Frontsight night handgun course (Read 17366 times)

zippz

Frontsight night handgun course
« on: July 08, 2013, 04:40:00 PM »
I attended a 2-night handgun skillbuilder course at Front Sight in Nevada.  It was the middle of the heat wave at over 110 degrees during the day, and 95 degrees at night, but still not too bad since it's dry heat and I had plenty of water to drink.  I had my Glock 22 40SW with me which I had just installed trijicon night sights a couple days before (but didn't zero).  There were about 400 students there for various night classes (shotgun, rifle, handgun, etc) for the 4th of July week, and about 30 students my in class.  There were also quite a bit of children, about 30 or so, that were attending a youth camp there while their parents shot.  Mount Charleston was on fire in the background which made for a nice backdrop.

First day started in the classroom learning about different lighting options, the harris technique, night sights, and other methods to use at night.  I learned that the $110 night sights I just installed would be of little use in the class (which was proven later).  Night sights are only useful in dim light, like twilight where you have enough light to see your target, but difficult to see the sights with a light background.  In darkness, you will need to identify your target with a flashlight, rendering the night sights useless.  Small simple tactical flashlights with the button on the tailcap are the most preferred.  Fancy flashlights with multiple functions and colors are not recommended as things like strobe and other settings get in the way or complicated to operate (which was also proven during the class when people inadvertently used strobe or turned their flashlight on when not supposed to).

We went to the ranges next.  Loading up my 40SW magazines in the dark, I noticed some of the rounds felt funny.  Turns out the ammo shop gave me a box of 9mm instead of 40SW.  On the range we practiced the harris technique.  It took a little getting used to the position and aligning the flashlight with the handgun, but I got a hang of it quickly.  It was basically light on, id target, shoot, assess, light off, move, and scan the area.  Lessons learned was limit your light usage so you don't become a target, move every time you use the light, and be sure to use the light to ID the target and whats beyond.  People were having trouble using their flashlights: accidentally shining their 200 lumen lights into my face, using their strobes or colored lights, and not practicing light discipline.  Fired approximately 150 rounds Class went from 5:30PM to 12:30PM.  Spent most of the next day just relaxing in my hotel room in Pahrump and occasionally doing some dry fire practice.

The next day, July 3rd, we started firing a bit earlier at dusk.  This allowed me to use the night sights which came in handy in the dim light and allowed me to acquire my sights faster.  Others started using their weapon mounted sights.  The 2nd days practice involved headshots, timed shots out of the holster at 3 to 15 yards, multiple targets, and malfunction drills.  I thought the malfunction drills would be difficult to do in pitch black night, but it felt natural and had no problem since I practiced it a lot during my last day class there.  Fired about 200 rounds that night.  It was a condensed course due to the 4th of July celebration there in which there was a Declaration of Independence presentation and fireworks show.  Unfortunately the fireworks was cancelled due to high winds so went back to the hotel earlier.

Had a great time and met some people from Hawaii there too.  I'd highly recommend the class since most people don't have an opportunity to practice at night (when most bad things will happen).  As for the rest of the trip, I lost $1,200 gambling but had a good time there overall.

Kingkeoni

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 08:14:02 PM »
 :thumbsup:  sounds fun
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Heavies

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2013, 08:24:09 PM »
Sweet. Looks like you had a great time!

Aiea78

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Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2013, 08:33:06 PM »
Front Sight has a bad a## facility don't they!  I just went through one of their courses too and looking forward to continuing with them.

I mean, look at this!  "Disneyland for adults".  Yep.

Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

passivekinetic

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 09:37:18 AM »
Interested to know the logistics to get to Frontsight. I am a member already but never took the time to fly over. Seemed quite pricey too.

I would be interested to know about the total hassle/cost of flying there, driving (I assume?) from airport to the location, and where to lodge (on campus or nearby motel)?

And whether it would be a hassle to fly with your own firearms or just rent there. They require a few hundred rounds also I think.

Thanks!
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

zippz

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 11:08:40 AM »
Interested to know the logistics to get to Frontsight. I am a member already but never took the time to fly over. Seemed quite pricey too.

