The FBI Killed the Sig P320 (Read 6787 times)

macsak

The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« on: July 09, 2025, 12:33:33 PM »

macsak

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2025, 01:08:32 PM »

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2025, 05:56:20 PM »
Code: [Select]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1tCZ5bV0a0
That's been the problem this whole time.  No matter how detailed the reports of P320s firing on their own or when dropped, the problem can't be reproduced in any controlled setting.

in my profession, when a problem was reported, we didn't say "User is delusional," as much as we wanted to sometimes.  We just reported "Could not replicate problem.  Case closed pending new information."

If the same problem is reported numerous times by a variety of users, then we'd contact the vendors of the hardware and/or software to report the problem.  At least one time, a problem we reported to the Oracle database engine was initially classified as "not reported by anyone else."  A month later we received a patch for the database that was tested and supposed to fix our problem.

The biggest challenge with anything that is experiencing problems is that nobody -- and nothing -- lives in a cookie-cutter, identical environment.  You can't replicate a problem sometimes unless you can replicate the exact conditions that created the problem.  For example, on the AWACS aircraft, mission and training crews kept reporting keyboard problems that introduced errors during a 12 hour mission at least a few times an hour. Each time a report was made, the keyboards were inspected and tested by maintenance tor repair or replacement.  No hardware problems were ever identified.  Finally, one of the support officers decided to go up on a training mission with the squadron that had the most keyboard complaints.  After he landed and addressed the issue, no further keyboard problems were reported.

What he saw on the aircraft was a crew trying to type while wearing their flight gloves!  The gloves made fingers larger than the top surface of a key, so most of the crew were pressing multiple keys when they typed.  The fix was to temporarily instruct crews to not wear gloves when typing.  Additionally, an emergency request was made to Boeing to replace all mission crew keyboards on all E-3's with one that was tested to accommodate gloves.

It's not always easy to identify a problem when you have everyone except the right person working to solve it.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2025, 09:33:46 AM »
That's been the problem this whole time.  No matter how detailed the reports of P320s firing on their own or when dropped, the problem can't be reproduced in any controlled setting.

in my profession, when a problem was reported, we didn't say "User is delusional," as much as we wanted to sometimes.  We just reported "Could not replicate problem.  Case closed pending new information."

If the same problem is reported numerous times by a variety of users, then we'd contact the vendors of the hardware and/or software to report the problem.  At least one time, a problem we reported to the Oracle database engine was initially classified as "not reported by anyone else."  A month later we received a patch for the database that was tested and supposed to fix our problem.

The biggest challenge with anything that is experiencing problems is that nobody -- and nothing -- lives in a cookie-cutter, identical environment.  You can't replicate a problem sometimes unless you can replicate the exact conditions that created the problem.  For example, on the AWACS aircraft, mission and training crews kept reporting keyboard problems that introduced errors during a 12 hour mission at least a few times an hour. Each time a report was made, the keyboards were inspected and tested by maintenance tor repair or replacement.  No hardware problems were ever identified.  Finally, one of the support officers decided to go up on a training mission with the squadron that had the most keyboard complaints.  After he landed and addressed the issue, no further keyboard problems were reported.

What he saw on the aircraft was a crew trying to type while wearing their flight gloves!  The gloves made fingers larger than the top surface of a key, so most of the crew were pressing multiple keys when they typed.  The fix was to temporarily instruct crews to not wear gloves when typing.  Additionally, an emergency request was made to Boeing to replace all mission crew keyboards on all E-3's with one that was tested to accommodate gloves.

It's not always easy to identify a problem when you have everyone except the right person working to solve it.

Reminds me of the time a M1 Abrams Tank turret was delivered to an aircraft carrier.  The captain of the carrier went to the deck it was on and asked WTF.  He read the order and it was marked "mission critical", so no one asked questions and it was delivered quickly.

He then spoke to the guy who ordered it and he put in the order for another mission critical part.  But when it got to the next guy who isn't on the carrier, he put a typo that was off by 1 digit and thus a tank turret was ordered and delivered. Maybe he was wearing gloves too. lol.

macsak

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2025, 12:59:04 PM »

macsak

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2025, 01:02:01 PM »

macsak

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2025, 01:44:04 PM »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2025, 01:52:52 PM »
The Air Force is ceasing using the M18 until further notice.  Rumor is an airman put the M18 while holstered on his desk and it fired, killing him.

In the meantime, they're issuing M4's as a replacement.

If the above is true, this is why it's important to be aware of muzzles, even if holstered.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2025, 05:02:12 PM »
New term to me:  Uncommanded Discharge.  Nobody fired it, so it's not accidental or negligent, I guess.

From what I found, it's not the entire Air Force, nor are they ceasing use of the M18.  It's what's called a "pause" where certain equipment, in this case the M18, is not to be used for the pause duration so investigators have time to assess the risks.  It's also just one AF Command that's been affected:  the Air Force Global Strike Command.  If the investigation finds reasonable justification, then it may become Air Force wide and possibly changed to a complete "grounding" of the weapon until further notice.

Sig M18 Pistols Pulled From Use By Air Force Global Strike Command

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/sig-m18-pistols-pulled-air-233207046.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAChPAZ4Usfkd76Kr6wUM3jbWOie6m8NNK33brhJI4CwiV1fy6DgmcGbapqwPkRJmydqCJDAs4rs_1sQovMHlJIJZjPq1xNPuEiAN3ykIyKTxdXBDX8PNqHxozQXPJsmv1AXm7Ch1CaQcM32a3_yoMLYVjXjiYo5gmMKABkhbWG1v
« Last Edit: July 22, 2025, 05:09:59 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

macsak

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2025, 05:03:08 PM »
https://www.google.com/search?q=M4

The Air Force is ceasing using the M18 until further notice.  Rumor is an airman put the M18 while holstered on his desk and it fired, killing him.

In the meantime, they're issuing M4's as a replacement.

If the above is true, this is why it's important to be aware of muzzles, even if holstered.

macsak

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2025, 07:29:47 AM »

changemyoil66

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2025, 06:33:09 PM »
https://youtu.be/jOMQOtOQoPk?si=mt4avwnT-MlwNOsf

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2025, 05:54:57 PM »
There's bit of misinformation on the P320 User Manual floating around.

in the current manual, the following is in bold font:
Quote
THE MOST EFFECTIVE SAFETY IS TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL
WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, AND TO LOAD A ROUND
IN THE CHAMBER ONLY WHEN READY TO FIRE

https://www.sigsauer.com/media/sigsauer/resources/OPERATOR_S_MANUAL_P320_8501909-01_REV15_WEB_FILE_1.pdf

Some are saying that sentence was added the the manuals recently to try and cover SIG's proverbial ass.

The fact is, the sentence exists in previous manuals for the P320.  The only change is highlighting it in bold font.

Does the font change mean SIG is acknowledging the pistol can fire without any manipulation or snagging your clothes/holsters?

i think the answer to that is obvious.  SIG is emphasizing you have an option by not having a round in the chamber while carrying.  Whether or not you agree with the suggestion, it is, and has been, a valid option to make any semi-auto pistol safer.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2025, 02:30:46 PM »
If u can't watch the 40 min vid above:

If you take up the slack in the trigger and press it less than 1mm.  Then move the slide, the gun will go off.  Moving the slide includes holstering it as that can move the slide.  The P320 slide has a lot of wobble in it compared to other striker fire guns.  Even when you press the trigger fully, you can see the slide slightly move.  This all relates to why the gun goes off.  Also, with the trigger pressed less than 1mm and you insert a full mag, the gun will go bang as this also moves the internal trigger system of the gun.

Well, why would anyone be pressing the trigger 1mm worth while holstering?  This is also mimics if any internal trigger part is out of spec or worn out and then the slide is moved in any way, bang.  This is why we don't all holstered P320s with a round in a chamber go off.  Out of spec stuff happens not only with guns, but all mass produced parts as nothing is perfect.

Kalihi Uka

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Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2025, 09:36:29 PM »
Or you could just carry 8 rounds of .357 Magnum, weighing 23 ounces



… unless of course your name is macsak, in which case you are as gun-less as the day is long.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2025, 10:54:03 PM by Kalihi Uka »
My ankle monitor? It’s right there at home where it belongs

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2025, 11:36:11 AM »
Hickok45 weighs in on the P320 situation:  "So, it's apparently real."

He says you have to trust a firearm 100%, because the one time something goes wrong, no matter how remote the possibility, someone might die.


The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2025, 02:58:52 PM »
Hickok45 weighs in on the P320 situation:  "So, it's apparently real."

He says you have to trust a firearm 100%, because the one time something goes wrong, no matter how remote the possibility, someone might die.




I agree.  I did the side wobble test on all my handguns and nothing.  If I had a P320 as a CCW, i wouldn't trust it.

Kalihi Uka

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Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2025, 07:00:17 PM »
Or you could just carry 8 rounds of .357 Magnum, weighing 23 ounces



I guess I stuck my revolver into the wrong part of the forum at the wrong time.

My apologies - I'm just an insensitive A-hole.
My ankle monitor? It’s right there at home where it belongs

Flapp_Jackson

Re: The FBI Killed the Sig P320
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2025, 11:57:06 AM »
Good video compiling a lot of the information and evidence surrounding the P320 problem.  The Rumble version contains a good interview, too, but I'm not sure if it made it into this clip for YT.

This video was uploaded to YT yesterday but had no audio.  I had to watch it on Rumble.  It's been uploaded again to YT, this time with audio.  I've not had time to rewatch it to see if anything changed.

SIG Sauer is Cooked: Breaking Down the P320 Controversy

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw