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Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona (Read 17645 times)

rhayder

Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« on: April 03, 2023, 09:25:23 PM »
KINO SPRINGS, Ariz. — Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea was slipping across a rancher’s land near the border with Mexico when the shooting started. “I’m hit,” he said, before his eyes rolled back and he crumpled face down by a mesquite tree.

To the sheriff in rural Santa Cruz County, Ariz., this account, relayed by a witness, and other pieces of the investigation into the shooting death of Mr. Cuen-Buitimea seemed to make the next steps clear. The sheriff’s office arrested George Alan Kelly, the rancher suspected of firing the fatal shot, and charged him with murder.

Then the angry calls started pouring in.

“This is garbage.”

“It’s a travesty of justice.”

“Since when do illegals have rights?”
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2023, 11:08:11 PM »
Quote
Mr. Cuen-Buitimea, 48, grew up in an adobe house in the impoverished farming village
of Buaysiacobe in the Mexican state of Sonora, according to his relatives and friends
there. He had crossed into the United States illegally and been deported at least three
times between 2011 and 2016, according to court records.

I guess sometimes it takes extreme measures to teach some people to stop doing what they're doing.  Until there are consequences, the flood over the US-Mexico border will only continue to worsen.

Don't start nothing, won't be nothing.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2023, 01:10:16 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on April 03, 2023, 11:08:11 PM
I guess sometimes it takes extreme measures to teach some people to stop doing what they're doing.  Until there are consequences, the flood over the US-Mexico border will only continue to worsen.

Don't start nothing, won't be nothing.

You mean, don't break the law and you reduce bad stuff that may happen to you.
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2023, 01:13:54 PM »
Quote from: changemyoil66 on April 04, 2023, 01:10:16 PM
You mean, don't break the law and you reduce bad stuff that may happen to you.

Quote
If you do not wish to suffer the consequences of your provocative actions,
do not pursue your current course of action.

Taunt implying, "you started it."
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Don%27t%20start%20nothing%2C%20won%27t%20be%20nothing
Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2023, 01:17:49 PM »
Quote from: rhayder on April 04, 2023, 01:13:29 PM
It's murder if you shoot someone that happens to be on your land. This was not self defense.  Sounds like we may need more firearms education and training in this forum.

Are you a lawyer?  Do you know and understand every castle doctrine and stand your ground law in every state?

Quote
The State of Arizona also justifies the use of lethal force to halt criminal trespass and
other attempted or in progress forcible entry of an occupied dwelling.
https://www.survivalsullivan.com/arizona-castle-doctrine-law/
Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

hvybarrels

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2023, 01:29:01 PM »
There is no border

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The problem governments are trying to solve is the existence of your freedom.

Sodie

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2023, 04:32:29 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on April 04, 2023, 01:17:49 PM
Are you a lawyer?  Do you know and understand every castle doctrine and stand your ground law in every state?
https://www.survivalsullivan.com/arizona-castle-doctrine-law/

If you read a little bit further in that blog post, it pretty clearly implies that the law applies only to an occupied dwelling, as in “criminal trespass [of an occupied dwelling] or in progress forcible entry of an occupied dwelling.”

Pretty sure you can’t just open fire on someone simply because they’re on your property, even in Arizona.  Haven’t read the actual law yet, though.
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2023, 05:03:54 PM »
Quote from: Sodie on April 04, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
If you read a little bit further in that blog post, it pretty clearly implies that the law applies only to an occupied dwelling, as in “criminal trespass [of an occupied dwelling] or in progress forcible entry of an occupied dwelling.”

Pretty sure you can’t just open fire on someone simply because they’re on your property, even in Arizona.  Haven’t read the actual law yet, though.

You missed the point.

i'm not arguing the legality of the rancher's actions.

I'm contradicting the know-it-all that made the claim:

It's murder if you shoot someone that happens to be on your land.  This was not self defense.

My point is that AZ does allow you to use lethal force to protect your property against criminal trespass.  You don't need to prove "self defense" to justify it.
Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Sodie

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2023, 05:29:29 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on April 04, 2023, 05:03:54 PM
You missed the point.

i'm not arguing the legality of the rancher's actions.

I'm contradicting the know-it-all that made the claim:

It's murder if you shoot someone that happens to be on your land.  This was not self defense.

