Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts (Read 20304 times)

Sodie

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2015, 10:14:16 PM »
OK DOG. THIS ONES FOR YOU YOU GROUPIE.

   Don't blame the victim.
yet
  There are places I choose not to "hang out."  And I'm sure Rep Brower knows this, too.  And I bet he knew where he was going, and the risks that were involved...
and
Yes, I think he certainly put himself at higher risk of having a potentially violent confrontation by going there.

homeless people have no more self-control than animals?
yet
I should have said  "So you are saying that homeless people, like animals, lack a moral foundation

Photographing a person in a public place is not a crime; if you're in public, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
It should not be taken for granted that what the politician did was legal and beyond reproach

yet
ACTUALLY, FILMING MINORS IS A CRIME

I SHOULD be able to count on other people in my city to not attack me because they feel restrained by a moral code.
yet
they're the kind of people who think it's OK to physically attack someone just for taking pictures?
and
I think a large percentage of the homeless population suffer from debilitating mental illness, or have serious substance abuse problems, or both.


    If you put yourself in a place you'd choose not to hang out, knew the risks involved including having a potentially violent confrontation by going there  by people that have [b]no more self-control than animals[/b] who suffer from debilitating mental illness, or have serious substance abuse problems, or both and think it's OK to physically attack someone just for taking pictures because they do not  feel restrained by a moral code ,

WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU GO THERE WITH A CAMERA ?   :wacko: :crazy: ??? ::) :P :-\ :wtf:

To answer the question at the end of your post first...  Because knowing the risks involved, he felt it was worth that risk to bring attention to the problem by documenting it photographically.  I 100% agree that there is an amount of increased risk involved in what he did.  I'm also saying that fact doesn't in any way excuse the behavior of thugs who would attack a man for taking their picture.

Now:
I didn't say that homeless people have no more self-control or moral foundation than animals.  You implied that by saying you wouldn't go there with a camera (for fear of getting attacked by a homeless person) just like you wouldn't go surfing in murky water (for fear of getting attacked by a shark).  Can we agree that a person with a moral foundation and self-control wouldn't physically attack a person for taking pictures?  If so, then saying you'd avoid going there with a camera because you think you'd be assaulted means you think either 1) they lack a moral foundation, or B) they lack self-control.  I choose to believe they have both.  So why are there places I "choose not to hang out?" Because I know that there are people who will do a similar risk/benefit analysis and conclude that the risk (of me fighting back, or of them getting caught and prosecuted) is outweighed by the potential monetary benefit of stealing what I have (cash, cards, camera, phone, etc.).  Brower got his camera back, so that isn't this situation. 

Do you have a reference for "FILMING MINORS IS A CRIME"?  Because I don't think it is (as long as they're clothed).

Anyway, you seem to think it's ok that he got beaten up because he should've known better.  I think it's not ok, and that there should be consequences for the punks who did it, because that's what we do in a civilized society.  And I'm happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that.   :shaka:

zippz

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2015, 11:46:42 PM »
Filming minors in a public place isn't a crime unless there's another illegal act.

Problem I see with blaming the victim is it becomes an excuse not to take care of the real problem.



mauidog

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2015, 12:12:11 AM »
Filming minors in a public place isn't a crime unless there's another illegal act.

Problem I see with blaming the victim is it becomes an excuse not to take care of the real problem.

It also assumes the victim did something they should not have done.  Using bad judgement is one thing, but he did nothing illegal, inappropriate, or aggressive.  What did the State Rep do wrong?

We're starting to sound like those people who argue you should not walk down your street after dark because it's not safe.  Staying inside after dark is not the answer.  Making the streets safe for people who are doing nothing wrong IS the answer.

This is the same back and forth you get when someone leaves a door unlocked and gets robbed. An unlocked door is not an invitation for a person to commit multiple crimes (trespassing, breaking and entering, theft...).

Ever watch the show where the Cops have a decoy car with keys in the ignition?  The car is rigged so the Cops can kill the power and lock the doors remotely.  The hoods that heist the car get all mad and yell entrapment. 

Sorry, but you can't blame someone else for your actions.  Nobody made you commit that crime but you. 

Should you exercise good judgement and try to use an ounce of prevention?  Yes.  But that doesn't mean if you don't you are wholly or partially to blame when a criminal takes advantage of your carelessness.

