i hardly see pple shoot prone....but if theres a long bench waiting list on sun. would the bench guys get mad if we shoot prone between them?   

 
I mostly shoot prone, and I have allowed other shooters to use the bench that I had on the side of me.  Only thing is the target pipes are in conflict.

i hardly see pple shoot prone....but if theres a long bench waiting list on sun. would the bench guys get mad if we shoot prone between them? 

For the last year Ive shot exclusively from a PT mat using a patrol pack for support between benches.  This last trip (my last kokohead trip) I forgot the mat at home and waited for a bench.  I dont bring target stands either, just shoot at steel on the range.

Might I suggest that the state be petitioned to open more shooting facilities, since the ONLY one we have is so crowded.  This option probably would never be considered, but it is worth a try.  If we make too much of a stink about range time limits and other such stuff, then we may not like the real restrictions that our ridiculous law makers will undoubtably levee. 

Funny thing, that.  HRA tried several years back to get support for a range on the Waianae end of the island.  We met organized resistance from gun owners out there, and particularly hunting clubs.  "HRA doesn't represent us," they cried.  "This is not what we want!" 

Years have passed, maybe times have changed.  I certainly agree that the idea fix to the KHSC situation is expanding both hours of operations and number of locations. 

You know, on the mainland, clubs form for the purpose of owning and operating a private range.  Maybe that's a way to go.  See if we can get a good deal on some former sugarcane or pineapple land, preferably at the base of a mountain.  Get a few hundred people to put in a thousand bucks each.  Admittedly the price of land is against us, but it may be feasible.

i hardly see pple shoot prone....but if theres a long bench waiting list on sun. would the bench guys get mad if we shoot prone between them? 

I think the rangemasters would get mad. Not that I've checked. They are pretty strict about what each space is used for. Has anybody tried shooting between others shooting?

Quote from: houdni on October 18, 2010, 05:57:47 PM

i hardly see pple shoot prone....but if theres a long bench waiting list on sun. would the bench guys get mad if we shoot prone between them? 

I think the rangemasters would get mad. Not that I've checked. They are pretty strict about what each space is used for. Has anybody tried shooting between others shooting?

Did it range trip before last, the chubby one with the glasses told me I NEED to put my name on the wait list, so I asked a friend and his bench neighbor if I could shoot between them and shot from there.  It was a good move, 4 girls wearing next to nothing ended up shooting with him.

Did it range trip before last, the chubby one with the glasses told me I NEED to put my name on the wait list, so I asked a friend and his bench neighbor if I could shoot between them and shot from there.  It was a good move, 4 girls wearing next to nothing ended up shooting with him.

See, there are other ways to compromise without giving up more of our rights and freedoms. Sometimes there are other perks as well. 

 

Did it range trip before last, the chubby one with the glasses told me I NEED to put my name on the wait list, so I asked a friend and his bench neighbor if I could shoot between them and shot from there.  It was a good move, 4 girls wearing next to nothing ended up shooting with him.

Hehe I got scoldings for the same thing, because I didn't check if there was a wait list on a weekday.  I saw an open bench, I asked the guys around and then I put my stuff down.  The range officer came over to me telling me I need to check in first because of the waiting list.  I apologized sheepishly and asked him how far back on the list I was, and he goes "Well no, today there isn't a waiting list... but sometimes there is so check in first."  I just smiled and thanked him.  It's not really their fault that the ranges are getting more and more crowded and hours are being slashed.  Those guys allow me an outlet to shoot and ensure my safety doing it so they get my respect.   

Anyhow, I thought the spots in between benches are supposed to be available for use?  Each spot on the ground has a number just like the benches, right?


On a side note, are any range officers registered for the forums?  It might be good to try to recruit some of them and get some of their perspectives on the issues facing the range.

nevermind! got my own question.

Heavies, you're right, there IS a compromise...from the people who have to wait for their barrel to cool off. Not from everyone else. If there are people who shoot 1 or 2 rounds every 30 minutes to an hour, then please explain to me how it hurts them in the least to double or triple up on a bench. Those types of shooters are far in the minority, and judging by your statement that,

We are trying to get the public involved with this sport, and we do not   want any 'noobies' to be offended or put off by a rude person who thinks   they are 'shooting too slow' or 'taking too long'."

It is clear that you are worried about getting the public involved and not scaring off noobies, how do you feel   knowing that more people who would like to shoot don't even bother going   because they don't want to have to wait 2+ hours to shoot while they   watch people doing something like shoot 1 round every 30 minutes? That's   not very Aloha, is it?

