Batons are legal to carry now (Read 4078 times)

changemyoil66

Batons are legal to carry now
« on: May 23, 2023, 07:13:00 PM »
Yukutake et al lawsuit settled.

This incluses the collapsable ones HPD uses.

Hawaii wins are  still ZERO against HIFICO and Alan Beck.

See hifico fb page for more details.

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SonRunner

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2023, 07:22:08 PM »
Awesome!  Although I prefer a pistol, the good thing about a baton is that you can up the level of force by striking different places.  I also like that you can keep a little more distance than a knife.

Can someone please post a link to verify that batons are now legal in Hawaii?

macsak

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2023, 07:24:34 PM »
Awesome!  Although I prefer a pistol, the good thing about a baton is that you can up the level of force by striking different places.  I also like that you can keep a little more distance than a knife.

Can someone please post a link to verify that batons are now legal in Hawaii?

See hifico fb page for more details.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2023, 07:42:35 PM »
Awesome!  Although I prefer a pistol, the good thing about a baton is that you can up the level of force by striking different places.  I also like that you can keep a little more distance than a knife.

Can someone please post a link to verify that batons are now legal in Hawaii?

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.hid.160499/gov.uscourts.hid.160499.41.0.pdf
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2023, 08:29:52 PM »
HI 4got abt this and didnt change the law, stiffing the lawyers. They get paid today!

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2023, 08:39:08 PM »
HI 4got abt this and didnt change the law, stiffing the lawyers. They get paid today!

They didn't forget about it.  It was included as part of the settlement.

If HI AG wanted to stiff the lawyers (again), they would have pushed for the law to be updated before negotiating a settlement.

JMHO, but I could be wrong.  When it comes to lawyers, they are always looking to screw the other side if they can't win.

Personally, I think the AG was arrogant enough to believe they would win on the merits -- thus, they didn't even try the end-run around the attorney's fees by quick-changing the law.

 :shaka:

Quote
9. IT IS ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that JUDGMENT is entered
against Defendant ANNE E. LOPEZ, in her official capacity as Attorney General of
Hawai‘i, in the amount of a single payment in the total amount of FIFTY
THOUSAND DOLLARS ($50,000.00), for payment of attorneys’ fees and costs,
subject to necessary legislative approval, made payable to Holcomb Law, LLLC
Client Trust Account. Should any State executive or legislative entity from which
approval is necessary decline approval, this Stipulated Final Judgment and Permanent
Injunction shall be null and void and shall be set aside.

10. As consideration for this payment, Plaintiffs unconditionally release,
acquit, and discharge Defendant from all claims and causes of action arising from the
facts alleged in the instant lawsuit.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

RSN172

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2023, 09:36:03 PM »
Ultimately it comes out of our pockets,  which I don't mind in this case. What I really would want to carry legally is my Bucheimer slap stick.
Happily living in Puna

oldfart

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2023, 10:09:08 PM »
AG Anne Lopez?
WOW!
It's musical chairs in the AG's office. huh?
What, Me Worry?

changemyoil66

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2023, 08:55:12 AM »
AG Anne Lopez?
WOW!
It's musical chairs in the AG's office. huh?

IIRC Shikada was Connors replacement under Ige. She had a confirmation hearing, but then Green took over and nominated his person (lopez).  So it was a timing of the out with the old and in with the new.

changemyoil66

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2023, 09:18:47 AM »
They didn't forget about it.  It was included as part of the settlement.

If HI AG wanted to stiff the lawyers (again), they would have pushed for the law to be updated before negotiating a settlement.

JMHO, but I could be wrong.  When it comes to lawyers, they are always looking to screw the other side if they can't win.

Personally, I think the AG was arrogant enough to believe they would win on the merits -- thus, they didn't even try the end-run around the attorney's fees by quick-changing the law.

 :shaka:

I should have elaborated why I made my statement.  The AG"s defense was that Hi has never enforced it, so the lawsuit should be moot.  Even though it's still on the books as law.  But someone was arrested in 1996 for having a baton at the airport.  I don't' remember if he was prosecuted and found guilty or not charged. Since this also happened recently, the legislative session is over it's too late to change the law.  Their negotiation was held only recently. 

So with this week defense, it had me believe that the state wasn't arrogant in thinking that they could defend against the lawsuit, but forgot about it this session.  And to avoid paying atty fee's, the state could have changed the law at request of the AG's office like how they did with Tasers as that lawsuit was coming to a close and the state was going to lose.

This is just IMO based on the info that I have, and I have no proof that they forgot about it.  Like someone in the AG's office saying oops. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2023, 11:06:29 AM »
I should have elaborated why I made my statement.  The AG"s defense was that Hi has never enforced it, so the lawsuit should be moot.  Even though it's still on the books as law.  But someone was arrested in 1996 for having a baton at the airport.  I don't' remember if he was prosecuted and found guilty or not charged. Since this also happened recently, the legislative session is over it's too late to change the law.  Their negotiation was held only recently. 

So with this week defense, it had me believe that the state wasn't arrogant in thinking that they could defend against the lawsuit, but forgot about it this session.  And to avoid paying atty fee's, the state could have changed the law at request of the AG's office like how they did with Tasers as that lawsuit was coming to a close and the state was going to lose.

This is just IMO based on the info that I have, and I have no proof that they forgot about it.  Like someone in the AG's office saying oops.

Our state's lawyers are idiots.

Courts have ruled many times that, even though a law is not being enforced (policy, lack of resources, don't care), the law still exists and represents a restriction or prohibition against law-abiding citizens.  Those restrictions/prohibitions represent real injury to the public at large who might need/want to carry such self defense tools.

It's a chicken vs. egg argument.  Are they not enforcing it because nobody is breaking that law?  Or, is nobody breaking that law, because they are afraid it may be enforced?  Policy is not law, and most people don't know what enforcement policies exist.  They only see the laws and avoid breaking them -- even when the law makes no sense or causes damages or injury to themselves.  Law-abiding citizens are all about avoiding negative consequences.  The mere existence of the law impedes the public's free exercise of their liberties. 

If there is valid justification why that law isn't being enforced, then that should also justify repealing it.  Seems pretty logical.

If the legislature can't do their job and repeal laws that are being ignored by enforcement agencies, then the courts need to step in and officially ban enforcement through injunctions.  Otherwise, It's a booby trap just waiting for a DA who can't get an indictment for some larger crime to decide the suspect carrying a baton is fair game.  Unfortunately, the courts don't get involved unless someone either sues or a defendant claims unequal treatment under the law.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

hvybarrels

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2023, 11:21:03 AM »
Our state's lawyers are idiots.

They are also highly vaccinated, which makes cognitive impairment much more likely.

I'm seeing it cross over into different circles of daily life

People who were total jerks for the past couple years suddenly can't figure out how to tie their shoelaces
Is an armadillo just a tactical opossum?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2023, 11:38:43 AM »
IIRC Shikada was Connors replacement under Ige. She had a confirmation hearing, but then Green took over and nominated his person (lopez).  So it was a timing of the out with the old and in with the new.

The AG's term of office coincides with the Governor's term which ended 12/05/2022.

It might be a distinction without a difference, but Green didn't just decide to replace Shikada.  He was required to make a decision to keep/replace her.  Would he have replaced her anyway?  We'll never know.

As you mentioned, Shikada replaced Connors when she resigned to become the United States Attorney for the District of Hawaii.  Due to that vacancy, Shikada was appointed ACTING AG between 12/10/2021 and 4/19/2022.   Apparently, Ige barely got  Shikada's AG appointment confirmed by the legislature before their session ended 5/5/2022. 

Just FYI.   :geekdanc:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2023, 11:43:22 AM »
They are also highly vaccinated, which makes cognitive impairment much more likely.

I'm seeing it cross over into different circles of daily life

People who were total jerks for the past couple years suddenly can't figure out how to tie their shoelaces

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the entire government (who mandated vaccinations and boosters for employees) were to be afflicted with cognitive decline that eliminates them from office -- both elected and appointed?  Maybe the only people left able to hold office are Republicans, Conservatives, and Libertarians who opted out?
 
I can dream, can't I ??   :geekdanc:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

hvybarrels

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2023, 12:12:51 PM »
Wouldn't it be wonderful if the entire government (who mandated vaccinations and boosters for employees) were to be afflicted with cognitive decline that eliminates them from office -- both elected and appointed?  Maybe the only people left able to hold office are Republicans, Conservatives, and Libertarians who opted out?
 
I can dream, can't I ??   :geekdanc:

Could you imagine a more fitting end for people who attempted to destroy our constitutional republic just so they could cling to power a bit longer?
Is an armadillo just a tactical opossum?

changemyoil66

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2023, 12:27:37 PM »
Our state's lawyers are idiots.

Courts have ruled many times that, even though a law is not being enforced (policy, lack of resources, don't care), the law still exists and represents a restriction or prohibition against law-abiding citizens.  Those restrictions/prohibitions represent real injury to the public at large who might need/want to carry such self defense tools.



This is how dumb they are that they used that argument.  And someone like yourself who's not a lawyer knew about it.  Whats worst is the AG"s office has a "2a division" now cause they keep getting spanked.

A similar argument that is being used on the mainland is "no one shoots over 10rds in self defense, so we can keep the mag ban". Nevermind common use and like test (Heller and McDonald) that SCOTUS said has to be used. Public safety cannot be used anymore as an excuse to ban things.  John Correir is submitting expert testimony for the Abbott (mag limit) lawsuit. He's from Active Self Protection for those who don't know of him.

There is another lawsuit that is coming to an end that the state lost, but I cannot talk about it yet.  Judge already signed the order.  So bad week for the AG's office, great week for us.

On a side note, Alan Beck also has a baton lawsuit in CA that's still pending.  This is not part of HIFICO as it's in CA.

changemyoil66

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2023, 12:31:21 PM »
Wouldn't it be wonderful if the entire government (who mandated vaccinations and boosters for employees) were to be afflicted with cognitive decline that eliminates them from office -- both elected and appointed?  Maybe the only people left able to hold office are Republicans, Conservatives, and Libertarians who opted out?
 
I can dream, can't I ??   :geekdanc:

Nice dream.  Here's what's really gonna happen. They get dumber and appoint or get elected the same dumb people.

changemyoil66

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2023, 06:55:55 AM »
https://www.hecouncil.org/news/2023/06/06/main/billy-clubs-now-legal-in-hawaii/#:~:text=Employers%20need%20to%20know%20that,clubs%2C%20on%20their%20private%20property


We are seeing other org's wanting to take freedoms away from people. Like the Retail Merchants of Hawaii who doesnt want a ccw holder to stop a mall shooter in seconds, but wait for the police to arrive.

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RSN172

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2023, 07:09:16 AM »
Isn't the mall a sensitive place anyway and a licensed CCW holder is prohibited from carrying there?  So in reality, there will be no one to stop the mall shooter.
Happily living in Puna

changemyoil66

Re: Batons are legal to carry now
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2023, 09:01:17 AM »
Isn't the mall a sensitive place anyway and a licensed CCW holder is prohibited from carrying there?  So in reality, there will be no one to stop the mall shooter.
Retail org stated this in support of the bill in hearings.

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