These Trump supporters say US isn’t a democracy. And they’re okay with it (Read 13578 times)

QUIETShooter

They refuse to state that they support our democracy or the concept of any our democracy in general. Yet they claim to be patriots.

When you say "our" you must mean "your".  Meaning you along with your democrat friends.

Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

Flapp_Jackson

A republic is a form of democracy therefore it is a democracy. Being a subset of democracy doesn't mean we are no longer a democracy.

Yes, in extreme forms a democracy could create mob rule, but that is not inherent.

Bullcrap. You made that up.  Your general description does not describe the majority of republics both historically and contemporary.

A republic can be comprised totally of appointed representatives with no "democratic" process to elect them.

In the first century and a half of the US, senators were appointed by the states' legislatures.  No "democratic process" for the people to select them.

If there were no elections held for the House of Representatives or the electoral colleges electors, we would be a pure republic without any "democracy" characteristics.  State legislatures and Governors would appoint their Representatives, and the President would be selected by those same legislators via the electoral college.

Quote
A republic, based on the Latin phrase res publica ('public affair'), is a state in
which political power rests with the public through their representatives—in
contrast to a monarchy.[1][2]

Representation in a republic may or may not be freely elected by the general
citizenry.
In many historical republics, representation has been based on personal
status and the role of elections has been limited. This remains true today;
among the 159 states that use the word republic in their official names as of
2017, and other states formally constituted as republics, are states that narrowly
constrain both the right of representation and the process of election.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Bullcrap. You made that up.  Your general description does not describe the majority of republics both historically and contemporary.

A republic can be comprised totally of appointed representatives with no "democratic" process to elect them.

In the first century and a half of the US, senators were appointed by the states' legislatures.  No "democratic process" for the people to select them.

If there were no elections held for the House of Representatives or the electoral colleges electors, we would be a pure republic without any "democracy" characteristics.  State legislatures and Governors would appoint their Representatives, and the President would be selected by those same legislators via the electoral college.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

Q pointed it out, why don't you claim he is making up bullcrap too?

From the dictionary:
Republic
a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

Democracy
a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


I stated we are a constitutional democratic republic. Do you disagree with that characterization?


Q

Q pointed it out, why don't you claim he is making up bullcrap too?

From the dictionary:
Republic
a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

Democracy
a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


I stated we are a constitutional democratic republic. Do you disagree with that characterization?

The problem is you are consistently limited to what you can quickly Google, rather than reading the works directly related to the development of our government and founding of our nation.

Madison clearly dictated in the Federalist Papers the difference between a Democracy and Republic in relation to the American form of government, while at the same time explaining why our form of government is more correctly identified as a Republic with democracy influences, rather than an actual democracy. This is due to the fact that the latter cannot be successful implemented outside of small numbers/groups of citizens constrained to a localized/centralized area, where the citizenry have direct involvement in the management of state affairs. Conversely, a Republic, with it's elected representatives, facilitates the ability for a larger number of citizens to be represented by their chosen representative, without the constraints of direct involvement necessitated in a democracy-based form of government, thereby facilitating participation over a larger area.

In line with what I already stated, the fundamental difference lies not only in representation and the appointment of an executive (the latter which a democracy doesn't have), but also in that the laws created by representatives are constrained by policies or laws that prevent the majority of citizens or their representatives from infringing on recognized rights of all citizens, again often times clarified in a charter or constitution. Under democracies, no such restrictions exist, with both the majority and/or elected representatives of the majority able to pass laws as they see fit, regardless of how it impacts the minority.

If we were a democracy, there would be no need for a constitution nor the necessity to clearly identify protected rights as all that matters is what the majority or the representatives of the majority want.

So as I already stated, the U.S. is a Republic with democratic tendencies in the election of representatives and in the creation of some laws (i.e. when proposed laws are put on a ballot). Just because voting can be considered "democracy in action", it can be used as justification to identify the United States a democracy. The measures, policies and laws voted on and created by democratically elected representatives are constrained by the laws of the United States; more specifically, the U.S. Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land and supercedes all perspectives and desires of the majority or their representatives, thereby protecting rights FOR ALL.

So no, we don't recognize your CNN word salad talking point of "constitutional democratic republic", as the definition of a Republic already clarifies that its democratic influence lies specifically with the election of representatives by the citizenry.

