Jordan Peterson interview with a guy who almost went on a school shooting.

It starts with his broken home life all the way till his late teens, everything that set him on that path that was ultimately averted. A lot of people simply summarize active shooters as evil people but the more I learn about active shooters they really aren't always evil rather have been lead down a path of evil. The problem with quickly writing these people off as evil is that in demonizing someone you no longer need to look deeper to find out what created them and therefore you lack understanding of how to stop them.

It is almost 2 hours long and it is a heavy listen and heartbreaking but feels important to listen to in this current era of mass killings we are in. It is also available on podcast.

Wrong.

If you don't believe mass murder of unarmed students and teachers is evil, you really need to take a class or go to church more.

If something is morally bad or wrong, it is evil by definition.  Google it.

People are defined by their actions, not their intentions, justifications or rationalizations.  Unless someone is criminally insane, they KNOW what they are doing is wrong.

Someone who does evil IS EVIL. 

There is no such thing as a good person who does evil things.  If you believe that, then you have to ask which is the real character of the person -- the one who does good deeds and goes to church, or the one who rapes and murders children?

Liberals/Democrats/Socialists define people based on intentions and ignore actions or results.  Sounds like you fall into that camp, too.

Wrong.

If you don't believe mass murder of unarmed students and teachers is evil, you really need to take a class or go to church more.
If something is morally bad or wrong, it is evil by definition.  Google it.
People are defined by their actions, not their intentions, justifications or rationalizations.  Unless someone is criminally insane, they KNOW what they are doing is wrong.
Someone who does evil IS EVIL. 
There is no such thing as a good person who does evil things.  If you believe that, then you have to ask which is the real character of the person -- the one who does good deeds and goes to church, or the one who rapes and murders children?
Liberals/Democrats/Socialists define people based on intentions and ignore actions or results.  Sounds like you fall into that camp, too.

Your opinion is noted.

I never said mass murder isn't evil, please don't misrepresent what I said.

Your opinion is noted.

I never said mass murder isn't evil, please don't misrepresent what I said.

No, you said, "..the more I learn about active shooters they really aren't always evil but have been lead down a path of evil."

But what you refused to address was my statement that you can't be a good person and do evil things unless you are insane.

If you do evil, YOU ARE EVIL. 

I didn't misrepresent anything.  That's your department.

No, you said, "..the more I learn about active shooters they really aren't always evil but have been lead down a path of evil."

But what you refused to address was my statement that you can't be a good person and do evil things unless you are insane.

If you do evil, YOU ARE EVIL. 

I didn't misrepresent anything.  That's your department.

The problem with quickly writing these people off as evil is that in demonizing someone you no longer need to look deeper to find out what created them and therefore you lack understanding of how to stop them. Just saying "school shooters are evil" and moving on is a simplistic and ignorant response that justifies not having to understand or deal with the complexity of the problem.

I never said a person can be good and do evil things. I said a person can do evil without necessarily being evil.

Unless you have managed to live your life without ever sinning, you are evil by your own definition. Everyone does evil at some point in their life.
Mark 7:21-22
For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

so then why did you edit your post?

Your opinion is noted.

I never said mass murder isn't evil, please don't misrepresent what I said.

The problem with quickly writing these people off as evil is that in demonizing someone you no longer need to look deeper to find out what created them and therefore you lack understanding of how to stop them. Just saying "school shooters are evil" and moving on is a simplistic and ignorant response that justifies not having to understand or deal with the complexity of the problem.

I never said a person can be good and do evil things. I said a person can do evil without necessarily being evil.

Unless you have managed to live your life without ever sinning, you are evil by your own definition. Everyone does evil at some point in their life.
Mark 7:21-22
For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

Wow. I guess it's not possible for someone to just say "school shooters are evil" and unable to help stop the problem because they're busy or lack intelligence to help solve the problem. Many people also don't have the authoritative positions to help solve the issue. So by them just saying they're evil is about all they can do that's easy.

There is nothing wrong with writing someone off as evil quickly.  I wasn't alive when Hitler was doing his thing, but I say "Hitler was evil".  I cannot time travel back to do anything else to support that statement to deal with what his problem was. 

  Are you making the statement that "everyone does evil at some point in their life?".  Or do you just like that quote?

The problem with quickly writing these people off as evil is that in demonizing someone you no longer need to look deeper to find out what created them and therefore you lack understanding of how to stop them. Just saying "school shooters are evil" and moving on is a simplistic and ignorant response that justifies not having to understand or deal with the complexity of the problem.