The kids ought to be punished with community service and some sort of pubic apology.  Maybe then the word gets out that it's not right to use your fists on someone doing something they have a legal right to do that you don't like.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

PeaShooter

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2015, 04:19:02 PM »
I'm not sure about this, but if you film someone too aggressively (follow them around) I suppose that could be taken as harassment.

mauidog

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2015, 04:20:00 PM »
I'm not sure about this, but if you film someone too aggressively (follow them around) I suppose that could be taken as harassment.

Nope.  If that were the case, we'd have no paparazzi in the US!
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

zippz

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2015, 07:43:48 PM »
What he did does not meet the definition of harassment. 

§711-1106  Harassment.  (1)  A person commits the offense of harassment if, with intent to harass, annoy, or alarm any other person, that person:

     (a)  Strikes, shoves, kicks, or otherwise touches another person in an offensive manner or subjects the other person to offensive physical contact;

     (b)  Insults, taunts, or challenges another person in a manner likely to provoke an immediate violent response or that would cause the other person to reasonably believe that the actor intends to cause bodily injury to the recipient or another or damage to the property of the recipient or another;

     (c)  Repeatedly makes telephone calls, facsimile transmissions, or any form of electronic communication as defined in section 711-1111(2), including electronic mail transmissions, without purpose of legitimate communication;

     (d)  Repeatedly makes a communication anonymously or at an extremely inconvenient hour;

     (e)  Repeatedly makes communications, after being advised by the person to whom the communication is directed that further communication is unwelcome; or

     (f)  Makes a communication using offensively coarse language that would cause the recipient to reasonably believe that the actor intends to cause bodily injury to the recipient or another or damage to the property of the recipient or another.

Rocky

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2015, 08:28:02 PM »
To answer the question at the end of your post first...  Because knowing the risks involved, he felt it was worth that risk to bring attention to the problem by documenting it photographically.  I 100% agree that there is an amount of increased risk involved in what he did.  I'm also saying that fact doesn't in any way excuse the behavior of thugs who would attack a man for taking their picture.

Now:
I didn't say that homeless people have no more self-control or moral foundation than animals.  You implied that by saying you wouldn't go there with a camera (for fear of getting attacked by a homeless person) just like you wouldn't go surfing in murky water (for fear of getting attacked by a shark).  Can we agree that a person with a moral foundation and self-control wouldn't physically attack a person for taking pictures?  If so, then saying you'd avoid going there with a camera because you think you'd be assaulted means you think either 1) they lack a moral foundation, or B) they lack self-control.  I choose to believe they have both.  So why are there places I "choose not to hang out?" Because I know that there are people who will do a similar risk/benefit analysis and conclude that the risk (of me fighting back, or of them getting caught and prosecuted) is outweighed by the potential monetary benefit of stealing what I have (cash, cards, camera, phone, etc.).  Brower got his camera back, so that isn't this situation. 

Do you have a reference for "FILMING MINORS IS A CRIME"?  Because I don't think it is (as long as they're clothed).

Anyway, you seem to think it's ok that he got beaten up because he shouldv'e known better.  I think it's not ok, and that there should be consequences for the punks who did it, because that's what we do in a civilized society.  And I'm happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that.   :shaka:

S=I didn't say that homeless people have no more self-control or moral foundation than animals.

R=Right, you implied that I was saying IT ("So are you saying homeless people have no more self-control than animals?") when I said it was not wise to surf in brown water because of the increase chance of shark attack.

    This statement had nothing to do with homeless people in particular, much less their self control but more on placing yourself in what may be a dangerous situation.
That is why I asked  you  "By which thought process do you come up with this kind of response ? 

  I did not say I wouldn't go there with a camera nor did I Imply I had "fear of getting attacked by a homeless person".
(S="You implied that by saying you wouldn't go there with a camera (for fear of getting attacked by a homeless person") .
   
   I asked YOU
R=WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU GO THERE WITH A CAMERA
because of all of the things YOU said...
S= put yourself in a place you'd choose not to hang out, knew the risks involved i
S=having a potentially violent confrontation
S=people that have no more self-control than animals who suffer from debilitating mental illness, or have serious substance abuse problems, or both
S=think it's OK to physically attack someone
S=they do not  feel restrained by a moral code.


