So pretty much everyone here is for the Constitution/Bill of Rights.  2a shall not be infringed, etc...

So if you were gov/mayor, what would you have done to combat CV?

Ige/Kirk mandated a 14 day quarantine for all those incoming, even if not sick.  Is this unconstitutional?  There is a part about freely being able to travel between states, but to me it sounds like  a loop hole. They are allowing people in the state (free travel), but once here, they have to stay home for 14 days.

For me, if I were in charge, Is there a part that protects business from being closed by the government?  But for churches, I would ask them to close temporary.  Key word is ask, not mandate.  And mention and stress the reason why I cannot do shut downs is because of the rights the people have (1a, freedom of religion).

People are welcome in from the US because the Constitution applies to them.  And unless proven they have Chyna-Virus (innocent until proven guilty), there is no need for 14 day quarantine.

Also plan for tent type medical centers with help from the guard in case hospitals get over run.


So my question mainly is a curious one because would we as pro 2a supporters treat this like how the anti 2a people do "I believe in the 2a right, but...).  "I believe in the constitution, but we should still make healthy people 14 day quarantine.  Stuff like that.

sweden

If I were Governor, I would have declared martial law, disbanded the government and stood up a provisional one that formally recognizes US statehood over "illegal occupation", and created a colony on Molokai for the infected.

But that's just me.   

So pretty much everyone here is for the Constitution/Bill of Rights.  2a shall not be infringed, etc...

So if you were gov/mayor, what would you have done to combat CV?

Ige/Kirk mandated a 14 day quarantine for all those incoming, even if not sick.  Is this unconstitutional?  There is a part about freely being able to travel between states, but to me it sounds like  a loop hole. They are allowing people in the state (free travel), but once here, they have to stay home for 14 days.

For me, if I were in charge, Is there a part that protects business from being closed by the government?  But for churches, I would ask them to close temporary.  Key word is ask, not mandate.  And mention and stress the reason why I cannot do shut downs is because of the rights the people have (1a, freedom of religion).

People are welcome in from the US because the Constitution applies to them.  And unless proven they have Chyna-Virus (innocent until proven guilty), there is no need for 14 day quarantine.

Also plan for tent type medical centers with help from the guard in case hospitals get over run.


So my question mainly is a curious one because would we as pro 2a supporters treat this like how the anti 2a people do "I believe in the 2a right, but...).  "I believe in the constitution, but we should still make healthy people 14 day quarantine.  Stuff like that.

Opposite of what flapp wants to do.  All jokes aside, I would do the following.

Lock all travel to the islands
MASSIVE I mean massive testing all free to citizens in the easiest way (drive through freeway tier)
Mandatory masks and temperature checks
After test results do actual contact tracing to find every single infection plausible
Once that is over open everything back up (ideally lockdown is 30-90 days-ish)
All incoming flights are tested and screened or quarantined. All flights from hotzones are banned.

Basically do what many Asian countries did.  But more open and free. 

Using actual science to solve issues.  Masks help and if you know who the infected are transmitting is harder.  Our state has the right ideas sorta but the execution was a failure for the most part.


As for the question on freedom, that's a bit hard to answer,  I personally believe in true freedom unless you infringe on another persons freedom.  You are free to be infected but not free to infect tier.  If you don't want to wear a mask then that's your choice but if you not wearing the mask infects others that's a big no-no.   Getting the balance is the hardest.  As for travel you are free not to travel to Hawaii if you don't want to get tested etc.  That's your freedom just like a business is free to tell you to leave.  Both sides deserve freedom.

As for churches,  you are free to practice your religion as long as you don't break the rules like anything else.  You are not magically exempt because of religion.

New zealand is #goals.   They are fully open, no masks and virus free.

Opposite of what flapp wants to do.  All jokes aside, I would do the following.

Lock all travel to the islands
MASSIVE I mean massive testing all free to citizens in the easiest way (drive through freeway tier)
Mandatory masks and temperature checks
After test results do actual contact tracing to find every single infection plausible
Once that is over open everything back up (ideally lockdown is 30-90 days-ish)
All incoming flights are tested and screened or quarantined. All flights from hotzones are banned.

Basically do what many Asian countries did.  But more open and free. 

Using actual science to solve issues.  Masks help and if you know who the infected are transmitting is harder.  Our state has the right ideas sorta but the execution was a failure for the most part.


As for the question on freedom, that's a bit hard to answer,  I personally believe in true freedom unless you infringe on another persons freedom.  You are free to be infected but not free to infect tier.  If you don't want to wear a mask then that's your choice but if you not wearing the mask infects others that's a big no-no.   Getting the balance is the hardest.  As for travel you are free not to travel to Hawaii if you don't want to get tested etc.  That's your freedom just like a business is free to tell you to leave.  Both sides deserve freedom.