I never said a person can be good and do evil things. I said a person can do evil without necessarily being evil.

Unless you have managed to live your life without ever sinning, you are evil by your own definition. Everyone does evil at some point in their life.
Mark 7:21-22
For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

Wrong.

If someone does evil but is not evil, then what are they?  Misunderstood?      Prisons are full of misunderstood evil-doers, then.

I do not do evil.  I have morals.  I didn't say I'm not a sinner, but there are degrees of sin.  Sins of the heart or mind are NOT the same as sins that translate into evil deeds.  When I've been given more change than I'm owed, I don't shove it in my pocket and quickly leave the store.  I let the cashier know.

Most people I know have a moral compass that tells them, "If it's just a little sin, then you don't need to worry about it."  I have the opposite view.  Basically, is my integrity (and soul) worth whatever that "little sin" offers?

Or as my mother used to say, "Don't ever let me hear you got caught robbing a bank for less than a couple of million dollars.  If you're going to do something wrong, it better be worth it!"  I never expect to be given an opportunity to take that much, and neither did she.  It was a way of saying "don't commit the little sins, and the chance of committing the big ones will take care of itself."

I think the line is pretty bright when comparing mass murder to other sins -- like taking $5 from your mother's wallet without permission.

Most of what you listed is in a list called The Seven Deadly Sins, which is not based on religious texts.

Do some actual research, church-going person.

As for evil, you could learn from Forrest Gump:

Evil is as evil does.

Wow. I guess it's not possible for someone to just say "school shooters are evil" and unable to help stop the problem because they're busy or lack intelligence to help solve the problem. Many people also don't have the authoritative positions to help solve the issue. So by them just saying they're evil is about all they can do that's easy.

There is nothing wrong with writing someone off as evil quickly.  I wasn't alive when Hitler was doing his thing, but I say "Hitler was evil".  I cannot time travel back to do anything else to support that statement to deal with what his problem was. 

  Are you making the statement that "everyone does evil at some point in their life?".  Or do you just like that quote?

In my experience, people who do evil things had a choice.  Nobody made anyone take up a weapon and target classmates.  Unless there is a serious mental defect at work, they know it's wrong, but they made the decision to do it anyway.

Consequences must be attached to these actions, even if afterward the shooter expresses remorse.

The guy in the interview made the choice to not commit murder.  Case in point.  There's no difference between "almost a school shooter" and "not a school shooter" -- neither acted on their impulses.

In my experience, people who do evil things had a choice.  Nobody made anyone take up a weapon and target classmates.  Unless there is a serious mental defect at work, they know it's wrong, but they made the decision to do it anyway.

Consequences must be attached to these actions, even if afterward the shooter expresses remorse.

The guy in the interview made the choice to not commit murder.  Case in point.  There's no difference between "almost a school shooter" and "not a school shooter" -- neither acted on their impulses.

I saw a vid about 1 situation where someone who pleads insanity and isn't insane vs. someone who actually is.  And it doesn't look like what the movies portray in this example.  The Madison Stone Douglas shooter was 1 example. He made "kill me now" gestures when in the interrogation room and made like he was biting his wrist but didn't draw blood (suicidal) and later used this to show he was insane. But then a vid was played by someone who really was deemed insane and the person who killed the people knew he did it, didn't deny it, but didn't see anything wrong. Not trying to justify something like taking the life of someone who's trying to take your life, but just that what he did was OK. When asked how he felt, he didn't understand the question (no remorse). 

Later the vid explained that many times the mental hospital is worst than jail, especially for someone who's faking it.

So the relevance is that the guy in the vid knew what he was doing and decided not to do it for what ever reason (I didn't watch the vid).  I'm going to assume it's because he realized it was wrong.

I saw a vid about 1 situation where someone who pleads insanity and isn't insane vs. someone who actually is.  And it doesn't look like what the movies portray in this example.  The Madison Stone Douglas shooter was 1 example. He made "kill me now" gestures when in the interrogation room and made like he was biting his wrist but didn't draw blood (suicidal) and later used this to show he was insane. But then a vid was played by someone who really was deemed insane and the person who killed the people knew he did it, didn't deny it, but didn't see anything wrong. Not trying to justify something like taking the life of someone who's trying to take your life, but just that what he did was OK. When asked how he felt, he didn't understand the question (no remorse). 

Later the vid explained that many times the mental hospital is worst than jail, especially for someone who's faking it.

So the relevance is that the guy in the vid knew what he was doing and decided not to do it for what ever reason (I didn't watch the vid).  I'm going to assume it's because he realized it was wrong.

Maybe I missed it.  Is there a parallel between the videos you saw and the reality that evil is based on actions -- not thought?

We have a screwed up judicial system that liberals corrupted into a social services branch.  While there are circumstances and forces that can guide someone to make evil decisions, there are also many, many, many avenues to choose that don't include mass murder of teens or toddlers.

Did the people in the videos ever once seek help from anyone?  Professional mental health services?  Clergy?  Friends?  Family?  Police?

Many mass shootings are suicide events, hence why there is seldom a shooter to punish.  So, if someone who doesn't die says he was suicidal, do we judge him less harshly?  How about we base it on body count?  3 is not as bad as 13, and that not as bad as 30.

I have no empathy for the shooters.  They are not just kids lashing out or screaming for help.  They chose murder as a way to get attention.  If they were not raised to understand that random killings are wrong, then I don't know that they can ever be "fixed" no matter how long they get "treated".  In fact, sending them to a mental health facility means 2 things:  They can be free as soon as they convince the facility managers they are now sane -- which is sooner than a life or death sentence -- and they will be signaling to the next mass shooter there's no real consequences to killing a dozen people. 

If most of these people were sick enough to be committed BEFORE the event, why weren't they?  Why does it take murder to bring these people into the system so they can be FORCED to get treatment and be kept away from society for our safety?

Seems like we have the cart before the horse.  You can't treat someone that's already gotten away with murder.  I don't care about anyone's opinion about the conditions compared to prison.  They should never be allowed to be free again, so treatment is basically irrelevant -- unless you intend to make them suffer more by helping them grow a conscience while they wait to die in a cell.

The TV series Signs of a Psychopath gave very good examples of these evil people, the clinical explanations of their behaviors and how to spot the signs.  A psychopath is not someone you can fix.  You can teach them to say and do the "normal" things to pass as an empathetic person, but they will always lack that empathy.  Most are narcissists who care more about how the deaths they caused affect themselves than the fact a person is dead and the family and friends have been affected.

Since it's almost impossible to fix these people, treatment at a mental health facility should be off the table.  Even if medication reduces those tendencies, too many have relapsed from not taking their meds for a number of reasons.  More often it's after a brief period following their release from institutional treatment where meds are monitored.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13530014/

so then why did you edit your post?

I typed a sentence to Flapp that I thought was worth mentioning in the original post as well so I added it to my original post.

Wow. I guess it's not possible for someone to just say "school shooters are evil" and unable to help stop the problem because they're busy or lack intelligence to help solve the problem. Many people also don't have the authoritative positions to help solve the issue. So by them just saying they're evil is about all they can do that's easy.

There is nothing wrong with writing someone off as evil quickly.  I wasn't alive when Hitler was doing his thing, but I say "Hitler was evil".  I cannot time travel back to do anything else to support that statement to deal with what his problem was. 

  Are you making the statement that "everyone does evil at some point in their life?".  Or do you just like that quote?

I am not saying that referring to the act of calling school shootings evil means someone is being lazy or ignorant. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough but what I was trying to describe is when people put it into some simple good vs evil dichotomy and think that is a good enough explanation. It is an overly simplistic explanation of the problem that hurts more than helps. If I said fat people are simply lazy, it would not accurately describe all overweight people and would do a disservice to efforts to improve their weight situations.

My statement that everyone is evil at some point in their life is trying to show flapp the fault in his logic. Flapp appears to be a Christian if I am not mistaken and Christianity teaches that all have sinned. So if doing something evil makes a person evil the he, and everyone else alive, is, by his reasoning, evil. Who has not felt at least greed, envy, or lust at some point in life, so are we all "evil"? I guess I could have more simply stated that his premise was wrong, that doing evil does not make someone inherently evil. Hitler, trying to wipe out an entire race of people, is quite a bit different than a tortured (figuratively speaking) teenager lashing out. I think there is a difference between an evil act and an evil person who does an evil act.

Listening to this man speak for almost 2 hours, I would be hard pressed to describe him as evil. His plan was evil but I don't think he is evil.

goalposts moved...

I typed a sentence to Flapp that I thought was worth mentioning in the original post as well so I added it to my original post.

The problem with quickly writing these people off as evil is that in demonizing
someone you no longer need to look deeper to find out what created them and
therefore you lack understanding of how to stop them.

First, demonizing?  Really??

Calling someone evil IS BY DEFINITION demonizing them.  You seem to think the title can't be earned.  Recognizing the truth is not a jump to judgement.