    What I did say starting from the 1st post is
R="Wasn't right (what the perps  >:D  did)  but he put himself in the situation." :crazy:

S=Can we agree that a person with a moral foundation and self-control wouldn't physically attack a person for taking pictures?
R=Sure. i think that a person with a moral foundation and self-control wouldn't physically attack a person for any reason !  :thumbsup:
   
S=  "If so, then saying you'd avoid going there with a camera because you think you'd be assaulted means you think either 1) they lack a moral foundation, or B) they lack self-control.
 I choose to believe they have both"'

No,  what you think is
S="a large percentage of the homeless population suffer from debilitating mental illness, or have serious substance abuse problems, or both..." ' :shake:
I would avoid putting myself in that situation if it were true.

  S=  So why are there places I "choose not to hang out?"
Because I know that there are people who will do a similar risk/benefit analysis and conclude that the risk (of me fighting back, or of them getting caught and prosecuted) is outweighed by the potential monetary benefit of stealing what I have (cash, cards, camera, phone, etc.)'

Ohhhh, I get it .
You wouldn't put yourself in the situation either.  :geekdanc:

S=Brower got his camera back, so that isn't this situation. 
Brower got his camera back because he was a politician and it hit the news.
If it was you who got beat and his camera stolen, do you think your call to 911 would have gotten you and your assailants on the news and your camera back ?  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

S=Do you have a reference for "FILMING MINORS IS A CRIME"?
Nope, ya got me there.  :worship:
    I was under the impression that a minors photograph could not be taken without parents/guardians permission but I guess that would only be when used for news, crime, advertisements, documentaries, court, polItics etc...
    Must have gotten that idea from how they always have the minors face blurred in the above examples.

S=Anyway, you seem to think it's ok that he got beaten up because he should've known better.
Again,  "By which thought process do you come up with this kind of response ?   :wacko:

    Here is my  original post and explanations in your own words below each of the 3 sentences so you may better grasp  my 3 sentence post .

R=You go into an area where people are destitute to photograph them.
S="There are places I choose not to "hang out.""

R=+10 for lack of intelligence.   :crazy:
S="And I'm sure Rep Brower knows this, too."

R=Wasn't right
(S=None of which excuses the unacceptable behavior on the part of the kids that assaulted him)
R= but he put himself in the situation.
S="And I bet he knew where he was going, and the risks that were involved"

Better ?
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

Rocky

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2015, 08:40:50 PM »


Should you exercise good judgement and try to use an ounce of prevention? 
Yes. 
But that doesn't mean if you don't you are wholly or partially to blame when a criminal takes advantage of your carelessness.


Sorry Dog,
Gotta Disagree.
Do not support criminal activity by allowing yourself to become a "victim".  :thumbsup:

“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

mauidog

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2015, 09:15:09 PM »

Sorry Dog,
Gotta Disagree.
Do not support criminal activity by allowing yourself to become a "victim".  :thumbsup:

Then by definition you are blaming the victim for something that is not his fault.  There is a difference between being careless and doing something wrong. 

Unless you can point to something he did wrong or illegal, then he's not to blame. 

If your kid gets beat up in school for his/her lunch money, I suppose it's your kid's fault for not giving the bully the money, or for even having cash in the first place?  Your kid exercised poor judgement by carrying cash instead of asking you for a check.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

PeaShooter

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2015, 01:28:36 PM »
The lunch money is a different issue because you have to have money if you want to buy lunch. I don't think the lunch lady will accept a check. Most kids don't have bank accounts, either. The politician didn't need to do what he did.

About the §711-1106 definition of harassment, I wonder then if it is legal to crawl around the ground filming up women's skirts? :love:

Rocky

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2015, 01:51:18 PM »
Then by definition you are blaming the victim for something that is not his fault.  There is a difference between being careless and doing something wrong. 

Unless you can point to something he did wrong or illegal, then he's not to blame. 

If your kid gets beat up in school for his/her lunch money, I suppose it's your kid's fault for not giving the bully the money, or for even having cash in the first place?  Your kid exercised poor judgement by carrying cash instead of asking you for a check.
Then by definition you are blaming the victim for something that is not his fault

No, I said
Do not support criminal activity by allowing yourself to become a "victim".
(Why are people always saying "you said", "you mean" "you implied", "you think when you didn't say,you didn't mean,you did not imply , and that's not what you thought ?  :crazy:)

    By "definition", I'm trying to express that I try my best not to become involved in any way, shape or form with "criminal activity" by not supporting such "criminal activity"  by "allowing"  myself to "become a victim" of "criminal activity".  :geekdanc:

i.e.:
    I do not walk alone into a crowded titty bar at 2 am Saturday night with C-notes hanging out of my shirt top pocket.   8)
I have every right to walk into the bar at that time and to display my money.  :wave:
    I am doing nothing wrong or illegal. :D
If I get beat up and robbed, was I merely "careless" and there fore not to blame for what happened to me ?  :'(

    As for the topic of  Brower, he openly ALLOWED himself  "to become a "victim" by PUTTING  himself in a situation where he KNEW he would be pissing off people.
    He may have even PLACED himself in jeopardy on purpose to get beat up and say "See, these homeless people are dangerous".
I mean isn't it his agenda. . .
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/18/tom-brower-hawaii_n_4299256.html
"Brower, according to the Star-Advertiser, is "disgusted" by the city's chronic homelessness problem and has decided to take a self-proclaimed "tough-guy" approach to solving it."  :grrr:
"He also seems unconcerned by the prospect of initiating or escalating an altercation with a homeless person."

    As for "If your kid gets beat up in school for his/her lunch money, I suppose it's your kid's fault for not giving the bully the money, or for even having cash in the first place?  Your kid exercised poor judgement by carrying cash instead of asking you for a check."
AGAIN, by which thought process do you come up with this kind of response ?  :crazy:
   
    In  your example, my child was a true victim in that he did not place himself in the situation with the bully.
He was attending school, but did not go to school to specifically confront or interact  (or take a picture's of)  the bully.   
This is a crime of strong arm robbery aka robbery in the 2nd degree,and the bully should be prosecuted

    As my  "kids" are of college age, they  should be able to defend themselves from bodily harm by any means possible.
    The reason for the "right to bear arms" would come in pretty handy if you were to be assaulted (or "beat up") for the purpose of robbery or any other reason..
I support (reasonable) possession of firearms in school environments.
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

mauidog

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2015, 03:00:59 PM »
The lunch money is a different issue because you have to have money if you want to buy lunch. I don't think the lunch lady will accept a check. Most kids don't have bank accounts, either. The politician didn't need to do what he did.

About the §711-1106 definition of harassment, I wonder then if it is legal to crawl around the ground filming up women's skirts? :love:

And you don't "need" a gun, either.

He had a right to be there taking pictures, just like you have a right to own a gun.

No one can tell me one thing he did that was WRONG or ILLEGAL.  Until you can, then he has a right to be there doing what he did.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

Rocky

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2015, 07:29:19 AM »
And you don't "need" a gun, either.

He had a right to be there taking pictures, just like you have a right to own a gun.

No one can tell me one thing he did that was WRONG or ILLEGAL.  Until you can, then he has a right to be there doing what he did.

I don't think anybody is arguing that anything he did was WRONG or ILLEGAL or that he did not have a right to be there doing what he did.
We're just saying he was an idiot for being there doing what he did.  :crazy:
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

Rocky

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2015, 07:30:34 PM »

No one can tell me one thing he did that was WRONG or ILLEGAL. 
Until you can, then he has a right to be there doing what he did.

As with all rights, you are free to exercise them (including free speech). 
You are also free to experience the consequences and repercussions such exercising of your rights might precipitate!

Sorry Dog, but  it was too easy.  :rofl:
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

Rocky

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2015, 07:30:46 PM »
As with all rights, you are free to exercise them (including free speech). 
You are also free to experience the consequences and repercussions such exercising of your rights might precipitate!

Sorry Dog, but  it was too easy.  :rofl:

      Unless anybody has any other rebuttal, I think I'm done here but for this.

    Just for the record, I was once homeless living in my 68 Chevy Belaire that threw a rod during a Wisconsin Winter while working and finishing school.
I had more self-control than animals, did not suffer from debilitating mental illness, or have serious substance abuse problems.
I was not careless when someone broke the window and popped the trunk of the car while I was at school (or work) stealing whatever I had of value and strewing the rest of what little personal possessions I had in the dirty snow.
I was just not there.
 :closed:


 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 07:51:23 PM by Rocky »
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

mauidog

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2015, 07:51:34 PM »
As with all rights, you are free to exercise them (including free speech). 
You are also free to experience the consequences and repercussions such exercising of your rights might precipitate!
Sorry Dog, but  it was too easy.  :rofl:

Too easy to misconstrue what I meant?

