3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting (Read 24581 times)

kaneohegrown

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2012, 03:40:39 PM »
Read earlier today, the AR that was used was stolen. Hopefully that tidbit will stop the inevitable rhetoric of "we need stricter gun laws..." or the equally famous "gun show loop holes caused this..."

DuckFat

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2012, 03:49:50 PM »
Read earlier today, the AR that was used was stolen. Hopefully that tidbit will stop the inevitable rhetoric of "we need stricter gun laws..." or the equally famous "gun show loop holes caused this..."
It's being reported that he stole the AR-15 from "someone he knew"
What if rhinos are just fat unicorns?

bass monkey

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2012, 04:27:26 PM »
If we did have CCW and something like this happened, would it be legal to shoot the guy? What would be the appropriate way to do so or what would YOU do?

Water

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2012, 05:02:07 PM »
If we did have CCW and something like this happened, would it be legal to shoot the guy? What would be the appropriate way to do so or what would YOU do?
I believe it would be legal.  You are preventing an aggressor from doing further harm.  Just make sure youre positive the gunman is the aggressor and not a CCW protecting him/herself.  Just try get the story straight in that short amount of time and react accordingly. 

ren

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2012, 05:20:03 PM »
Read earlier today, the AR that was used was stolen. Hopefully that tidbit will stop the inevitable rhetoric of "we need stricter gun laws..." or the equally famous "gun show loop holes caused this..."
Then the anti-gun argument would be: if that particular gun was banned then the criminal wouldn't have used it. The anti-gun control crowd has an infinitely deep hole of possible scenarios backed up by conjecture.
From the reaction of the shoppers no one seemed compelled to stop this coward (at least from media reports). There was no one with a CCW or open carry weapon on them?
Deeds Not Words

Bunker

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2012, 05:41:49 PM »
Then the anti-gun argument would be: if that particular gun was banned then the criminal wouldn't have used it. The anti-gun control crowd has an infinitely deep hole of possible scenarios backed up by conjecture.
From the reaction of the shoppers no one seemed compelled to stop this coward (at least from media reports). There was no one with a CCW or open carry weapon on them?

I would think even if one had a firearm considering the massive crowd and people running in panic, taking a shot unless right up on the gunman could potentially result in additional injuries to innocent people if one missed the intended target or a bystander ran in front of the target while taking a shot. The risk in my opinion would be too high unless practically next to the guy. Not sure if that is how it was but I could imagine mass panic and people running everywhere.

BananaClip

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2012, 07:21:11 PM »
That dude just simply had no friends......... :-[     

Maybe he didn't get disciplined from his parents enough.......

I got DIRTY LICKENS from my parents growing up so I'm all G...... 

I don't feel entitled like "No ones paying attention to me so lets hurt people...."

Unless he got TOO MUCH lickens from his parents....... :-\
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"- Genesis1:1 KJV

"The Truth Shall Set You Free"

"Once Blind But Now i See"

GZire

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2012, 08:14:18 PM »
If we did have CCW and something like this happened, would it be legal to shoot the guy? What would be the appropriate way to do so or what would YOU do?



Regardless of CCW or open carry the question to ask is this...........are you in fear of your life/others, fear of maiming, rape or sodomy?  If the answer is yes, then yes you would IMHO be justified.  This doesn't mean that you won't get arrested and questioned and have your firearm(s) confiscated and pay some $$$ to a lawyer to represent you, but yes IMHO it's justified.

xer 21

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2012, 11:48:41 PM »
So what they're saying is, this asshole was basically recreating that level from Call of Duty where you walk all calm and cool through an airport and mow down as many people as possible?  How about instead of banning guns, we ask ourselves how healthy it is for kids to play video games where the kid is put in a level that simulates being an active shooter with the maximum level of realism and detail?
one, no, that isnt what they're saying.  you pulled that out of nowhere.

two, dont even start that BS.  blaming video games is just as retarded as blaming guns.  there isnt a thing wrong with video games.  this has been proven time and time again, and yet here we are still grasping at straws and not placing the full blame on the shooter himself.  if it isnt rap music, its metal music, or video games, or violent movies, or a shitty childhood, or, yes, GUNS.  stop this bs, now.

42itus

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2012, 12:06:10 AM »
one, no, that isnt what they're saying.  you pulled that out of nowhere.

two, dont even start that BS.  blaming video games is just as retarded as blaming guns.  there isnt a thing wrong with video games.  this has been proven time and time again, and yet here we are still grasping at straws and not placing the full blame on the shooter himself.  if it isnt rap music, its metal music, or video games, or violent movies, or a shitty childhood, or, yes, GUNS.  stop this bs, now.