As for churches,  you are free to practice your religion as long as you don't break the rules like anything else.  You are not magically exempt because of religion.

New zealand is #goals.   They are fully open, no masks and virus free.

The original tests available in February were in very short supply, and they took a week or more for turnaround.  Also, Hawaii did not have the test equipment to run them, so the samples were shipped to the mainland to then wait for a result.

Only in mid-March was a better commercially available test approved by the FDA.  Still in short supply due to worldwide demand, the test t least came back in 2-3 days.

So, knowing those are the FACTS, you could not have magically implemented "MASSIVE I mean massive testing all free to citizens" in Hawaii.

The original tests available in February were in very short supply, and they took a week or more for turnaround.  Also, Hawaii did not have the test equipment to run them, so the samples were shipped to the mainland to then wait for a result.

Only in mid-March was a better commercially available test approved by the FDA.  Still in short supply due to worldwide demand, the test t least came back in 2-3 days.

So, knowing those are the FACTS, you could not have magically implemented "MASSIVE I mean massive testing all free to citizens" in Hawaii.

There were tests not made in the USA.  New Zealand did it, Taiwan did it.  MANY countries did it.  So its not some mythical possibility.

The models were wrong. The IHME model that was touted early was very wrong.
The mortality rate is still low. In 2017 over 600 people died from the flu in this State alone. Consider that.

The models were wrong. The IHME model that was touted early was very wrong.
The mortality rate is still low. In 2017 over 600 people died from the flu in this State alone. Consider that.

Ah the old its not that bad only some people dying argument.   Yet at the same you preach lets protect all the unborn babies.   At least be consistent on the value of "human life".

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Not sure what your definition of low is...but I think that's a decent amount of people dying.

sweden

Sweden.
It is a proper noun so should be capitalized.
They are one of the few countries that in this case
make sense. Most everything else they do is bat Schiff
crazy.

I would have let life and death go on as normal.
Although,  I have to admit I don't miss the tourists.

I still shake hands, Aloha hug, use cash, and pretty
much carry on as normal.

But this whole Democrat engineered "crisis"
reminds me of hotel California.
"You can check in anytime you like but you can never leave".
Sounds like Hell.

Sweden.
It is a proper noun so should be capitalized.
They are one of the few countries that in this case
make sense. Most everything else they do is bat Schiff
crazy.

I would have let life and death go on as normal.
Although,  I have to admit I don't miss the tourists.

I still shake hands, Aloha hug, use cash, and pretty
much carry on as normal.

But this whole Democrat engineered "crisis"
reminds me of hotel California.
"You can check in anytime you like but you can never leave".
Sounds like Hell.

It bothers me that people point to places like Sweden as models for the US to follow.

The population of Sweden is about 10.3M.  Of that, about 2.6M come from migrant backgrounds, most after WWII.

The US has 328M people, and an ILLEGAL ALIEN population estimated to be in the range of 10M - 25M.

Our illegal alien population alone is as big as, or bigger than, Sweden's total population.

In 2010 45.8% of the country's GDP was collected as taxes, the second highest among OECD countries, and nearly double the percentage in the US or South Korea.

Sweden has one of the most highly developed welfare states in the world.

A country such as the US, broken up into 50 mostly autonomous states plus territories, with 33 times the population, and a foundation that values individual liberty over a Constitutional Monarchy can't possibly implement domestic programs and policies the same way as Sweden and achieve the same results.

Sweden also covers 173,732 sq mi, whereas the US is 3.8M sq mi.

There really is no intelligent way to squeeze the US into a model like Sweden.

Ah the old its not that bad only some people dying argument.   Yet at the same you preach lets protect all the unborn babies.   At least be consistent on the value of "human life".

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Not sure what your definition of low is...but I think that's a decent amount of people dying.

abortion and the current situation with a virus are 2 separate arguments and issues for that matter. Don't conflate those 2 topics and don't attack me with that method or try to emotionalize things. You and I don't agree on a lot of things but the common denominator is the 2a or at least some resemblance to it.
that model showed a mortality rate of 2.8% in the U.S.

It bothers me that people point to places like Sweden as models for the US to follow.

The population of Sweden is about 10.3M.  Of that, about 2.6M come from migrant backgrounds, most after WWII.

The US has 328M people, and an ILLEGAL ALIEN population estimated to be in the range of 10M - 25M.

Our illegal alien population alone is as big as, or bigger than, Sweden's total population.

In 2010 45.8% of the country's GDP was collected as taxes, the second highest among OECD countries, and nearly double the percentage in the US or South Korea.

Sweden has one of the most highly developed welfare states in the world.

A country such as the US, broken up into 50 mostly autonomous states plus territories, with 33 times the population, and a foundation that values individual liberty over a Constitutional Monarchy can't possibly implement domestic programs and policies the same way as Sweden and achieve the same results.