And if you want to get all butthurt about people calling BS on you and not me, we can drop primary sources for references to justify our claims.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 04:53:37 AM by Q »

Q

Right wing fascism has been alive in the US for a long time. You want a definition of fascism but you don't believe the dictionary? You promote authoritarianism. You claim to be against democracy. What would that look like? America First?



We're still waiting for you to clarify what fascism and/or a fascist government is.

They refuse to state that they support our democracy or the concept of any democracy in general. Yet they claim to be patriots.

You are correct in that I do not support your imaginary democracy government of the United States, nor purer forms of democracy, based on what has happened under such forms of government.

Case studies: Socrates and the influence of democracy in the establishment of and justification for socialist and communist-based governments of the 20th century, as well as what transgressed under such governments.

I openly state that I support a Republican form of government, which is what our current form of government is.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 04:47:58 AM by Q »

changemyoil66

Q pointed it out, why don't you claim he is making up bullcrap too?

From the dictionary:
Republic
a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

Democracy
a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


I stated we are a constitutional democratic republic. Do you disagree with that characterization?

Democracy word is never mentioned in the constitution or bill of rights. Just sayin...

changemyoil66

Right wing fascism has been alive in the US for a long time. You want a definition of fascism but you don't believe the dictionary? You promote authoritarianism. You claim to be against democracy. What would that look like? America First?



Once again, you never answer the question.  Instead you posted the pic below. I would say these types of people are present all over the world and have been since the Nazi party was established.  It doesn't mean that said countries operate on their principals currently.  I mean if they were so powerful, how did a Barry win? 

eyeeatingfish

The problem is you are consistently limited to what you can quickly Google, rather than reading the works directly related to the development of our government and founding of our nation.

Madison clearly dictated in the Federalist Papers the difference between a Democracy and Republic in relation to the American form of government, while at the same time explaining why our form of government is more correctly identified as a Republic with democracy influences, rather than an actual democracy. This is due to the fact that the latter cannot be successful implemented outside of small numbers/groups of citizens constrained to a localized/centralized area, where the citizenry have direct involvement in the management of state affairs. Conversely, a Republic, with it's elected representatives, facilitates the ability for a larger number of citizens to be represented by their chosen representative, without the constraints of direct involvement necessitated in a democracy-based form of government, thereby facilitating participation over a larger area.

In line with what I already stated, the fundamental difference lies not only in representation and the appointment of an executive (the latter which a democracy doesn't have), but also in that the laws created by representatives are constrained by policies or laws that prevent the majority of citizens or their representatives from infringing on recognized rights of all citizens, again often times clarified in a charter or constitution. Under democracies, no such restrictions exist, with both the majority and/or elected representatives of the majority able to pass laws as they see fit, regardless of how it impacts the minority.

If we were a democracy, there would be no need for a constitution nor the necessity to clearly identify protected rights as all that matters is what the majority or the representatives of the majority want.

So as I already stated, the U.S. is a Republic with democratic tendencies in the election of representatives and in the creation of some laws (i.e. when proposed laws are put on a ballot). Just because voting can be considered "democracy in action", it can be used as justification to identify the United States a democracy. The measures, policies and laws voted on and created by democratically elected representatives are constrained by the laws of the United States; more specifically, the U.S. Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land and supercedes all perspectives and desires of the majority or their representatives, thereby protecting rights FOR ALL.

So no, we don't recognize your CNN word salad talking point of "constitutional democratic republic", as the definition of a Republic already clarifies that its democratic influence lies specifically with the election of representatives by the citizenry.

And if you want to get all butthurt about people calling BS on you and not me, we can drop primary sources for references to justify our claims.

I never claimed that we were not a republic, I do agree that we are a republic. I also agreed with your statement that a republic is a type of democracy,

The problem with these discussions that I was trying to illustrate by referencing the dictionary is that there can be different meanings to the word democracy, different forms of democracy. Someone claiming that we are not a democracy glosses over all those variations and picks a type. For example, you stated that democracy doesn't have the appointment of an executive but a democracy can have an executive leader (presidential democracy). You also say democracies have no such restrictions that protects the rights of all citizens but again this is incorrect, these exist in a constitutional democracy. You are picking a very narrow definition of democracy. If you need to play semantics to win an inconsequential debate then have fun in your echo chamber.