+1.  with our without video games, we're gonna have nutbags.  I let my son play MW2 and other shooting games.  He knows how to safely treat firearms.  God help me if I'm wrong, but he takes firearms very seriously and has never even joked about the abuse of firearms.  In any event, I've involved him in shooting from a young age and I'm comfortable with my choice.

xer 21

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2012, 12:35:55 AM »
i'd also like to point out, that that MW2 scene mentioned, whether you think it was the right thing to include or not, had a point, and wasnt just there for show, and asked questions of the players that few would ever have had the guts to ask.  controversial, yes, but i think it was a brilliant move, and it asked questions about the morality of what the player is participating in, and where the line gets drawn in art.  the intent isnt to allow players to murder a bunch of people, but to have them question at what point does does it get to be too much to allow the player certain freedoms, and to really think about what it is they are simulating when playing the game. 

Cougar8045

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2012, 07:58:27 AM »
one, no, that isnt what they're saying.  you pulled that out of nowhere.

two, dont even start that BS.  blaming video games is just as retarded as blaming guns.  there isnt a thing wrong with video games.  this has been proven time and time again, and yet here we are still grasping at straws and not placing the full blame on the shooter himself.  if it isnt rap music, its metal music, or video games, or violent movies, or a shitty childhood, or, yes, GUNS.  stop this bs, now.
Belay my last.  That's what I'M saying.  Do you have anything to base your statement on?  Doubtful.  Why don't you go pick up a copy of On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, and get back to me when you've learned a thing or two?
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

xer 21

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2012, 06:40:08 PM »
Belay my last.  That's what I'M saying.  Do you have anything to base your statement on?  Doubtful.  Why don't you go pick up a copy of On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, and get back to me when you've learned a thing or two?
or i could find the hundreds of studies contradicting any opinon that video games foster aggression or violence, but i dont really feel like it.  this debate is so stale it isnt even funny.

the fact is, there hasnt been any conclusive evidence one way or another in terms of video games.  there simply isnt anything there that's really solid evidence.  sopme lean one way,others lean the other.

there's a reason the media has dropped its fervor over the video game/violence link.  its because they realized it was pretty stupid a long time ago.

people just dont pick up a gun and go kill people because they played video games.  at all.  there isnt a link, regardless of what one book might say.  millions and millions of gamers do not go out and kill or hurt people because they do it in a video game. 

it should also be noted that your source of reference here is really dated.  it was first published in 1995.  i dont know if you know your video game history, but that was the SNES/Sega Genesis era.   we didnt even have 3d graphics.  that book is irrelevant.

new guy

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2012, 06:48:03 PM »
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« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 09:30:54 PM by new guy »
Your mindset is your primary weapon. - Jeff Cooper

xer 21

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2012, 07:00:49 PM »
But just cause something is really dated doesn't mean it is automatically irrelevant, right?!? For me I don't think that violent video games CAUSE people to go out and do violent acts but maybe it can desensitize a person who already has a preexisting problem?? Just a thought...
no, but it does meant that it has practically 0 insight on the effects of modern gaming on a human being.  its like using a book written in the 1940's to support a claim that violent movies in the modern era are damaging to people's mental states.  its irrelevant because it is completely ignorant of the modern situation.

games have been getting more violent and more realistic every year for decades now.  the industry is HUGE.  its overtaking Hollywood as the dominant media industry.  yet violent crime keeps dropping.  that doesnt really sound like games have any sort of appreciable affect on violence or aggression.

as per your second thought, yeah, if someone already has aggression issues, or other mental issues, video games may desensitize or aggravate the situation. sure.  but the same can be said of books, movies, music or any form of media that depicts violent situations.  video games arent special. 

to single out video games and ignore the rest of the media is just stupid.  if one has an effect, than everything does.  you cant just pick and choose.  its almost like a media version of the assault weapons ban.  aka, let's pick something that looks scary and that we dont understand, and pretend its more dangerous than other guns/media.

new guy

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2012, 07:09:00 PM »
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« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 09:30:21 PM by new guy »
Your mindset is your primary weapon. - Jeff Cooper

xer 21

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2012, 07:37:12 PM »
Whoa whoa whoa!! Not disagreeing bruddah xer21!! Just wanted to point out that throwing around words around like stupid and irrelevant can really closes off fruitful discussion. Also like you said for every "study" done there are probably an equal amount of studies done that refute the findings. My thing is don't blame outside factors... Let the actor take ultimate responsibility for his or her actions without blaming any "crutches".
if i feel defensive, its because it frustrates me to see someone who is on the side of gun rights, essentially doing to same thing the media does with guns, only with a different scapegoat.