Right!

If the consequences are predictable, that's one thing.  The man being beaten for taking pictures in public is not something a normal person would necessarily predict.  I know I wouldn't!
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

PeaShooter

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2015, 10:59:26 AM »
I would definitely predict that if I went alone into a homeless camp and started taking pictures, even pictures without any actual persons in them, that I would be beat up, at the very minimum. I think any reasonable person would predict that.

I would still side with the politician so long as he did not take any pictures of any actual homeless persons, or do anything else to aggravate them. In that scenario I'd expect him to be beat up, but the law should make some feeble attempt to protect him. (I say feeble, because it's not like the law can do much here. What can it do? Sue the homeless people for money? Put them in jail?)

If the politician deliberately aggravated the homeless, then I would be inclined to side with the homeless, though I can't say which side the law would take in that case.

(Not sure why Rocky put more fuel into the fire, though. I think for the most part this thread has run its course).

mauidog

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2015, 11:13:15 AM »
I would definitely predict that if I went alone into a homeless camp and started taking pictures, even pictures without any actual persons in them, that I would be beat up, at the very minimum. I think any reasonable person would predict that.

I would still side with the politician so long as he did not take any pictures of any actual homeless persons, or do anything else to aggravate them. In that scenario I'd expect him to be beat up, but the law should make some feeble attempt to protect him. (I say feeble, because it's not like the law can do much here. What can it do? Sue the homeless people for money? Put them in jail?)

If the politician deliberately aggravated the homeless, then I would be inclined to side with the homeless, though I can't say which side the law would take in that case.

(Not sure why Rocky put more fuel into the fire, though. I think for the most part this thread has run its course).

Where did it say he "went into a homeless camp?"
Quote
Brower said at a press conference Tuesday that two males assaulted him after he took photos of the street.
Brower said there were no people in his photos and that he never acted aggressively toward the men who
attacked him

There have been no accounts from any that were interviewed saying he went into the encampment. 
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

PeaShooter

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2015, 11:39:30 AM »
The original linked article has now been updated to add the politician's side of the story, which can also be found here:
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20150630_Brower_gives_his_account_of_assault_in_Kakaako.html

I'm don't know what defines the bounds of the encampment, but according to the following article the kids did say:
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/29438018/state-rep-tom-brower-injured-in-altercation-at-kakaako-homeless-camp

"How would you feel if I walked in your house and just started recording you, right? We live here, this our house, respect it," Totoa said.
"He was video recording me and walked up to him and asked him if he could please delete that picture and that video, and he was telling me no, you should back off,” Iose said.
“He caught his whole face on camera. So we asked him nicely if he could put down his camera. And the guy said no, " Totoa added.

The politician's story does not seem to be fully compatible with the kids' version of events. No surprise there. That's why we have juries, and why I'm personally not willing to jump to conclusions about whose version of events is more accurate.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 11:46:51 AM by PeaShooter »

mauidog

Re: Homeless people beat up politician who smashed their carts
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2015, 01:03:50 PM »
The original linked article has now been updated to add the politician's side of the story, which can also be found here:
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20150630_Brower_gives_his_account_of_assault_in_Kakaako.html

I'm don't know what defines the bounds of the encampment, but according to the following article the kids did say:
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/29438018/state-rep-tom-brower-injured-in-altercation-at-kakaako-homeless-camp

"How would you feel if I walked in your house and just started recording you, right? We live here, this our house, respect it," Totoa said.
"He was video recording me and walked up to him and asked him if he could please delete that picture and that video, and he was telling me no, you should back off,” Iose said.
“He caught his whole face on camera. So we asked him nicely if he could put down his camera. And the guy said no, " Totoa added.

The politician's story does not seem to be fully compatible with the kids' version of events. No surprise there. That's why we have juries, and why I'm personally not willing to jump to conclusions about whose version of events is more accurate.

You're going to believe the ambiguous assumptions and accusations of the minors
who beat up a man using a camera AND STOLE IT FROM HIM
over the word of a State Representative ???

I can see that ...   :wave:
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper