I've been to Tokyo many times I know of what a good public transit system looks like and its amazing.  I've used Bart and its not as bad as you all say.

BART salaries.
https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/san-francisco-bay-area-rapid-transit-district/?page=1
Kind of like a longshoreman's union dock job, a license to steal.

Public transportation is a jobs program for Union Democrats.

We may have lots of Japanese here but this is America, not Japan.
Way different culture.
You can see it the way they vote here. Concept of
personal freedom is alien to many of them.
That is why we are a single party state.

I've been to Tokyo many times I know of what a good public transit system looks like and its amazing.  I've used Bart and its not as bad as you all say.

no one is denying that good public transit is not a good thing...

BART salaries.
https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/san-francisco-bay-area-rapid-transit-district/?page=1
Kind of like a longshoreman's union dock job, a license to steal.

Public transportation is a jobs program for Union Democrats.

We may have lots of Japanese here but this is America, not Japan.
Way different culture.
You can see it the way they vote here. Concept of
personal freedom is alien to many of them.
That is why we are a single party state.

and we are just seeing the capital expenses...not the operating expenses

BART salaries.
https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/san-francisco-bay-area-rapid-transit-district/?page=1
Kind of like a longshoreman's union dock job, a license to steal.

Public transportation is a jobs program for Union Democrats.

We may have lots of Japanese here but this is America, not Japan.
Way different culture.
You can see it the way they vote here. Concept of
personal freedom is alien to many of them.
That is why we are a single party state.

Nothing wrong with unions lol.  I am pretty sure they pay the rail workers in japan,  I don't see how that is related.  Are you relating culture to riding the rail or funding it?   Not sure how personal freedom is affected by public transport.  You can drive a car if you want....

no one is denying that good public transit is not a good thing...

In a sense I am.
As long as it is political it will not
work.
If it can survive as a private enterprise
then I'm all for it.

In a sense I am.
As long as it is political it will not
work.
If it can survive as a private enterprise
then I'm all for it.

Do you use any government programs?  Just curious.

DRCK1000 probably knows better than I do. But how bad is concrete, its ingredients, and its manufacture to the environment?

Manufacture of Cement:
“Coal is used as an energy source in cement production. Large amounts of energy are required to produce cement. It takes about 200 kg of coal to produce one tonne of cement and about 300-400 kg of cement is needed to produce one cubic metre of concrete.” One cubic meter is close in size to one cubic yard which is how we measure concrete here in the state.

https://www.worldcoal.org/coal/uses-coal/coal-cement

Strip Mining of Aggregates for Concrete. Strip mining ruins the environment. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to mine, transport, grind, sieve, transport and store course aggregates. And then you have to transport and store them at the concrete plant. You have to add re-transporting and re-grinding and re-sieving and re-transport to make fine aggregate. And add transport and storage at the concrete plant. All using large heavy diesel equipment whose exhaust is not regulated by the EPA. And you are left with huge holes in the ground that cannot be used for anything. And in some cases are filled with hazardous waste.

Manufacture of concrete:
“The production of 1 m³ of concrete requires 2,775 MJ of energy. This energy comes mostly from oil burning, which generates CO2. 2.775 MJ of energy is produced by 0.37 barrels of oil. Saving concrete, e.g. by adopting appropriate building solutions, means therefore not only reducing fossil fuels consumption, but also pollutant emissions.”

https://www.geoplastglobal.com/en/blog/energy-consumption-production-of-concrete/

Manufacturing of Chemicals used in Concrete:
It takes huge chemical plants to make the hundreds of chemicals which are bad for the environment just to make concrete. All of these chemical plants get their electricity from coal and oil burning plants.

What does it take to transport all the ingredients to Hawaii?

Concrete costs about $150-$200 per cubic yard in Hawaii. It takes approximately 14 cubic yards to make just one segment of the rail system. Just multiply the energy costs I listed above to make just one segment of the rail. And you will see how bad the rail is to the environment. And none of this takes into consideration the tremendous amount of waste in manufacturing all these products. It will take thousands of segments to make the rail system here.

And of course none of this takes into consideration the thousands of other products that are manufactured for this system like the steel rails. If anyone here thinks the rail is good for the environment, just for the concrete the proof otherwise is above.

That's another angle that I had in mind.  However, I was waiting for the "all knowing" to answer a question, not offer a guess. 