I would be interested to know about the total hassle/cost of flying there, driving (I assume?) from airport to the location, and where to lodge (on campus or nearby motel)?

And whether it would be a hassle to fly with your own firearms or just rent there. They require a few hundred rounds also I think.

Thanks!

The cost is going to be widely variable depending if you travel with others, time of year, caliber of firearm, type of membership, etc.  It's cheap for me, since I go to Las Vegas twice a year anyways, use frequest flyer miles, and travel with a group.  This is better than alot of other places since you can have a vacation in vegas versus going to another firearms place in the middle of nowhere.

Approx cost for a 4 day class would be:
1.  Airfare:  $400-800 depending when you travel.
2.  Lodging:  Saddle West in Pahrump $55 night = $220
3.  Rental Car:  $175/week+$50 gas
4.  Background check fee:  $50
5.  Ammunition:  $200-$1,000
6.  Rental:  $200

There are several other people on here with front sight memberships, so you could join one of us to make the cost cheaper.  I'll probably go later this year when UH plays is in Nevada.

Aiea78

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Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 12:14:01 PM »
Interested to know the logistics to get to Frontsight. I am a member already but never took the time to fly over. Seemed quite pricey too.

I would be interested to know about the total hassle/cost of flying there, driving (I assume?) from airport to the location, and where to lodge (on campus or nearby motel)?

And whether it would be a hassle to fly with your own firearms or just rent there. They require a few hundred rounds also I think.

Thanks!

Super easy to get there.  Fly into McCarren/L.V. get rental car.  Then head out of town on a main road I forget the name Saddleback? It turns into Hwy 160.  You stay on that through the desert all the way to Pahrump.  In fact you will pass Tecopa Road on the left which is the one leads to FS.  I stayed in Pahrump at Best Western, very convenient location to go class from in light of early check in times, was 6:30am first day for me.

There is no on sight lodging unless you bringing an RV.

Fly with your personal firearm and a back up if have one, it's really no big deal and your checked bag will get the priority treament.  Ammo, their shop was out and no reservations so I had shipped to them and it was waiting for me on day 1.

Waited until the very end to gamble and blew $300 on slots at the airport with flight delays but met some nice people in same predicament :D
Zippz - will PM you in a bit that is a great deal.

Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

passivekinetic

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 12:46:42 PM »
Thanks guys. So, buying ammo online to ship there sounds like a fine idea.

As for flying with firearms, what is the process? You get to HNL airport with your firearm(s) in their closed containers, unloaded of course, and tell the counter people (the same ones that give you the boarding pass) that you have a firearm to check in? And where do you get the firearm back? I assume they don't put it on the baggage conveyor belt haha.

Thanks.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

Aiea78

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Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 04:06:23 PM »
Pretty much correct.  Best to print out the TSA and airline's policies and have it with you as many of the counter agents do not know what to do.

Ammo, if you bring some, ok in original factory packaging and in suitcase.  Some say ok to load mags but why hassle just leave in original boxes.  Note weight limits (11 lbs. in general but check)

Firearms (chamber flag recommended) in hard sided case with non-TSA locks.  Only you are to handle / have the key / combo, not the TSA!

Suitcase with TSA lock.

Tell agent you have unloaded firearms to declare.  They give you orange card to fill out, which goes in suitcase.  Some tell you put inside the gun case.  Don't argue just do whatever they want /eyeroll.  You and baggage get escorted to TSA office for visual and swab test (bags not you).  That's it, bags go off to loading, you go off to security check line! 

At far end you pick up bags as usual at carousel.  I suggest you open it and double check contents before leaving.  You may spot additional white TSA card inside indicating it was opened and checked again en route.

Follow all applicable state laws for carrying from there and back, et cetera et cetera et cetera
Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

Aiea78

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Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 04:13:14 PM »
oops, on way home, check and double check triple check you do not have loose ammo in gun, clothes, or bags.  doh. when I got home one round came out in the washing machine.

then 2 more in the dryer!  empty case in range bag!  I was freaking tired.   doh doh doh!

you are going to have a great time at FS.
Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

passivekinetic

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 04:16:23 PM »
Thanks. What is the chamber flag? Is that the gun lock that goes through the chamber and out the bottom of the grip?
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

passivekinetic

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 04:20:32 PM »
Firearms (chamber flag recommended) in hard sided case with non-TSA locks.  Only you are to handle / have the key / combo, not the TSA!

So gun is locked with MY LOCK (chamber lock) but the hard sided case is unlocked/unlockable, and inside my suitcase with is unlocked or has TSA lock?
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

macsak

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2013, 05:24:19 PM »
gun lock as you describe would be ok
chamber flag is the orange thing you see some people use at the range to show that their chamber is empty

Thanks. What is the chamber flag? Is that the gun lock that goes through the chamber and out the bottom of the grip?

Aiea78

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Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 05:43:07 PM »
So gun is locked with MY LOCK (chamber lock) but the hard sided case is unlocked/unlockable, and inside my suitcase with is unlocked or has TSA lock?

gun unloaded - chamber flag goes in slide, these are usually bright orange plastic like big cable ties - to clearly show is unloaded / physically impossible to have round in chamber.  you could use that long cable lock but don't scratch anything!

gun goes in case, the one the gun came in originally is a good one, is hard sided and has loops for you to put master locks type on.  Only you have this key or combo.  Lock it!

case then goes in your suitcase, lock it all up with TSA lock as they need access inside for TSA rules.  if they need inside the gun case, they will cut your locks off.  but I've never heard this happen yet. (only stolen guns but that another story).  Lock it!

Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

Aiea78

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Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

zippz

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2013, 06:06:14 PM »
Go through the front sight instructions at http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmTraining/front-sight.asp.  A few more tips:

1.  traveling with a firearm and ammunition is not a big deal.  Keep it unloaded  in a locked hard sided container, check on ammo limits, and tell the person at the ticket counter.
2.  Some casino's prohibit firearms in Las Vegas (usually ok in Pahrump hotels since you're driving their economy).  For example, don't go through the California hotel lobby dressed in camo and tactical gear with a 54" pelican case.  Keep it discreet, put the rifle in your suitcase or keep it locked in your car trunk.  Or stay in a non-casino hotel.
3.  I suggest staying in Pahrump during your class days, which run about 7:30AM to 7:00 PM.  You could stay in a Las Vegas hotel but it's an hour drive each way and very tiring.
4.  For lunch, I make my own cold cut sandwiches or a cup -o- noodles (they have hot water there) or you can pre-order sandwiches or buy it from the sandwich stand there.
5.  Practice dry-firing and malfunction drills for about 20 minutes every morning and night in the hotel room with a timer.  Print out some small silhouette targets and tape to your wall.  This will help you to pass your exam at the end of the class.
6.  Bring magazine loading devices if you have stiff magazines or your fingers will get raw and ache at the end.
7.  Have fun.  Spend a couple days in Las Vegas.  If you are signing up for the CCW class, make sure you have some time at the end to apply for your permit at the police station.

passivekinetic

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 07:33:10 PM »
Thanks for all the great tips guys. I will update if and when I plan on the trip.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

kong

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2013, 01:40:13 PM »
Haven't been to Frontsight but have been to ITTS and recommend it, it is in LA and if you can find a buddy to go to you can split the cost of a room.

macsak

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2013, 01:52:01 PM »
aloha kong
if you have time, i bet a lot of us would appreciate it if you started a new thread and posted a review
it's always good to learn about our different options for training

Haven't been to Frontsight but have been to ITTS and recommend it, it is in LA and if you can find a buddy to go to you can split the cost of a room.

passivekinetic

Re: Frontsight night handgun course
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2013, 10:17:40 AM »
QUESTION:

Do they have a gun store AT Frontsight? I assume they might, to take even more profit from us? :-D

But seriously, that might be an option (for the future) if I ever decide to go and just buy a gun there, and then bring back to register in HI afterwards.

This might be if I don't fly there directly and go round to other places on the mainland. Can't be lugging any firearms around to various cities, etc.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous