on the Mexican border.  He loved it there and told his brother how nice it was.  So my friend goes to visit and goes out on the balcony around 0200 to.look at the night sky.  He sees about 20 people running through the property.   He tells his brother and they start watching at night.  Almost every night they see people running through the property.  He sold it soon after and moved way more inland, like about 200 miles from the border.
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Happily living in Puna

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2023, 01:07:22 PM »
Quote from: groveler on April 11, 2023, 02:38:34 AM
I always disliked that part in the movie.
There is this thing called the UCMJ and you can't do stuff like that.
Ask Lt. Calley about the place called Mi Lai.
 :wave:
USA Democrats think our military are butchers when they are the most
professional military in the world( till Obama fuked it up).
 >:D

All you need to know about the movie is that it was directed by Stanley Kubrick.   :crazy:

Full Metal Jacket was not supposed to be a documentary.  It's an antiwar film designed to capture the insanity of modern warfare.

Quote
Full Metal Jacket is about the abuse of young men, which has been going
on in the military since the start of society. These young men are turned into
killing machines

– Nathan Abrams
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20220623-full-metal-jacket-and-kubrick-the-ultimate-anti-war-films
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2023, 09:37:27 AM »
Quote from: groveler on April 11, 2023, 02:38:34 AM
I always disliked that part in the movie.
There is this thing called the UCMJ and you can't do stuff like that.
Ask Lt. Calley about the place called Mi Lai.
 :wave:
USA Democrats think our military are butchers when they are the most
professional military in the world( till Obama fuked it up).
 >:D

The few Nam vets that I did speak to about their time there never mentioned stuff like this.  But 1 guy did mention how common fragging was.

Many of them also had the saying with regard to getting disciplined for anything "what you gonna do, send me to vietnam?"
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