I don't care if you don't recognize my more accurate label.

eyeeatingfish

Democracy word is never mentioned in the constitution or bill of rights. Just sayin...

There are many concepts that are not explicitly mentioned in the constitution, doesn't mean they don't exist. .

changemyoil66

There are many concepts that are not explicitly mentioned in the constitution, doesn't mean they don't exist. .

Like what?  I mean, red flag laws aren' tmentioned, but yet are "constitutional" according to some.

macsak

you are missing the point completely, as usual
we are a constitutional republic and not a democracy because that is what the framers said, not only in the federalist papers, but also in interviews and speeches at the time
all your "nuance" that you are adding is not applicable. if you need to play semantics to win an inconsequential debate then have fun in your echo chamber...

 
I never claimed that we were not a republic, I do agree that we are a republic. I also agreed with your statement that a republic is a type of democracy,

The problem with these discussions that I was trying to illustrate by referencing the dictionary is that there can be different meanings to the word democracy, different forms of democracy. Someone claiming that we are not a democracy glosses over all those variations and picks a type. For example, you stated that democracy doesn't have the appointment of an executive but a democracy can have an executive leader (presidential democracy). You also say democracies have no such restrictions that protects the rights of all citizens but again this is incorrect, these exist in a constitutional democracy. You are picking a very narrow definition of democracy. If you need to play semantics to win an inconsequential debate then have fun in your echo chamber.

I don't care if you don't recognize my more accurate label.

eyeeatingfish

Like what?  I mean, red flag laws aren' tmentioned, but yet are "constitutional" according to some.

You could start with unenumerated rights. Take parental rights for example.

eyeeatingfish

you are missing the point completely, as usual
we are a constitutional republic and not a democracy because that is what the framers said, not only in the federalist papers, but also in interviews and speeches at the time
all your "nuance" that you are adding is not applicable. if you need to play semantics to win an inconsequential debate then have fun in your echo chamber...

You are missing the point, as usual. I don't care if the framers didn't use the word democracy because we are, in function, a democracy. It is like you are telling me it isn't an apple because they said a Red Delicious instead of saying apple. Doesn't matter if we call ourselves a democracy or not, we function as one. and a republic is a form of democracy. 

You guys are arguing semantics for no real benefit other than to try and sound smarter than people on the left.  :wacko:

macsak

sounds like exactly what you do...

You are missing the point, as usual. I don't care if the framers didn't use the word democracy because we are, in function, a democracy. It is like you are telling me it isn't an apple because they said a Red Delicious instead of saying apple. Doesn't matter if we call ourselves a democracy or not, we function as one. and a republic is a form of democracy. 

You guys are arguing semantics for no real benefit other than to try and sound smarter than people on the left.  :wacko:

changemyoil66

You could start with unenumerated rights. Take parental rights for example.

Post the wording in the constitution/bill of rights and then post your example.

changemyoil66

You are missing the point, as usual. I don't care if the framers didn't use the word democracy because we are, in function, a democracy. It is like you are telling me it isn't an apple because they said a Red Delicious instead of saying apple. Doesn't matter if we call ourselves a democracy or not, we function as one. and a republic is a form of democracy. 

You guys are arguing semantics for no real benefit other than to try and sound smarter than people on the left.  :wacko:

Could be a tomato, strawberry, fruit punch, strawberry soda, strawberry fruit roll up, etc...

eyeeatingfish

Post the wording in the constitution/bill of rights and then post your example.

I just gave you an example. Parental rights, it isn't in the constitution.

eyeeatingfish

sounds like exactly what you do...

I go for accuracy. I don't about trying to sound smarter or virtue signaling to a tribe.

changemyoil66

I just gave you an example. Parental rights, it isn't in the constitution.

You didn't answer the question so I'll help.

Parental rights would fall under the vague category of the 9th amendment.  Court cases have also argued that this also falls under the 14th amendment when trying to take someone's child away without "due process". Oh snap, there's that phrase again "due process".

groveler

I just gave you an example. Parental rights, it isn't in the constitution.
"Parental rights, it isn't in the constitution."
you are right for once but it is here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_Liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_Happiness

Declaration of independence.
A document most Hawaiian Democrats abhor.

It implies that the individual has more rights than the community.
Most Hawaiian citizens are stark raving socialists.
Thankfully most all are confined in Honolulu.
lots in Maui and a few others elsewhere.
 >:D