...but who is to say that this person or that person is taking too long?

Common courtesy; something that I all too often fail to see here in the "Aloha State." Maybe it's my Southern upbringing, but my idea of courtesy is very different from what I've seen out here.

- Alex

Heavies, you're right, there IS a compromise...from the people who have to wait for their barrel to cool off. Not from everyone else. If there are people who shoot 1 or 2 rounds every 30 minutes to an hour, then please explain to me how it hurts them in the least to double or triple up on a bench. Those types of shooters are far in the minority, and judging by your statement that,

They may allow you to do just that if you ask them nicely.  If not, then that can't be helped. Some people are just assholes.  No law against that.  But that doesn't mean we have to be one.

It is clear that you are worried about getting the public involved and   not scaring off noobies, how do you feel   knowing that more people who   would like to shoot don't even bother going   because they don't want to   have to wait 2+ hours to shoot while they   watch people doing   something like shoot 1 round every 30 minutes? That's   not very Aloha,   is it?

Like I said before, we only have one, and only one, place where we can bring are guns out in the public and target practice.  That being said, they have as much right as you or I to be there, all day if they wish, and shoot as many rounds, or as little rounds as they wish.  If we start putting time limits on this, then more people will be put off.  What the shooting community is doing must be working, the range is busier than ever before.  Now if they start to put more restrictions on how long you are allowed to stay, how much time do you suppose they will give?  3 hours, 2 hours, 1 hour, 30 minutes?  It takes me 45 minutes to 1 hour of driving to get down there on a good day of traffic.  I sure wouldn't like to do all that for 1 or even 2 hours or shooting.  Most times I like to get in as much time as I can.  I got up early, I got me a bench, so why should I have to give it up before I am done with what I came to do?

Have you ever tried to go to Ala Moana beach park and have a picnic or party?  If you wanted to, you gotta wake up super early and get a spot. Other wise your just SOL.  No one is gonna tell you you are there too long and wrap it up.  That's just how it is. 

Ever tried to surf in Waikiki?  That place is a mad house.  If you want to catch some good breaks, you gotta wake up early and get a few in before the crowd arrives.  When the crowd arrives no one is gonna tell you you been out too long and you gotta go in.   

You are at the grocery store and grandma is in front of you taking too long to count pennies to pay for her items.  Are you going to tell her that she is taking too long, and she should allow the persons waiting behind her to go first?  Just because they'll be quicker?

Common courtesy; something that I all too often fail to see here in the   "Aloha State." Maybe it's my Southern upbringing, but my idea of   courtesy is very different from what I've seen out here.

I do see where you are comming from, but I was born and raised here, so I guess my idea courtesy does differ from many of you.  There are some quirks of Island life that just have to be learned. 

If you are first in line then it's your turn, I don't think anyone should tell me to get out of the way because I am taking too long.  This is definitely not courteous.

I think many here are barking up the wrong tree.  Why should we, as the shooting public, have to be restrained with time limits?  The city or state should be the one's to ensure everyone that wants to has a chance to get their rounds in. 
It is their restrictive laws that restricts us from target shooting any other place.  So they must be the one's who provides a place to safely shoot.

 

I am not saying not to rock the boat, but instead let's rock the right boat.

I'm with Heavies on this.  I'd much rather we be a self-regulating community with the occasional bad apples, than needing the range officers or the government to step in and regulate all of us.  The guys who hog benchs are rare in the community and the majority of shooters I've seen are courteous and conscientious of others.  If anything the added demand on the range will force the bench hoggers to find someplace else to hang out and talk story. 

I think the point some others are trying to make is:
 

Have you ever tried to go to Ala Moana beach park and have a picnic or party?  If you wanted to, you gotta wake up super early and get a spot. Other wise your just SOL.  No one is gonna tell you you are there too long and wrap it up.  That's just how it is. 
 
It's inconsiderate as: Setting up a big tent and leave it empty 50% of the 3 hours it's available for people to use while others are standing outside with their tents ready to go.

Ever tried to surf in Waikiki?  That place is a mad house.  If you want to catch some good breaks, you gotta wake up early and get a few in before the crowd arrives.  When the crowd arrives no one is gonna tell you you been out too long and you gotta go in.   
 
It's inconsiderate as: Going to the only public surfing area on the island and anchoring your surfboard while you swim and talk with others who have done the same thing. Going back to catch a wave once or twice every 30 minutes of the 3 hours it's available. Denying any other users.