Cougar8045

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2012, 08:40:33 PM »
no, but it does meant that it has practically 0 insight on the effects of modern gaming on a human being.  its like using a book written in the 1940's to support a claim that violent movies in the modern era are damaging to people's mental states.  its irrelevant because it is completely ignorant of the modern situation.

games have been getting more violent and more realistic every year for decades now.  the industry is HUGE.  its overtaking Hollywood as the dominant media industry.  yet violent crime keeps dropping.  that doesnt really sound like games have any sort of appreciable affect on violence or aggression.

as per your second thought, yeah, if someone already has aggression issues, or other mental issues, video games may desensitize or aggravate the situation. sure.  but the same can be said of books, movies, music or any form of media that depicts violent situations.  video games arent special. 

to single out video games and ignore the rest of the media is just stupid.  if one has an effect, than everything does.  you cant just pick and choose.  its almost like a media version of the assault weapons ban.  aka, let's pick something that looks scary and that we dont understand, and pretend its more dangerous than other guns/media.
First, the book was updated in 2009.  Hardly seems ignorant of the modern situation, does it? 

Those are exactly the type of people I was referring to, and the media in general is what Grossman credits, with special emphasis on video games.  However, if you're willing to admit that books, movies, etc, could contribute to desensitizing a person to violence, you're on the right track.  But you're wrong to say they're nothing special.  Video games are very special; they're the only form of media where YOU are the one pulling the trigger, vice reading/watching/listening to a story about someone else doing the deed. 

I reacted the same way that you did when I first read the book.  I started playing DOOM when I was about ten; my folks got me Duke Nukem 3D for Christmas when it came out, and I've been a steady consumer of every FPS that's come out since.  I love video games, and I turned out just fine.  I said, "Dave, you're a goddamn hippie."  But stop and think about it.  You have kids spending hours and hours in what amounts to a combat simulator; pretending that would have no effect whatsoever on a developing mind is pretty obtuse. 

You stated twice that video games aren't special, in the same post where you asserted that the industry is HUGE and overtaking Hollywood as the dominant media outlet.  We had gunpowder for 500 years, repeating rifles and pistols for 150 years, and kids didn't start shooting up schools until forty years ago.  Can you explain what happened?  I'm not saying that video games are entirely responsible, because nothing happens in a vacuum, but to claim no effect is stupid. 

Finally, you're drawing a false parallel between guns and video games, here.  We all know the varied and sundry benefits of firearms ownership, so I doubt we need to re-hash them here.  Aside from "they're lots of fun", and understanding that I also enjoy video games, can you state a single tangible benefit offered by violent video games?   
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

DuckFat

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2012, 10:17:14 PM »
Aside from "they're lots of fun", and understanding that I also enjoy video games, can you state a single tangible benefit offered by violent video games?   
Challenge accepted. Reaction time, hand-eye coordination, raised accuracy, etc.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070220012341.htm
I used this while arguing with my mom many years ago. I could also go into economic aspects, online socialization, and revenues donated to charities.
Can you say that there are no benefits?

As for desensitizing effects, troubled individuals do not need to be desensitized, they already are that way. Psychopaths and sociopaths don't function the way most of us do. They don't have emotions, feel no remorse, and perceive the world in a different way.
What if rhinos are just fat unicorns?

GZire

Re: 3 Dead in Oregon Mall Shooting
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2012, 09:42:56 AM »
....................You stated twice that video games aren't special, in the same post where you asserted that the industry is HUGE and overtaking Hollywood as the dominant media outlet.  We had gunpowder for 500 years, repeating rifles and pistols for 150 years, and kids didn't start shooting up schools until forty years ago.  Can you explain what happened?  I'm not saying that video games are entirely responsible, because nothing happens in a vacuum, but to claim no effect is stupid..................

Well let's see, for one the number of people going to school now.............compare that to 1940 to 1840 to 1740.  Kinda misleading about statistics.  You give me the raw data and I can present the data in a way to bolster my opinion.  Same thing goes for global warming...........yeah highest temps in recorded history...........oh noes.............but go back a couple of hundred years, thousands of years, etc and guess what you get global warming and cooling.  So the point..........beware of stats and who puts them out.

Now the shootings.......I think it's about accessibility, desensitization, and population.  Accessibility and the parent(s'), negligence in securing firearms.  Desensitization due to population growth.  You go to places with large populations and hold the door open for someone, you might be the only person.  Heck in Inglewood I held the door open for some people and got 0 acknowledgement I was there let alone a thank you.  I go to Hilo this week, 06:15AM standing in the bed of my truck and someone I don't even know tells me howzit.  I think the loss of community/commonality has a lot to do with it.  That and a lack of general parenting ability/care.