My point is that AZ does allow you to use lethal force to protect your property against criminal trespass.  You don't need to prove "self defense" to justify it.

You may have missed my point.  I don’t believe Arizona allows you to use lethal force to protect your property (i.e., land) against criminal trespass.  I believe Arizona allows you to use lethal force to protect your occupied dwelling (i.e., your house while occupied) against criminal trespass.
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2023, 05:41:14 PM »
Quote from: Sodie on April 04, 2023, 05:29:29 PM
You may have missed my point.  I don’t believe Arizona allows you to use lethal force to protect your property (i.e., land) against criminal trespass.  I believe Arizona allows you to use lethal force to protect your occupied dwelling (i.e., your house while occupied) against criminal trespass.

Whatever.

I was saying you don't have to use "self defense" as a justification.  There are situations where you can use force that do not rise to the level of defending yourself.

Then you tell me it only counts for occupied dwellings.

That is irrelevant in the context of limiting your options to self defense.

Get it?
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2023, 05:49:45 PM »
Or just link over to the AZ Legislature for the actual law:

Quote
13-407. Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises

A. A person or his agent in lawful possession or control of premises is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force or in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of a criminal trespass by the other person in or upon the premises.

B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406.

C. In this section, "premises" means any real property and any structure, movable or immovable, permanent or temporary, adapted for both human residence and lodging whether occupied or not.

https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00407.htm

Rather than argue over the wording I provided to make my point, maybe do a little more digging on your own to make sure your point isn't flimsily tethered to the text I posted.  Accurate analytics require you start with accurate facts.  I used a piece of text from a third party which gave me what I needed.  if there's a problem with it, it's because you trusted it to be the definitive and true synopsis of the AZ law.

I used it because sometimes third party regurgitations can be easier to read than the legalese versions posted by the state legislature.

 :shaka:
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Sodie

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2023, 05:57:45 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on April 04, 2023, 05:49:45 PM
Or just link over to the AZ Legislature for the actual law:

https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00407.htm

Rather than argue over the wording I provided to make my point, maybe do a little more digging on your own to make sure your point isn't flimsily tethered to the text I posted.  Accurate analytics require you start with accurate facts.  I used a piece of text from a third party which gave me what I needed.  if there's a problem with it, it's because you trusted it to be the definitive and true synopsis of the AZ law.

I used it because sometimes third party regurgitations can be easier to read than the legalese versions posted by the state legislature.

 :shaka:

Let’s break that down…

Quote
13-407. Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises

A. A person or his agent in lawful possession or control of premises is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force or in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of a criminal trespass by the other person in or upon the premises. (Emphasis added)

So you can threaten deadly force in response to criminal trespass on one’s premises.

Quote
B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406. (Emphasis added)

So in response to a criminal trespass, you may only use deadly force in self-defense or justified defense of a third person.

I’ll look up sections 13-405 and 13-406 later… got more important things to do right now.

UPDATE: Looked up 13-405 and 13-406; pretty standard self-defense/defense of a third person statutes. Also read a little bit more about the case; guess what defense it looks like he’s going to bring….?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 06:58:44 PM by Sodie »
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aieahound

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2023, 06:41:20 PM »
He reached for his waistband. Rancher feared for his life a firearm would be produced by a trespasser acting suspiciously……..
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mrgaf

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2023, 07:15:15 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on April 04, 2023, 01:17:49 PM
Are you a lawyer?  Do you know and understand every castle doctrine and stand your ground law in every state?
https://www.survivalsullivan.com/arizona-castle-doctrine-law/

Why do you argue with that shit for brains? No matter what you say to that fuck head he never learns and would argue with a corpse! >:D
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To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2023, 08:14:46 PM »
Quote from: Sodie on April 04, 2023, 05:57:45 PM
Let’s break that down…

So you can threaten deadly force in response to criminal trespass on one’s premises.

So in response to a criminal trespass, you may only use deadly force in self-defense or justified defense of a third person.

I’ll look up sections 13-405 and 13-406 later… got more important things to do right now.

UPDATE: Looked up 13-405 and 13-406; pretty standard self-defense/defense of a third person statutes. Also read a little bit more about the case; guess what defense it looks like he’s going to bring….?

The rancher reported hearing gunshots.  If he's had armed men trespassing across his land in the past, it would be reasonable to be afraid that other groups using the same path and ignoring signs against trespassing might also be armed.

What matters is that there are situations that allow you to protect property against criminal trespass, not just against a direct threat to your life.

The statute allows for use of force that a reasonable person would use in response to the threat.  Let me know how an individual might evaluate a situation where half a dozen people or more trespassing on his property and he's all alone except for his AK-47. 

Again, not trying to argue the merits of his defense, just that you are legally allowed to use deadly force against criminal trespassers to defend your property. 

What's more important is the US gov't is being negligent allowing mass illegal immigration at the border.  They are creating the environment where people living on and near the border are constantly in fear.  They can't call the cops and expect a 5 minute response.  If they don't protect their land and their lives, who will?
Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Sodie

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2023, 09:26:00 PM »
Quote
Again, not trying to argue the merits of his defense, just that you are legally allowed to use deadly force against criminal trespassers to defend your property.

That’s not what the law says. It says you can THREATEN deadly force, or THREATEN or USE force (not deadly force) to prevent criminal trespass. You may only use deadly force in response to criminal trespass when the requirements of 13-405 or 13-406 are met, which is an imminent threat of deadly force against you or a third person. It may be different if the criminal trespass is happening in an occupied dwelling, but that’s not the case here.

If the group of people on his property had rifles, like he claimed in court papers, and they pointed a rifle at him from 80-100 yards, like he said in his court papers, then he may have a case for self-defense. The part of the law you posted does NOT allow the USE of deadly force to stop a criminal trespass on your ranch outside your dwelling unless the situation already satisfies the requirements for using deadly force in self-defense or defense of a third person.
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eyeeatingfish

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2023, 11:14:57 PM »
Quote from: rhayder on April 04, 2023, 01:13:29 PM
It's murder if you shoot someone that happens to be on your land. This was not self defense.  Sounds like we may need more firearms education and training in this forum.

You didn't post an link to the article and what little you posted doesn't contain much in the way of information so its hard for anyone here to determine whether the shooting was justified self defense or not.

It may have been self defense and maybe it wasn't. But yes, this could be avoided by not going on other people's land.
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2023, 11:28:20 PM »
Quote from: Sodie on April 04, 2023, 09:26:00 PM
That’s not what the law says. It says you can THREATEN deadly force, or THREATEN or USE force (not deadly force) to prevent criminal trespass. You may only use deadly force in response to criminal trespass when the requirements of 13-405 or 13-406 are met, which is an imminent threat of deadly force against you or a third person. It may be different if the criminal trespass is happening in an occupied dwelling, but that’s not the case here.

If the group of people on his property had rifles, like he claimed in court papers, and they pointed a rifle at him from 80-100 yards, like he said in his court papers, then he may have a case for self-defense. The part of the law you posted does NOT allow the USE of deadly force to stop a criminal trespass on your ranch outside your dwelling unless the situation already satisfies the requirements for using deadly force in self-defense or defense of a third person.

So, in a statute that says you can protect your property, you think the subsections that say you can only do so if your life is in danger negate that subsection?  Then why have the part about criminal trespass and protecting your premises at all if the same rules apply regardless of the location?

Imagine you're in a wheelchair and a guy runs up to take your backpack (let's call this your property).  The guy doesn't display a gun or other weapon, but he likely picked you because you looked like an easy target.  You draw your weapon and shoot him.  Is that justified?  He wasn't threatening your life.  He just wanted to take your property.

Is that not justifiable defense of one's property?

Not AZ, but I'm sure similar in statute:

« Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 12:25:13 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Heavies

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2023, 05:50:15 AM »
The account I heard was three men, dressed in tactical gear, carrying AK47s were spotted. They fired on the rancher and his wife.  The rancher fired back in their direction. He saw them flee.

He checked the area later and found the dead man and then called the sheriff.

Seems like self defense to me.
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groveler

Re: Rancher Charged with Murder in Arizona
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2023, 06:35:49 AM »
Quote from: Heavies on April 05, 2023, 05:50:15 AM
The account I heard was three men, dressed in tactical gear, carrying AK47s were spotted. They fired on the rancher and his wife.  The rancher fired back in their direction. He saw them flee.

He checked the area later and found the dead man and then called the sheriff.

Seems like self defense to me.
Never,  ever,  call the cops.
 :wave:
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