Concrete, particularly cement production is a tricky one because not many people know the ins and outs like you would.  You actually probably know more on this than I do since I've been out of the "technical game" for a while.  The construction industry does have initiatives to make concrete product production more sustainable, like fly ash, slag, etc.  That said, ever seen where many of those products end up coming from?  Some slick corporations got it into the heads of politicians that it was a good idea and it got written into law.  Now many US suppliers can't keep up, so guess where a lot of those products end up coming from? 

Even for the projects I work on.  One may assume that Buy America Act would prohibit that, but there are so many ways around the act.  It wasn't until a Korean/US JV that I dealt with recently that I realized just how easy it is to work around many of the BAA provisions.  So again, it may look good on paper, but when one digs into it. 

HECO was brought up as another example of support for Rail and climate change.  Bwahahaha.  Nice try.  Yes, HECO is trying to get to the State mandate of 100% renewable by 2045.  Well, that plan had them decommissioning parts of the Waiau plant starting, uh, like now.  Not happening.  Other parts of their plan was to try to leverage groups that they felt would be exempt from the State mandates, but that mostly has fallen through.  Even if the plans had worked, it was at best a work around where HECO could claim success and the "partner" groups that were leveraged would be operating pretty close to status quo.

Nothing wrong with unions lol.  I am pretty sure they pay the rail workers in japan,  I don't see how that is related.  Are you relating culture to riding the rail or funding it?   Not sure how personal freedom is affected by public transport.  You can drive a car if you want....

There is a lot wrong with Government employee unions.
but that is another thread.
The culture I refer to is one where you are a cog in the machine vs.
being a person that is self Actualizing.

How am I affected by public transport?
I wear a carbon fiber knee brace provided by the Veterans
Administration.
It takes me 10 extra minutes to get on a fvcking airplane,
due to a near strip search and wipe-down explosives checks.

Japan is a very different context than Hawaii or anything in the US.  I haven't lived there, but have spent quite a bit of time there for work, and leisure.  That they can mobilize construction projects to install train stations and rail UNDERNEATH existing buildings is staggering.  They also don't have nearly the environmental regulations we do.  What is being done in Japan would take decades to clear in the US, nevermind the protest.  The "for the greater good" mentality doesn't fly here. 

Do you use any government programs?  Just curious.

I'm a disabled Vietnam era Vet so I use the VA for medical.
My wife gets a subsidy for her medical which we did not need
or want prior to Obama care.
Next year we will both be on Medicare and Social security which we PAID for
in 40 plus years of working.
BTW had the government not force-ably took all that money over the years,
I'd have a lot more in my retirement bank.

I've been to Tokyo many times I know of what a good public transit system looks like and its amazing.  I've used Bart and its not as bad as you all say.

Any of those systems a one line, point A to point B system and back again?

You can’t even start to compare our planned system to Tokyo, New York, San Francisco, D.C., Chicago, etc.....

Nevermind maintaining a steel on steel system that runs along a salt air shoreline.
Nevermind the destruction of the views, eyesore in a place that counts on views for tourist revenue.

The graft on rail planning and construction is indisputable.
The graft on development surrounding the rail line is indisputable.
All kinds of permitting and planning exceptions for developers building along the rail line.
What is it, within a mile of a rail station?
60 foot height limit for buildings in that zoning area. Oh it’s within a mile of a station? Yeah build your condo building to 350 feet. Variance.
Check out the first station in the middle of a field in Kapolei.
They’re gonna build an entire community around it.
Doesn’t even go to U.H. The number one traffic congester of them all.
The tail is wagging the dog.

The technology will be obsolete before it’s finished.

They should just use it as an express bus route and dump the buses of at the Middle St. bus depot where people can transfer and go where they like.

Then again, H3 took forever, suffered through all the protests, cost a fortune (lot of Federal money though) and now it’s super convenient and highly utilized.
Of course, H3 is a freeway and doesn’t take the car out peoples hands so they can continue on their merry way after getting off.

Any of those systems a one line, point A to point B system and back again?

You can’t even start to compare our planned system to Tokyo, New York, San Francisco, D.C., Chicago, etc.....

Nevermind maintaining a steel on steel system that runs along a salt air shoreline.
Nevermind the destruction of the views, eyesore in a place that counts on views for tourist revenue.

The graft on rail planning and construction is indisputable.
The graft on development surrounding the rail line is indisputable.
All kinds of permitting and planning exceptions for developers building along the rail line.
What is it, within a mile of a rail station?
60 foot height limit for buildings in that zoning area. Oh it’s within a mile of a station? Yeah build your condo building to 350 feet. Variance.
Check out the first station in the middle of a field in Kapolei.
They’re gonna build an entire community around it.
Doesn’t even go to U.H. The number one traffic congester of them all.
The tail is wagging the dog.

The technology will be obsolete before it’s finished.

They should just use it as an express bus route and dump the buses of at the Middle St. bus depot where people can transfer and go where they like.

Then again, H3 took forever, suffered through all the protests, cost a fortune (lot of Federal money though) and now it’s super convenient and highly utilized.
Of course, H3 is a highway and doesn’t take the car out peoples hands so they can continue on their merry way after getting off.

I agree I woulda liked mag lev or something more technological advanced.  I personally think that the height limits along the rail is 100% the point and a wonderful thing.  I am buying a place near a station just so I can use it to go places I need to go and not sit in traffic.  You can't insta convert oahu to Japan we need to do it slowly.  We build communities around the rail,  then they use the rail more and its a positive feedback loop.  Then we expand the rail to other places like UH and west oahu and branch off to other communities.  Its a work in progress not perfection on day one. 

and we are just seeing the capital expenses...not the operating expenses

When the "plan" for rail was presented to the city council, the budget left out the cost of electricity for construction, maintenance and operations.

It's an electric train, but somehow they "overlooked" the fact that energy of any type costs money.

That omission lowered the original estimates by 40%.

When they have to lie to get approval, you know the project is starting out under the tacit admission that it's not worth the pricetag.

Branch off?

Have you seen the size of the Thing and how much space it takes?
We live on an Island.
And what will the noise level be?
And as mentioned, operating expense?

And how many more high rise communities In the suburbs and 5,000 house communities In the Ag fields can we sustain?
Environmental conscious?
How many more cars is that?
How much green space disappears?

What about Water, sewage, increased electricity usage?

At least it provides shade I guess.

Branch off?

Have you seen the size of the Thing and how much space it takes?
We live on an Island.
And what will the noise level be?

And how many more high rise communities In the suburbs and 5,000 house communities In the Ag fields can we sustain?
Environmental conscious?
How many more cars is that?

What about Water, sewage, increased electricity usage?

Are you advocating shrinking oahus population?  Not sure what you want.  If we keep growing and we are running out of land, the only way is up.   Building more communities with more cars all over in every pocket of land on oahu is much worse.

If you replace a lane with tracks you can branch off fairly easily. Where there is a will there is a way.

I had a lot more questions than that posted above.
Sustain being a key one.

Re: population:
https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/04/hawaiis-population-decline-signals-future-economic-challenges/

Are you advocating shrinking oahus population?  Not sure what you want.  If we keep growing and we are running out of land, the only way is up.   Building more communities with more cars all over in every pocket of land on oahu is much worse.

If you replace a lane with tracks you can branch off fairly easily. Where there is a will there is a way.

From an environmental stand point, what does it matter where the cars are located ?
That’s still 15,000 To 30,000 more cars.

If you replace a lane with tracks on a two lane road with a bike path we’re all fawked all the time.

If you replace a lane with tracks you can branch off fairly easily. Where there is a will there is a way.

fairly easily?
like the rail project so far has gone fairly easily?

smh...

Branch off?

Have you seen the size of the Thing and how much space it takes?
We live on an Island.
And what will the noise level be?
And as mentioned, operating expense?

And how many more high rise communities In the suburbs and 5,000 house communities In the Ag fields can we sustain?
Environmental conscious?
How many more cars is that?
How much green space disappears?

What about Water, sewage, increased electricity usage?

At least it provides shade I guess.

Wait until those families who will sue because the Rail put the concrete supports in the path of their drunk driving family member. But eh, everyone else is responsible for their bad decision.

When the "plan" for rail was presented to the city council, the budget left out the cost of electricity for construction, maintenance and operations.

It's an electric train, but somehow they "overlooked" the fact that energy of any type costs money.

That omission lowered the original estimates by 40%.

When they have to lie to get approval, you know the project is starting out under the tacit admission that it's not worth the pricetag.

What? Say it ain’t so. But, but, but, people know it’s obviously better and going reduce emissions.

I had a lot more questions than that posted above.
Sustain being a key one.

Re: population:
https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/04/hawaiis-population-decline-signals-future-economic-challenges/

i was going to mention this
our state and county covid response is fucking up our economy and people leaving will make it worser...