Quote from: Tom_G on July 31, 2010, 12:07:15 AM

Koa was dealt a harsh blow when the new leadership put the Marine rifle range off limits to civilians.  They ran most of their classes at that location.

I'm really curious if that had anything to do with some safety issues brought up by an nco at a past Gabe Suarez course there.

You're not talking about the finding of a 7.62 x 39 casing after a Suarz class, are you? If so, I can assure you that none of the folks in the class shot that round. "Someone" however seemed to think otherwise and all sorts of problems ensured afterwards. Sucks to be blamed for something you didn't do.....

Quote from: Tom_G on July 31, 2010, 12:07:15 AM

Koa was dealt a harsh blow when the new leadership put the Marine rifle range off limits to civilians.  They ran most of their classes at that location.

NO! That is not the truth at all. This was an issue for our club when we sat down and spoke to the G3 at KBay.  They are not allowed to run classes at Puuloa because they are a for-profit organization.  The Marine Corps does not condone using their government facility for free to support Wayne Holu and his commerical venture. As a matter of fact, I believe it is against the law.
As I mentioned before the Marine Corps is about fostering positive relations with the community.  We had to organize our club under that same principle.  We welcome all shooters provided that they obey the rules set forth by the Marine Corps to allow our non-profit club to operate on their ranges.

Not what we were told....we tried to get a course set up there as we had in the past. This was the response:

I have repeatedly spoken to the legal office and the Inspector General's office regarding this and other private organizations request to use Puuloa range.  The answer has always been a collective no.  The Puuloa Rifle and pistol club is the only sanctioned private club allowed to utilize the complex.  They have approved by laws that outline their use.  Any use by that club that violates the intent and spirit of the permissions will cause the club to lose it's range privileges.  It is my sincere wish that this explanation finally puts a stop to these requests.  There are other ranges (Koko Head) that can be utilized for this clubs events.

Semper Fi
Dan Geltmacher
O&T Range Manager

Has this changed since April 2010 when the above was written??

There has been no changes to that ruling by Mr. Geltmacher. Any organization may petition the club to sponsor events, but it must be non-profit, safe and Marine Corps approved. One of the reasons for the Puuloa Rifle and Pistol Club's existence (PRPC) is the Distinguished Rifleman and Pistol Shot program that all armed services participate in. The PRPC is one of the few venues that offer Service Members Excellence in Competition events that offer a chance to earn superior marksmanship awards. The Marines host the Pacific Division Matches at Puuloa once a year . The Chinese Gun Club hosts Pistol Excellence in Competition matches twice a year. PRPC offers Excellence in Competition matches twice a year. Without these clubs, Service Members will need to travel to the mainland to compete for these awards.

There has been no changes to that ruling by Mr. Geltmacher. Any organization may petition the club to sponsor events, but it must be non-profit, safe and Marine Corps approved. One of the reasons for the Puuloa Rifle and Pistol Club's existence (PRPC) is the Distinguished Rifleman and Pistol Shot program that all armed services participate in. The PRPC is one of the few venues that offer Service Members Excellence in Competition events that offer a chance to earn superior marksmanship awards. The Marines host the Pacific Division Matches at Puuloa once a year . The Chinese Gun Club hosts Pistol Excellence in Competition matches twice a year. PRPC offers Excellence in Competition matches twice a year. Without these clubs, Service Members will need to travel to the mainland to compete for these awards.

Well, LIFE is a not-for-profit, has an impeccable safety record, and has used the range in the past, so I am assuming it is "Marine Corps approved." But the statement I provided above was in direct response to our request to use the range.

Your response seems to conflict with Mr. Geltmacher's statement: (FYI, the "this" club reference is to LIFE's request to schedule a class...)

I have repeatedly spoken to the legal office and the Inspector General's office regarding this and other private organizations request to use Puuloa range.  The answer has always been a collective no.

Furthermore, Mr. Geltmacher seems to be implying that the only club allowed to use the range is PRPC, despite your mention of the Chinese Gun Club hosting an event:

The Puuloa Rifle and pistol club is the only sanctioned private club allowed to utilize the complex.