Sweden also covers 173,732 sq mi, whereas the US is 3.8M sq mi.

There really is no intelligent way to squeeze the US into a model like Sweden.

what other options are there? Stay hunkered down. The population is already gripped in fear. Yet we still have rent, food to purchase and mortgages to be paid. We have become so risk averse.

abortion and the current situation with a virus are 2 separate arguments and issues for that matter. Don't conflate those 2 topics and don't attack me with that method.
that model showed a mortality rate of 2.8% in the U.S.

But how can you value "life" in one way and not in another it makes no sense? Unless you only value certain life or certain life more than others.

2.8% of America is around 9 million.  Are you saying 9mil people dying is no big deal?  You know that's 3000 times less deaths than on 911.

what other options are there? Stay hunkered down. The population is already gripped in fear. Yet we still have rent, food to purchase and mortgages to be paid. We have become so risk averse.

Fear is how the Dems get elected.  The pandemic was a crisis handed to them on a silver platter, and they are using it to give themselves unconstitutional powers they could not have dreamed of taking without such a "terrorizing situation."

It bothers me that people point to places like Sweden as models for the US to follow.

The population of Sweden is about 10.3M.  Of that, about 2.6M come from migrant backgrounds, most after WWII.

The US has 328M people, and an ILLEGAL ALIEN population estimated to be in the range of 10M - 25M.

Our illegal alien population alone is as big as, or bigger than, Sweden's total population.

In 2010 45.8% of the country's GDP was collected as taxes, the second highest among OECD countries, and nearly double the percentage in the US or South Korea.

Sweden has one of the most highly developed welfare states in the world.

A country such as the US, broken up into 50 mostly autonomous states plus territories, with 33 times the population, and a foundation that values individual liberty over a Constitutional Monarchy can't possibly implement domestic programs and policies the same way as Sweden and achieve the same results.

Sweden also covers 173,732 sq mi, whereas the US is 3.8M sq mi.

There really is no intelligent way to squeeze the US into a model like Sweden.

i'm not saying to adopt the whole Swedish model, just the corona virus model...

But how can you value "life" in one way and not in another it makes no sense? Unless you only value certain life or certain life more than others.

2.8% of America is around 9 million.  Are you saying 9mil people dying is no big deal?  You know that's 3000 times less deaths than on 911.

NO I DID NOT SAY THAT I VALUE CERTAIN LIVES OVER OTHERS. The risk is there for EVERYONE. Let's not turn this into an emotional abortion debate where YOU ASSUME what I VALUE. YOU HAVE NO FREAKING CLUE. JUST STOP TWISTING MY WORDS AND TURNING THEM INTO SOME EMOTIONAL PLEA.

There were tests not made in the USA.  New Zealand did it, Taiwan did it.  MANY countries did it.  So its not some mythical possibility.

The issue that the other countries have is they do not have the freedoms that the USA does.  You mentioned it above,  that's the hard balancing act.  Use 2a as a perfect example.  Can we ban "assault rifles", mags over 10rds all for the greater good of the nation?

For me, I would treat Chyna-virus like the 2a.  If the Bill of Rights/Constitution.  I also believe under the 2a, people should be allowed to own an Abrams (per Jo). Aw shit, I just derailed the topic. 

But how can you value "life" in one way and not in another it makes no sense? Unless you only value certain life or certain life more than others.

2.8% of America is around 9 million.  Are you saying 9mil people dying is no big deal?  You know that's 3000 times less deaths than on 911.

I don't value life.  If someone had a time machine and went back to 1936 or before and killed Hitler, I would be OK with that.  Even Hitlers mom/dad so he was never born.  All G.

But if that happened, then how would someone know to go back and remove Hitler?  Awww snap, time travelers paradox.

NO I DID NOT SAY THAT I VALUE CERTAIN LIVES OVER OTHERS. The risk is there for EVERYONE. Let's not turn this into an emotional abortion debate where YOU ASSUME what I VALUE. YOU HAVE NO FREAKING CLUE. JUST STOP TWISTING MY WORDS AND TURNING THEM INTO SOME EMOTIONAL PLEA.

I believe Heavies already warned him about threadjacking.

He just can't stop.

 

i'm not saying to adopt the whole Swedish model, just the corona virus model...

Still, it's because of their economic, welfare, and socialized medical services that Sweden can do the things that we can't.

Imagine Hitler  Trump dictating that all states must comply with federal mandates saying where supplies are needed, who is allowed masks from our limited stock, and what businesses are to be locked down.

The governors would be in court so fast, .....

If we are talking only about Hawaii, that's a different scope of problems.  Island.  Travel.  Supplies.  Economic damage.