You are at the grocery store and grandma is in front of you taking too long to count pennies to pay for her items.  Are you going to tell her that she is taking too long, and she should allow the persons waiting behind her to go first?  Just because they'll be quicker?

It's inconsiderate as: Grandma goes straight to a check out counter, leaves her cart there and goes shopping. Coming back every 30 minutes to put something in the cart while people are waiting to use the line. For the 3 hours the store is open.

Here's a few more. Going to the only and extremely busy public driving range, setting up your golf equipment and then leaving it unattended while you socialize half the time. While there are people who must drive 1.5 hours just to get there are waiting and they came on the only day off they could this month.

Going out to the only and extremely busy public baseball diamond and setting up your team there. Then sitting in the benches and socialize. Throwing the ball once or twice every 30 minutes. For the 3 hours it's open. While there are teams who had to drive from across the island to use it on the only day off they had.

Just wanted to point out that I think you were focusing on the wrong subject at hand here.
It's not really about legal issues but more consideration issues. Nor are people pointing fingers at anyone who is legitimately using it the entire 3 hours. It's the ones that deposit their equipment at a bench and then leave it unattended as they go do something else, not just for a few minutes, not just once, but for half an hour or more and multiple times through out the day. There are only 6 half-hours in a day there.
 
So there are inconsideration issues at hand here. Though that in itself is not legal, as is evident, it may cause issues within the users of the range and it doesn't seem like a simple "just deal with it" is considerate for a public facility.

Aloha!,
 
 
I'm not suggesting to impose time limits or charges. But, if someone were to ask me, "Richard, how would you fix this problem?". Id say the best way is build more shooting ranges. I know Hawaii people (in the same glorious wisdom we also demonstrated with the Superferry  ) shot down the idea back when HRA lobbied for it. But I think that's the only fix that would work for both old timers and newbies alike. 
 
 I think they should switch out the rifle range rangemaster guy on the intercom and half of Hawaii's shooters will stop being sleepy and carefree and blah about everything, including how to treat their neighbor. Seriously lol. I haven't been there in a while but following his instructions is like a drip bag of valium in my veins. I think that alone would change the mentality here.

Dregs, thank you, that was precisely my point.

Heavies,
   I NEVER said that there should be time limits imposed. What I did say was that the people that want to shoot off a cold barrel and all know each other could share one or two benches instead of using 3 or 6. I don't think that random strangers should have to go up to the people they don't know and ask to share their bench. If the cold-barrel shooters were courteous (by my personal definition), then they would do that together, ON THEIR OWN. They shouldn't have to be asked to make room for others, but here in the "Aloha State," many people are too worried about themselves and couldn't give a rat's ass about the other people waiting. They got there first, so screw everyone else. It just really irks me when there is a very simple and easy solution. Not that my haole opinion is worth a damn here; I wasn't born or raised here, so what the hell do I know? 

And for the record, I would LOVE another public range on the leeward side of the island as I live on the North Shore, but until that happens, it would be nice if we were able to police ourselves a bit so that as many people as possible are able to utilize the only facility currently available.

As I said earlier, I don't shoot over at the rifle range, so I don't have a dog in this fight. At this point, I will bow out of the conversation since the outcome doesn't affect me one way or another.

- Alex

EDIT
Sorry new post wasnt necessary!

 

I was once inspired to be proactive, but all the fight is gone in me for now.  For example, I hate to admit this but I have grown accustomed to how the shooting community is in Hawaii.

Dude, I am sorry, but I have to say it: How "inspired" were you that in a year of being "proactive" all the fight is gone?? I know folks who have been actively trying to change things here for more than 10 years. How long ago was it that Tom mentioned HRA trying to get a range out on the leeward coast? Some of the same folks who were involved in that effort are still involved trying to protect and improve things for Hawaii's gun owners. 

When I volunteered to help with a couple of the organization it was like fighting tooth and nails just to get an audience for an audition to help for free.  A lot of effort with minimal results.  Unlike the mainland.

I don't know what other organizations you tried to help, but I wouldn't characterize a few e-mails and your single appearance at a class, as fighting "tooth and nails for an audience." I guess the single requirement that you be a NRA certified instructor was just too much of a burden for you to overcome....I would have thought that someone of your skill set would have been able to ace some low level NRA instructor course. And remember, even though you were not an NRA instructor, I offered to continue discussions with you to see if there was some other way you might be able to work with us that would best utilize your skills....you never did follow up on that angle, did you? 

A lot of the organizations talk, but they really do not want any change and it's obvious.  It's okay!  Island mentality Brother!

And probably the most insulting comment of all...as others have mentioned, Hawaii does have an attitude easily described as "Island mentality" but it's not that attitude in the organizations that's the problem. It's the island mentality we are constantly forced to face from the .gov and the anti crowd. As a member of HRA I cannot help but take it personally that you think all the hard fought for victories HRA has championed over the years are somehow just worthless talk. HRA was crucial in preventing an outright ban of handguns under Chief Nakamura, an ammunition serialization and .50cal ban (and several other very bad anti-gun bills...) under Chief Donahue, and got both the Emergency Powers and Castle doctrine bills passed. The last two items took two years to get passed. And they plan to be at the legislature again this session. Standing watch and gathering support to protect your gun rights. You may not think they are doing enough, and that's a fair question. So why don't you jump in now, get involved, and see how much it actually does. And, if you don't think it's doing enough, well, change it. But, don't criticize those that out there doing the work now....you know, those guys and girls who donate at least weekend a month, if not more, to teach classes that allow newbies to get handguns (you know, so we can grow the ranks of firearms owners in Hawaii...), who give up time with their families to go to the meetings, the political gatherings, and the community events to show that Hawaii's gun community is active and involved. That's poor form and just down right rude!
 
I don't doubt your expertise....I have seen you shoot and have spoke to folks that know you. You're good, very good. Too bad you can't channel some of the energy that made you so good into something that might actually help your fellow gunnie who hasn't been given the opportunities you have. I appreciate how disheartening it can be when you think all you're doing is banging your head against a wall and not making any progress. Believe me, I understand. But don't take out your frustrations on those that are sticking it out for the long haul. Don't try to spread your self defeating attitude to those who express an interest in staying the fight, or those who would like to begin contributing.
 
I don't mean to sound patronizing but some of your statements needed to be addressed. I apologize to the others for such a long rant.

What, you've been here Only a year and you want out?
 
I'm 64, want to guess how long I've been in this?
 
Hell, my Wife is from Minnesota, she's adapted to the Island ways.
She knew she's a stranger in a strange land.  She knew going in that she was the one who had to change.  Hawaii wasn't
going to change just for her. 
 
So Why should it change for you?  Who are you that Hawaii should change for?
 
Hi Carry says you can shoot, OK.  So you have "credentials" OK. 
 
But can you teach a young Lady that was Raped to be a self sufficient survivor so she can feel good about herself and say "Never Again"?
 
Can you empower her enough that she can shoot well enough to be a Danger to anyone who wants to mess with her?
 
I know I can.  I can prove it too, but only with the Lady's permission.
 
She's one Woman I would not mess with. 
 
That, is why I teach at LIFE.
 
You're not happy with local politics.  So, what are you going to do about it?  Join the fight or Quit.
 
Never messed in politics before?  Welcome to the Real world.  Not a nice place.
 
The Wife doesn't like politics either, But, she did come out in her nice Mamo Howell Muu Muu on a hot afternoon and Picketed
Rey Graulty's fund raiser.  She was the Only protestor to get interviewed on Channel 2 News.  Made her day, she made a point and
it got across.
 
Got any idea how laws are made?  Deals politicians have to cut before anything happens?  Did you know that it all Starts as soon
as the elections are over and when what power blocks are made and whose on whose team?  Did you know that bills do not magically
appear?  Did you know that the various groups have their agenda already made out so that their friendly politico can push as soon as
the legislature starts? 
 
With the new administration in the Governor's Office, Mayor and Prosecutor, I think we're in for it.
 
Owning a gun is one thing, Keeping it your is another.
 
The NRA is the 800 pound gorilla and is a force in World politics.  It is a registered NGO (non governmental organization) with the UN. 
Working to keep US troops from wear UN Blue helmets in the US.  Unless you're one of those that want to wear UN Blue.
 
The HRA is an affiliate of the NRA.  With out the HRA, Hawaii gun owners would have lost what few rights we have 30 years ago.
To me, there are waay to many gun owners who want guns but are unwilling to work to save them.  Yep, I have strong words for
people like them.  Not afraid to call them out on it too. 
 
Just wrote a check out to the HRA/PAC.  How many of you out there are putting money where you mouth is?  How many contribute to fundraisers for politico that push to Help our cause?
 
So, you can be part of the problem or you can be part of the Ultimate solution. 
 
It's your call.