So, maybe you can tell me a little more about why LIFE was denied the use of the range? We seem to meet all the criteria you mention, so why was our request summarily dismissed with what appears to be a fair amount of hostility from Mr. Geltmacher? Is there an appeal process or a superior we can address our requests to?

I appreciate any info you may be able to provide.

Mahalo

Chinese Gun Club (CGC) holds their events at Koko Head not Puuloa. CGC sends match results to CMP for EIC credit for Service members.

The Marine Corps stated that by laws of the club require a 50% military (active, reserve, retired, dependent, DOD civilian) membership. Membership rolls are submitted to G3 annually to ensure compliance. Civilians are allowed to participate as non-club members.(=higher fees for insurance)

PRPC is audited by G3. Meeting minutes and financial statements are submitted annually for inspection.

The big difference is that we bend over backwards to meet the stringent requirements of the Marine Corps. If LIFE wants to hold an event at Puuloa under the umbrella of PRPC, it must meet be approval of the PRPC officers and the Marines.

Another point is that many of the experienced Service Shooters feel rather insulted by the commercial tactical combat wannabees.
The Marines have some of the finest instructors in the world for combat, sniper, and competition marksmanship.
The National Guard sends their High Power Rifle Team to Puuloa every year to conduct a shooting clinic.
They teach for free.
Some of the stuff I've seen peddled as marksmanship and combat shooting is pretty hilarious.

Quote from: Teichi on July 12, 2011, 08:28:32 AM

There has been no changes to that ruling by Mr. Geltmacher. Any organization may petition the club to sponsor events, but it must be non-profit, safe and Marine Corps approved. One of the reasons for the Puuloa Rifle and Pistol Club's existence (PRPC) is the Distinguished Rifleman and Pistol Shot program that all armed services participate in. The PRPC is one of the few venues that offer Service Members Excellence in Competition events that offer a chance to earn superior marksmanship awards. The Marines host the Pacific Division Matches at Puuloa once a year . The Chinese Gun Club hosts Pistol Excellence in Competition matches twice a year. PRPC offers Excellence in Competition matches twice a year. Without these clubs, Service Members will need to travel to the mainland to compete for these awards.

Well, LIFE is a not-for-profit, has an impeccable safety record, and has used the range in the past, so I am assuming it is "Marine Corps approved." But the statement I provided above was in direct response to our request to use the range.

Your response seems to conflict with Mr. Geltmacher's statement: (FYI, the "this" club reference is to LIFE's request to schedule a class...)

Quote

I have repeatedly spoken to the legal office and the Inspector General's office regarding this and other private organizations request to use Puuloa range.  The answer has always been a collective no.

Furthermore, Mr. Geltmacher seems to be implying that the only club allowed to use the range is PRPC, despite your mention of the Chinese Gun Club hosting an event:

Quote

The Puuloa Rifle and pistol club is the only sanctioned private club allowed to utilize the complex.

So, maybe you can tell me a little more about why LIFE was denied the use of the range? We seem to meet all the criteria you mention, so why was our request summarily dismissed with what appears to be a fair amount of hostility from Mr. Geltmacher? Is there an appeal process or a superior we can address our requests to?

I appreciate any info you may be able to provide.

Mahalo

Are you referring to the Chuck Taylor course that was supposedly held by LIFE or Daniel?http://kaneohegs.com/training.htm#PrecisionRifleCourseI
As you can see those are PRPC's highpower targets and frames.  Those supplies are stored under lock and key in our shed.  I don't recall ANY vote or motion to hold this course at Puuloa at ALL!  Did LIFE or Daniel ever help to reface the targets or pay us for its use? NO!  How much did you guys charge?  If I remember that course was approx. $400 per student and where did all that money go?  PRPC did not see any $$$ from this event despite the fact that we pay a yearly insurance premium for our due paying members. And by the way did LIFE have its own insurance policy?  Do any of you show up to our meetings? That is where we decide on our yearly schedule and activities.
We have a National Match course of fire this weekend.  You are free to show up, help out and shoot.  We don't charge hundreds $$ to shoot.   Running the club is a lot of work - unpaid work.  The service members that comprise of the club have been deployed at least twice for a period of two years.
We are always looking for people to help and participate in the club's activities.
HiCarry you seem to think that we have some say in who can access the Marine Corps range. We don't. We have to abide by their rules and we have done so for over two decades now.  I know Daniel talks a lot of crap about the club and I can tell you that is on him. He wanted to use our range privileges for his commercial ventures.  We invited him to our meetings and our shoots.  He did not accept our invitations to this day.
The Marine Corps hosts an open shoot at Kbay on certain Fridays.  OGC and a few of our club members have shot there.

Quote from: peregrine on June 27, 2011, 12:23:50 PM

Quote from: Tom_G on July 31, 2010, 12:07:15 AM

Koa was dealt a harsh blow when the new leadership put the Marine rifle range off limits to civilians.  They ran most of their classes at that location.

I'm really curious if that had anything to do with some safety issues brought up by an nco at a past Gabe Suarez course there.

You're not talking about the finding of a 7.62 x 39 casing after a Suarz class, are you? If so, I can assure you that none of the folks in the class shot that round. "Someone" however seemed to think otherwise and all sorts of problems ensured afterwards. Sucks to be blamed for something you didn't do.....

http://kaneohegs.com/training.htm#AdvancedKalashnikovGunfighting
I see a whole bunch of AKs.

I remember that whole incident. I know both the places and faces. It makes me angry that people were using our club to line their pockets. It was much more than using unapproved ammo and weapons. They violated safety procedures, used unapproved scenarios, and lied about it.

KBay range is pretty garbage though. It's once a month for 3 hours lol. from like 12pm -3pm!

The Puuloa Rifle and Pistol Club supports National Match Shooting. This is a US Government sponsored program since 1903. It was designed around the improving the the defense of the US by promoting marksmanship with the service rifle and pistol. Emphasis is on precision shooting at maximum effective ranges with US service weapons. We support Service Members and Civilians desiring to improve rifle skills at 200yds and beyond. Pistols at 25 and 50yards.

If you want to learn spray and pray techniques in a close quarters combat environment, try paintball and airsoft..

Are you referring to the Chuck Taylor course that was supposedly held by LIFE or Daniel?http://kaneohegs.com/training.htm#PrecisionRifleCourseI
As you can see those are PRPC's highpower targets and frames.  Those supplies are stored under lock and key in our shed.  I don't recall ANY vote or motion to hold this course at Puuloa at ALL!  Did LIFE or Daniel ever help to reface the targets or pay us for its use? NO!  How much did you guys charge?  If I remember that course was approx. $400 per student and where did all that money go?  PRPC did not see any $$$ from this event despite the fact that we pay a yearly insurance premium for our due paying members. And by the way did LIFE have its own insurance policy?  Do any of you show up to our meetings? That is where we decide on our yearly schedule and activities.

Woah, woah, woah!  Put the brake on a little bit, please!

LIFE has sponsored classes there, yes.  We've brought Chuck out a number of times, yes.  And we did it by contacting your club.  If you want to PM me, I'll even name drop the individuals who acted as our liaisons each time over the last 5 years.

Regarding the cost,yes, we did charge for it.  LIFE instructors paid a reduced rate, non-instructors paid a premium rate, your liaisons were given a free pass, as were two members of HPD.  That money did NOT cover the costs.  LIFE, as an organization, eats the expenses each year.  We do this as a way to provide training to our instructors, not as a fund raiser.  We've never once come out in the black from a Chuck class.

Regarding the insurance, yes, we have our own policy, with the Marine Corps base listed as a co-insured.  Have for years, even the years when they wouldn't let us use the facilities.

Regarding allegations of unsafe behavior or violating range rules, bullshit.  I've been there for almost all of Chuck's classes, as have members of PRPC, including the people who acted as liaisons.  In fact, at the last rifle class, members ended up having to share rifles because of the changes regarding permissible calibers. 

We did assist in both retrieving and returning target frames after the Chick rifle classes, as well as refacing some of the older ones.  Anything that was asked by your liaisons, we did.  Anything else, I don't see how you can hold the organization responsible.  If you're upset because you didn't get to vote, or any other aspect of the agreements, I'd suggest taking it up with the persons responsible within PRPC.  LIFE has used the same point of contact for each of these events, and has complied with all requests and instructions from those members of PRPC.

Seriously, try a little fact checking before you leap to the name calling.  We worked HARD to make those events happen, jumped through a lot of hoops in PRPC's name, and, up until this moment, I had been proud of what a great example of inter-club cooperation it had always been. 

Quote from: ren on July 12, 2011, 09:14:09 PM

Are you referring to the Chuck Taylor course that was supposedly held by LIFE or Daniel?http://kaneohegs.com/training.htm#PrecisionRifleCourseI
As you can see those are PRPC's highpower targets and frames.  Those supplies are stored under lock and key in our shed.  I don't recall ANY vote or motion to hold this course at Puuloa at ALL!  Did LIFE or Daniel ever help to reface the targets or pay us for its use? NO!  How much did you guys charge?  If I remember that course was approx. $400 per student and where did all that money go?  PRPC did not see any $$$ from this event despite the fact that we pay a yearly insurance premium for our due paying members. And by the way did LIFE have its own insurance policy?  Do any of you show up to our meetings? That is where we decide on our yearly schedule and activities.

Woah, woah, woah!  Put the brake on a little bit, please!

LIFE has sponsored classes there, yes.  We've brought Chuck out a number of times, yes.  And we did it by contacting your club.  If you want to PM me, I'll even name drop the individuals who acted as our liaisons each time over the last 5 years.

Regarding the cost,yes, we did charge for it.  LIFE instructors paid a reduced rate, non-instructors paid a premium rate, your liaisons were given a free pass, as were two members of HPD.  That money did NOT cover the costs.  LIFE, as an organization, eats the expenses each year.  We do this as a way to provide training to our instructors, not as a fund raiser.  We've never once come out in the black from a Chuck class.

Regarding the insurance, yes, we have our own policy, with the Marine Corps base listed as a co-insured.  Have for years, even the years when they wouldn't let us use the facilities.

Regarding allegations of unsafe behavior or violating range rules, bullshit.  I've been there for almost all of Chuck's classes, as have members of PRPC, including the people who acted as liaisons.  In fact, at the last rifle class, members ended up having to share rifles because of the changes regarding permissible calibers. 

We did assist in both retrieving and returning target frames after the Chick rifle classes, as well as refacing some of the older ones.  Anything that was asked by your liaisons, we did.  Anything else, I don't see how you can hold the organization responsible.  If you're upset because you didn't get to vote, or any other aspect of the agreements, I'd suggest taking it up with the persons responsible within PRPC.  LIFE has used the same point of contact for each of these events, and has complied with all requests and instructions from those members of PRPC.

Seriously, try a little fact checking before you leap to the name calling.  We worked HARD to make those events happen, jumped through a lot of hoops in PRPC's name, and, up until this moment, I had been proud of what a great example of inter-club cooperation it had always been.

I am the treasurer and Teichi was the president at the time - so yes I vote at every meeting.  There are no records of any vote or motion to hold such courses.  What ever was done in regards to "inter club" coordination was done without the consent of the majority vote or PRPC.  We held a very long meeting with the Marine Corps in regards to the incidents that had our club suspended from the range.  No one from LIFE was there.  They mentioned a lot of issues with those courses in particular, which we had no prior knowledge of.  So those "liaisons" who acted on behalf of PRPC did not have the club majority. 

It sounds like there may be some mis-understandings here. It's probably better to work on this privately as opposed to airing it to all of us. Just a suggestion

Remember when this thread started?

I think it was about taking a ccw class, is that right?

Settling back to the original topic of Koa Services.....

I do not recommend their services if you are a combat arms service member - Seek training through your command chain.

We had some laughs with the instructor biographies - Some of us know them personally and know their history.

delete

Settling back to the original topic of Koa Services.....