Second, it's not an either-or proposition.  Why can't you call evil "evil," and also look deeper into WHY they turned out that way? 

Third, you can't stop them in the way you mean.  The only way to stop a psychopath is early identification and isolation.  Once again, you believe human behavior can be controlled, that laws and something something will prevent crime from ever happening.

Wrong.

If someone does evil but is not evil, then what are they?  Misunderstood?      Prisons are full of misunderstood evil-doers, then.

I do not do evil.  I have morals.  I didn't say I'm not a sinner, but there are degrees of sin.  Sins of the heart or mind are NOT the same as sins that translate into evil deeds.  When I've been given more change than I'm owed, I don't shove it in my pocket and quickly leave the store.  I let the cashier know.

Most people I know have a moral compass that tells them, "If it's just a little sin, then you don't need to worry about it."  I have the opposite view.  Basically, is my integrity (and soul) worth whatever that "little sin" offers?

Or as my mother used to say, "Don't ever let me hear you got caught robbing a bank for less than a couple of million dollars.  If you're going to do something wrong, it better be worth it!"  I never expect to be given an opportunity to take that much, and neither did she.  It was a way of saying "don't commit the little sins, and the chance of committing the big ones will take care of itself."

I think the line is pretty bright when comparing mass murder to other sins -- like taking $5 from your mother's wallet without permission.

Most of what you listed is in a list called The Seven Deadly Sins, which is not based on religious texts.

Do some actual research, church-going person.

As for evil, you could learn from Forrest Gump:

Evil is as evil does.

What I listed was in the gospel of Mark...

I agree with your nuance, that there are degrees of wrongdoing. Not saying any and all evil are equivalent but neither are all people who do evil equivalent.
Was King David an evil person? He lusted after a woman, committed adultery with her, and had her husband sent off to war to die so he could have her to himself. Seems like an evil act but King David was described as God's favorite. Simply put I do not think that all people who do evil are evil. Some are, but not all.

Listen to the interview, I think you would have a hard time saying that this individual is an evil person.

goalposts moved...

If adding an additional thought, trying to elaborate on a nuanced subject, is moving the goalposts then so be it.

What I listed was in the gospel of Mark...

I agree with your nuance, that there are degrees of wrongdoing. Not saying any and all evil are equivalent but neither are all people who do evil equivalent.
Was King David an evil person? He lusted after a woman, committed adultery with her, and had her husband sent off to war to die so he could have her to himself. Seems like an evil act but King David was described as God's favorite. Simply put I do not think that all people who do evil are evil. Some are, but not all.

Listen to the interview, I think you would have a hard time saying that this individual is an evil person.

Did he commit the crimes he professes to wanting to do?

No?

Then the evil act never transpired.  So, why would you believe I'd call him evil?

Pay attention to what I'm telling you.  You might learn something.

And stop trying to turn this into a Bible lesson.  I've studied the Bible, both in Church, Scouts and College classes.  The stories are meant to illustrate specific lessons and experiences.  They are not a documentary.  Stick to more current events, please.

First, demonizing?  Really??

Calling someone evil IS BY DEFINITION demonizing them.  You seem to think the title can't be earned.  Recognizing the truth is not a jump to judgement.

Second, it's not an either-or proposition.  Why can't you call evil "evil," and also look deeper into WHY they turned out that way? 

Third, you can't stop them in the way you mean.  The only way to stop a psychopath is early identification and isolation.  Once again, you believe human behavior can be controlled, that laws and something something will prevent crime from ever happening.

You falsely assume these people are all psychopaths.

I do call evil evil. Evil acts are evil. Evil people are evil. But not all evil acts are done be evil people.

Can't stop them? This guy was stopped, not int the sense someone physically prevented him but a true friend's love (an insufficient explanation of his story) is what changed his mind. It is also what saved him from another form of suicide years later.

You falsely assume these people are all psychopaths.

I do call evil evil. Evil acts are evil. Evil people are evil. But not all evil acts are done be evil people.

Can't stop them? This guy was stopped, not int the sense someone physically prevented him but a true friend's love (an insufficient explanation of his story) is what changed his mind. It is also what saved him from another form of suicide years later.

Show me where i said all "these people" (whoever that might include) are psychopaths.  I'm focusing on the ones who decide to commit mass murder.

Show me a mass murderer, and i'll show you a psychopath.

If talking to someone stopped him, then he's not a psychopath.  Read my previous words.  If he didn't commit the murders, then i don't know why you keep trying to say I would paint him as evil.