I do not recommend their services if you are a combat arms service member - Seek training through your command chain.

We had some laughs with the instructor biographies - Some of us know them personally and know their history.

Who would you suggest locally?

Quote from: Teichi on July 13, 2011, 05:05:49 PM

Settling back to the original topic of Koa Services.....

I do not recommend their services if you are a combat arms service member - Seek training through your command chain.

We had some laughs with the instructor biographies - Some of us know them personally and know their history.

Who would you suggest locally?

For out of state CCW permit, I wouldn't recommend any local instructors. I would travel to the state that I wish to carry in and find a reputable instructor there.

Quote from: HiCarry on July 09, 2011, 07:01:52 PM

Quote from: peregrine on June 27, 2011, 12:23:50 PM

Quote from: Tom_G on July 31, 2010, 12:07:15 AM

Koa was dealt a harsh blow when the new leadership put the Marine rifle range off limits to civilians.  They ran most of their classes at that location.

I'm really curious if that had anything to do with some safety issues brought up by an nco at a past Gabe Suarez course there.

You're not talking about the finding of a 7.62 x 39 casing after a Suarz class, are you? If so, I can assure you that none of the folks in the class shot that round. "Someone" however seemed to think otherwise and all sorts of problems ensured afterwards. Sucks to be blamed for something you didn't do.....

http://kaneohegs.com/training.htm#AdvancedKalashnikovGunfighting
I see a whole bunch of AKs.

Yep, but none were fired due to the short notice change of acceptable calibers.

Tom explained things pretty well...my point in bringing this up was that the comments by Mr. Geltmacher did NOT mention anything about improper liasons, no votes recorded about LIFE using the range, no comments about the targets being used, unsafe behaviors or improper calibers. His comments seemed pretty clear to me.

I have repeatedly spoken to the legal office and the Inspector General's office regarding this and other private organizations request to use Puuloa range.  The answer has always been a collective no.

That's what I was asking about and requested some clarification. As to "lying to you" I am not sure to whom you are referring. LIFE operated under the guidence provided by PRPC, or, according to your assertions, those who represented themselves to LIFE as PRPC representatives. I do not recall being given guidence on scenarios, and had we, those guidelines would have been adhered to.

HiCarry you seem to think that we have some say in who can access the Marine Corps range. We don't.

No, actually I had no idea. Hence the questions to you because I did not want to make any assumptions.

I know Daniel talks a lot of crap about the club and I can tell you that is on him. He wanted to use our range privileges for his commercial ventures.  We invited him to our meetings and our shoots.  He did not accept our invitations to this day.

I have never heard daniel talk "crap" about your club. I have heard him comment that it was a shame that LIFE could not use the range as we had in the past, but that was the extent of it. And, unless he wanted to plan classes other than the one's LIFE had tried to sponcer, I know nothing about his attemps to use the range for any commercial ventures.

We held a very long meeting with the Marine Corps in regards to the incidents that had our club suspended from the range.  No one from LIFE was there.

When was the meeting and did you let anyone from LIFE know about it? I find the it somewhat disingenous to infer that LIFE "lined it pockets," acted unsafely, and used improper calibers, then say we were not there to defend our actions at a meeting we had no knowledge of.

I had no idea that this situation was so volitile....I initially asked because if there was any chance of using the range I wanted to investigate what was necessary. But, I think this presents a unique "learning opportunity." As many here will attest, I am all about "us" sticking together. I think some of the "differences" here could have been eliminated or greatly minimized if we had discussed this soon after the event and worked thru a solution. A solution that well may have included LIFE not using the range. That would have been OK if it resulted in the continued good working relationship between the clubs. The bottom line is that I think we could have solved this if we had just talked to each other. And, that is what I am suggesting. If there are any lingering doubts that LIFE did not use an improper caliber, or scenarios, or talked to the wrong guys in setting up the event, let me know. I would be happy to discuss this further to make sure it is resolved amicably and in a manner that restores a good working relationship. I appreciate your help and information.

Aloha